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Amarr and Caldari - Capitals and Subcapitals!
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Kietay Ayari
Caldari State
#1 - 2011-11-24 19:16:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Kietay Ayari
Hello skill talking people! I have a question for everyone to talk about today!

This character is my super best character and is 100% Caldari (because that is the best you can be ever, forever). I also have another character who is just a tiny baby right now. She will be Amarr (second best you can be ever, forever). What I want to do is focus on training one of them up to fly capital ships while the other gets to do all the fun tech 2 and tech 3 supcap stuffs. Now you see my question! Which race should I pick to train to capitals, and which to subcapitals.

Things I have considered:

  • Caldari has the super fun Tengu and super good Ewar for subcaptials, but Amarr has the super good Guardian and super good fleet battleships

  • The Caldari Carrier is super pretty, probably the most pretty ship in the entire game if you do not count the Ferox, while the Amarr Dreadnaught is the best looking dreadnaught (not saying much there) But the problem with this is I think the Amarr carrier might be more useful?

  • If I focus on Caldari subcapitals I can do fun missions all the time while the Amarr character stays in nulsec and explodes things.

    • Please add to my list of things to consider. But mostly just tell me which race you would focus on which set of ships and also pros and cons of each, like I have, but make yours actually good because you know real stuff about the game that is not just how pretty things are!

    No yelling please!

    Edit: Also please tell me if the Caldari dreadnaught is silly or not. I know people do not like missiles (and it is ugly) but I do not see many of them used and would like to know why!

    Ferox #1
    1-Up Mushroom
    Imperial Academy
    Amarr Empire
    #2 - 2011-11-24 20:33:11 UTC
    Difficult Question, You Ask. In all my wisdom I suggest you train your amarr baby for their awesome subcaps, BUT WAIT, their caps rock too! So yes, go ahead and train for both!

    As for your caldari, meh, I don't like missiles
    5 Senses In A Person... 4 Seasons In A Year... 3 Colors In A Stoplight... 2 Poles On The Earth... ONLY 1-UP MUSHROOM!!!  If You Like My Sig, Like Me!   Remember EVE is EVErything!
    Tau Cabalander
    Retirement Retreat
    Working Stiffs
    #3 - 2011-11-25 05:58:29 UTC
    Amarr battleships and capitals. Caldari sub-capitals.

    I'm primarily a Caldari pilot, and can pilot Caldari capitals. I'm currently cross-training Minmatar, as they use missiles and projectiles.
    Kietay Ayari
    Caldari State
    #4 - 2011-11-25 07:30:33 UTC
    :O I appreciate people answering the question but remember it is absolutely pointless unless you give reasons with your suggestion! >_> I'm not going to base my next billion years of training on someone's opinion ;D

    Thanks though! Please keep trying~

    Ferox #1
    Tau Cabalander
    Retirement Retreat
    Working Stiffs
    #5 - 2011-11-25 16:53:41 UTC
    You came to the wrong place if you don't want opinions, because that's all anyone can give you.

    As a Caldari pilot, you are the top of the heap for PvE but the bottom for PvP. If you want to change that, you can crosstrain to Gallente or Minmatar for PvP, which have some skill crossover.

    As Amarr, you own in the larger ships (armor is slow and heavy) and are poor in the smaller ones. Slave implants also increase armor, and there is no equivalent for shield. Amarr ships also have huge amounts of grid and capacitor as a result of being the laser race, but it also means their battleships and capitals have huge amounts of these critical attributes for larger ships.

    There are just too many reasons. I could write many epic walls of text on the subject.


    As I posted recently in advice on caps to train

    Tau Cabalander wrote:
    Currently (my opinion):

    * Carriers: Amarr > Gallente > Caldari >> Minmatar
    * Dreads: Amarr > Gallente > Minmatar >> Caldari
    * SC: Gallente > Amarr > Caldari > Minmatar
    * Titan: Amarr > Gallente > Caldari > Minmatar

    Amarr and Gallente are currently pretty good across the board, with Caldari and Minmatar battling over last place. Blink

    Minmatar are getting a boost this winter, as are Gallente. Shield tanks (primarily Caldari) will be nerfed less than the armor tanks. The devs also seem wiling to consider a shield equivalent to the Slave implant set (and a armor equivalent of the Crystal implant set).

    It will be interesting to see how this all pans out.
    Kietay Ayari
    Caldari State
    #6 - 2011-11-25 19:59:38 UTC
    o_o I dont mind opinions I just want your reasoning behind it! Also I already know for sure I am training Amarr and Caldari, and that one of them is going to focus on capitals while the other focuses on subcapticals :| What I want to know is which you think I should do for each of the two races.

    I think I should have gone to GD for this :|

    Ferox #1
    CausticS0da
    Shrubbery Acquisitions
    Blohm and Voss Shipyards Alliance
    #7 - 2011-12-08 20:40:58 UTC
    Amarr capitals, Caldari sub-cap IMO. Amarr caps due to their superiority over Caldari caps in almost every department - dps/tank/no ammo change, slaves etc. Apparently shield caps get will get boosted with implants etc though so who knows the future.

    Caldari sub caps are fine and give opportunity to enjoy ewar and 100mn tengu amongst other things.

    Personally I wouldn't stick to one race- maybe stick to two per character? In a way I respect your way of playing though so good luck. Note I haven't been playing for a few months but I didn't see anything in the patch notes to say that this has changed. I'm sure someone will correct me if it has.

    Hope this answer is ok for you.
    Tau Cabalander
    Retirement Retreat
    Working Stiffs
    #8 - 2011-12-09 22:45:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Tau Cabalander
    Kietay Ayari wrote:
    o_o I dont mind opinions I just want your reasoning behind it!

    There are just too many reasons to cover for all the capitals. Not just ships, but typical fleet compositions and tactics.

    This is why the typical response to questions about capitals is that you will know the answers when you are ready to use them.

    Example: Carriers (incomplete)

    * Only Amarr and Caldari get a resist bonus = best for fleet work as they can survive longer.
    * Only Amarr and Caldari get a cap transfer bonus = helpful in fleets, especially when bumping is involved.
    * Only Gallente get a damage bonus = best for solo ratting.
    * Only Minmatar get a rep bonus = best for wormhole work, otherwise they are primaried first.
    * Amarr doesn't get a shield rep range bonus, so it can't rep a large control tower.

    Amarr Archon is #1.
    * Amarr, being the laser using race, have ships with lots of grid and capacitor as a racial feature.
    * Amarr have the fastest capacitor recovery (invaluable after jumping).
    * Amarr, being the heavy armor tanking race, have all their ships with lots of armor. Add in a resist bonus = win.
    * Amarr can fit the most reppers.
    * Amarr has the best triage fit.
    * Amarr has the best Pantheon fit.

    Gallente Thanatos is #2.
    * Gallente is a stepping-stone to the best supercarrier.
    * Gallente has the largest drone bay.

    Minmatar Nidhoggur is #3.
    * Minmatar is odd: it shield tanks when repping armor, or armor tanks when repping shield (cap shield reps use a lot of CPU).
    * Minmatar has the worst tank (slot layout plus fitting limitations), which makes sense since it is a bigger threat.

    Caldari Chimera is #4.
    * Caldari has capacitor issues, and usually requires faction power relays.
    * Caldari shield tanks.
    * Has an impressive active tank when not being neuted or alpha-ed.

    * It is an armor tanking universe.
    * There is no equivalent for Slave implants for shield tanks.
    * Armor tanks have more buffer than shield tanks on nearly every ship in EVE.
    * Shield tanks are better active tanks than armor, with the caveat that they have less buffer so die faster if they can't rep (more vulnerable to capacitor warfare).
    * Shield tanks don't get the full benefit of fleet boosters; they lose the 10% shield after every jump.

    Now that you've trained for a carrier, what options do you have?

    * Amarr: best all-around dread, second best supercarrier (most EHP), best titan.
    * Gallente: highest DPS dread, best supercarrier (most DPS), second best titan.
    * Minmatar: (previous to Crucible) worst dread (split weapon system), worst supercarrier, shield tanked titan
    * Caladari: dread can only hit structures (but best damage projection), supercarrier and titan are shield tanked (armor has Slaves).

    Dreads, supercarriers, and titans would be a whole lot of more points... and then there are the sub-caps. Do you really expect anyone to detail everything?
    Jack Cavanaugh
    Caldari Provisions
    Caldari State
    #9 - 2011-12-14 17:51:59 UTC
    If you plan things out right, you can cross-skill to a number of other race's ships with minimal additional training.
    Kyt Thrace
    Lightspeed Enterprises
    Goonswarm Federation
    #10 - 2011-12-14 18:36:35 UTC
    My reasoning:

    Caldari - Greatest race ever, beautiful, smart, & kick ass

    Gallente - their ships smell like rotten dead roadkill

    Amarr - the chanting, just want to shoot myself

    Minmatar - Ugly, duct tape, anyone have some soap

    Just my two cents

    R.I.P. Vile Rat
    RavenPaine
    RaVeN Alliance
    #11 - 2011-12-16 21:51:29 UTC
    I think you might re-classify how you catagorize your skills at some point. Race may not be the commanding criteria.

    Caldari in general have many limitations. They are inherantly *shield and missile* only. With a few exceptions. So your sub-cap/Caldari only designation, might be expanded to accept all races. BC V, Recon V, good drones, etc, can be applied across the board.

    Amarr on the other hand: You will train for perfect gunnery. Perfect armor. Maybe good drones and good nav. All these skills will also apply to the other 3 armor races and you most likely will see how many more ships you could easily excell in.

    As you advance through the Capital ship skillpath you will notice the same opportunities to cross train. If you have capital ships IV, the jump drive skills, Fighters IV etc, you will realize its easier to train another BS V on this toon, than it is to buy/train all those skills on the other toon.

    There is no "bad" race. And I like that your taking your toons in 2 different directions. What you DON'T want is 2 characters that do the exact same thing.

    Add:
    1. Phoenix is Fugly
    2. Having your chars in 2 different environments has advantages and disadvantages.
    3. Ammar carrier is arguably the best for armor/defence applications.
    4. Amarr Dread has some limitations on damage selectivity.
    Kailen Thorn
    Release the KRAKEN.
    #12 - 2012-01-18 15:46:00 UTC
    Kietay Ayari wrote:
    Hello skill talking people! I have a question for everyone to talk about today!

    This character is my super best character and is 100% Caldari (because that is the best you can be ever, forever). I also have another character who is just a tiny baby right now. She will be Amarr (second best you can be ever, forever). What I want to do is focus on training one of them up to fly capital ships while the other gets to do all the fun tech 2 and tech 3 supcap stuffs. Now you see my question! Which race should I pick to train to capitals, and which to subcapitals.

    Things I have considered:

  • Caldari has the super fun Tengu and super good Ewar for subcaptials, but Amarr has the super good Guardian and super good fleet battleships

  • The Caldari Carrier is super pretty, probably the most pretty ship in the entire game if you do not count the Ferox, while the Amarr Dreadnaught is the best looking dreadnaught (not saying much there) But the problem with this is I think the Amarr carrier might be more useful?

  • If I focus on Caldari subcapitals I can do fun missions all the time while the Amarr character stays in nulsec and explodes things.

    • Please add to my list of things to consider. But mostly just tell me which race you would focus on which set of ships and also pros and cons of each, like I have, but make yours actually good because you know real stuff about the game that is not just how pretty things are!

    No yelling please!

    Edit: Also please tell me if the Caldari dreadnaught is silly or not. I know people do not like missiles (and it is ugly) but I do not see many of them used and would like to know why!


    I felt i should just say, with your views, you are my future eve wife and i will vote u leader of the state... (caldari chars only tho ^^)

    As for susgestions... since your using 2 characters, get your amarr character (should be caldari) into a tank ship, and get ur caldari character into a naga... my reasons...

    Join a 0.0 corp/alliance and rat sanctums, use ur amarr character to tank the sanctum rats, while the cladari character deals the DPS (good naga skills = 1.1/1.2K DPS with blasters) <<< this is what i do, but with a mate...

    if ur focusing ur skills, and i havnt tried this yet, get a frig with a MWD and orbit the sanctum, with the rats shooting you, and use the naga to pew everything ^^

    Plus naga is ownage in pvp. I am still learning to love missiles tho, after naga dps, its hard =(
    Palladias
    Doomheim
    #13 - 2012-01-18 21:00:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Palladias
    Just wanted to mention the caldari dread is, at least for now, the least-loved dread of them all. I fly all caldari myself, save for a couple amarr ships i've recently gotten into. The biggest problem is getting citadel torpedoes to hit anything, other than a POS, very well. On occasion you get the sat-stationary capital ship pilot without a clue and melt him flat, but for the most part anything moving faster than 0m/s will speed tank a sizable portion of your torp damage. As far as tank goes, I can't really complain much about it. The burst tank is good and that's all you really want on a dread, enough burst to get through siege mode in-tact so the carrier(s) can take over once more.

    Other than that, just make sure you can fit and fly a guardian for any of those fleets where your predominantly shield-tanky caldari ships are not so warmly welcomed. Armor comps skills, remote armor rep, and hull upgrades are all skills you should probably have anyway and amarr cruiser V gives you (with no additional training for laser turrets) two sexy recons, ham legion, sacrilege, and damnation.
    Tau Cabalander
    Retirement Retreat
    Working Stiffs
    #14 - 2012-01-19 20:57:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Tau Cabalander
    Note that there are incoming changes:

    * Capital Shield Transporter CPU reduction.
    * Siege Warfare bonuses applied like armor bonuses.
    * Tech 2 Triage module gets a capacitor use reduction bonus.
    * New deadspace shield omni resistance modules.

    I think Crucible also changed Minmatar carriers for the better, so I suspect Caldari may be solidly at the bottom rank for all capitals.

    We'll have to wait and see how it all turns out.

    EDIT: For what it is worth, i am a Caldari capital pilot, and I do own a Chimera (rusting in a hangar), but I do try to be unbiased when disseminating information.
    Kailen Thorn
    Release the KRAKEN.
    #15 - 2012-01-19 22:07:55 UTC
    Tau Cabalander wrote:
    Note that there are incoming changes:

    * Capital Shield Transporter CPU reduction.
    * Siege Warfare bonuses applied like armor bonuses.
    * Tech 2 Triage module gets a capacitor use reduction bonus.
    * New deadspace shield omni resistance modules.

    I think Crucible also changed Minmatar carriers for the better, so I suspect Caldari may be solidly at the bottom rank for all capitals.

    We'll have to wait and see how it all turns out.

    EDIT: For what it is worth, i am a Caldari capital pilot, and I do own a Chimera (rusting in a hangar), but I do try to be unbiased when disseminating information.


    I will put that beautiful chimera to a good home if u no longer want it... i am learning caldari carriers atm and dont have the isk (spent the last week casually ratting... all to make 100 mill, probs another 900 to go =P) yes that sucks, but no, i dont have a lot of time to rat, hence why ill give it a good home. Ill love it, and polish it and take it round the block to it can pee on some raiden everyday, i promise.

    << reasons for going for caldari carrier... well it looks the best and is caldari, nuff said ^^ Its what i want, no matter the state its in compared to other boats, and its been my goal since i joined. Plus, if u pwn with it (and its currently the worst) that makes u a dam fekin good piolet.
    Ryuce
    #16 - 2012-01-20 07:44:13 UTC
    Palladias wrote:
    Just wanted to mention the caldari dread is, at least for now, the least-loved dread of them all. I fly all caldari myself, save for a couple amarr ships i've recently gotten into. The biggest problem is getting citadel torpedoes to hit anything, other than a POS, very well. On occasion you get the sat-stationary capital ship pilot without a clue and melt him flat, but for the most part anything moving faster than 0m/s will speed tank a sizable portion of your torp damage. As far as tank goes, I can't really complain much about it. The burst tank is good and that's all you really want on a dread, enough burst to get through siege mode in-tact so the carrier(s) can take over once more.

    While I prefer Amarr caps myself due to the above arguments, Caldari dreads supposedly have a decent burst tank, the weapons don't use cap and enables you to select your damage type, which are quiet usefull abilities when doing POS shooting. As mentioned above the Phoenix is pretty **** when participating in cap fights. However, it's been a while since the last big cap fight involving dreads. So how will your alliance/corp be using the dread? If you are only doing POS shooting the Caldari won't be all ****.

    I'm not trying to make you choose Caldari, I don't fly it myself, but the Phoenix is not all ****. I loved my Revelation, but the damage selection is somewhat limited, which from time to time suck.