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Meta Modules and the Fungal Bloom of 0.0 Industry
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Michael Ignis Archangel
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1 - 2014-09-15 01:29:42 UTC
Apologies in advance if this has been covered in another thread somewhere - I did attempt a few searches but you never know with the search functionRoll. If not, lock me up and link me to the other one please!

One of the last remaining barriers to self-sufficiency in 0.0 is the importation of meta modules that are not dropped in your particular region of space. I propose to solve this issue via some sort of alchemy-esque process that ties into the revamp of invention we're seeing soon. I get it that there's not a huge problem here since most modules are relatively small, but nonetheless the problem does still exist.

My last piece of intro here is a "think of the newbros" line - while many doctrines require T2 this or that, the newbro is often forced to replace with meta as necessary. This would greatly assist in this function

Proposal:

1) Tool + Meta [x] mod + T1 BPC of the module's Meta 0 equivalent = chance to receive a Meta [x] "Nexus Chip"
2) Meta [x] Nexus Chip + T1 BPC of some other module = Meta [x] version BPC of that module.

Finer points:
Use of a tool or some sort of other consumable (RAMs or R.Db - anything locally source-able anywhere)
Nexus chips are small... like really small. BPC small.
The Meta BPCs take no materials other than the Meta 0 version, and a certain amount of time.
The jobs are installable with multiple runs so that you can achieve multiple-run BPCs for Meta modules.

I think this would be interesting in creating a gameplay-based pricing variable for trash meta modules, but also would be sufficiently annoying so as not to totally wreck the market for the more-sought-afters.

It's intended to require as little modification to the existing item list & market as possible. I realize it might be heavy on industry coding, but I'm hand-wavingly assuming that that's all in pristine shape being new and all.
Komi Toran
Perkone
Caldari State
#2 - 2014-09-15 02:59:25 UTC
Michael Ignis Archangel wrote:
One of the last remaining barriers to self-sufficiency...

You know, I never understood why, in a game that's largely an economics simulator, people consider self-sufficiency for null sec to be a worthy design goal.
Michael Ignis Archangel
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#3 - 2014-09-15 03:24:24 UTC
Thanks for at least being honest and deleting the parts of the OP you didn't devote any synapses to.

I'll give you more credit and try to address what you might be talking about.

If you're claiming this is unlike the real world, it's not. Most if not all economic zones now have at least the nominal ability to manufacture all goods; economic factors prevent this from occuring in reality (i.e. someone else does it better or cheaper). This would mimic that by giving people the nominal ability to manufacture different goods, while simulating some of the 'economic barriers' by adding in the inefficiencies inherent in the process that was suggested.

If you're saying this will destroy the economics of importing, well again I disagree. For alliances with sophisticated logistical backbones, and 0.0 areas that have become market hubs, I doubt importing would be affected. This is meant to be a sort of "backyard steel" option to fill in what I've seen to be relative gaps in the market. It would also create a whole new set of choices and economic balances to be manipulated - I'd expect trade in the Meta Nexus Chips to be robust, and a healthy contract market for the BPCs is likely too.

TL:DR I don't think "must import this from Jita" counts as "economics." More options should be available.
Komi Toran
Perkone
Caldari State
#4 - 2014-09-15 04:25:50 UTC
Michael Ignis Archangel wrote:
Thanks for at least being honest and deleting the parts of the OP you didn't devote any synapses to.

If the premise is wrong, then there is no need to follow the argument further asside from morbid curiosity: like watching a train trying to cross a chasm when the bridge is out.
Michael Ignis Archangel wrote:
If you're claiming this is unlike the real world, it's not. Most if not all economic zones now have at least the nominal ability to manufacture all goods; economic factors prevent this from occuring in reality (i.e. someone else does it better or cheaper).

Metas are not manufactured; they are mined. Now, the asteroids that produce them do shoot back, but they are mined all the same. That makes them a resource. So the proper real-world analogue would not be any sort of manufacture, like cars or watches, but rather things like steel, oil, and pepper.
Michael Ignis Archangel wrote:
If you're saying this will destroy the economics of importing...

No, not really. I don't see the point of your actual proposal, and don't think it would impact much of anything. I mean, we're now using industry slots that could be actually inventing and building T2 modules in order to save... not much of anything, as you still need to move the resource volume to make the T1 version in your space, which is likely more space than the module itself.
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#5 - 2014-09-15 06:10:03 UTC
Posting in support of pepper.

Also posting because the devs have stated at least once in the past that while they do want industry to take place in nullsec, they do not want any one region of space to operate self-sufficiently without need of the others. That's why wormholes will never get ice and why highsec will never get moon mining for T2 materials.
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#6 - 2014-09-15 08:39:13 UTC
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
Posting in support of pepper.

Also posting because the devs have stated at least once in the past that while they do want industry to take place in nullsec, they do not want any one region of space to operate self-sufficiently without need of the others. That's why wormholes will never get ice and why highsec will never get moon mining for T2 materials.

And why lowsec will never get tools to produce in scale like high or null get, nor undisturbed space (low class production holes, etc.) like W-space.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp
Kell Braugh
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#7 - 2014-09-15 19:33:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Kell Braugh
Didn't the devs just say they are removing the whole meta-item bonus from invention anyways?

CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Meta Item removal: Meta Item consumption to affect success chance is messy. It only affects modules, not ships and has a formula that is full of exceptions. Those will not be reimbursed as they can be used independently from Invention.


source: http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/lighting-the-invention-bulb
Sara Tosa
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#8 - 2014-09-16 11:02:23 UTC
Kell Braugh wrote:
Didn't the devs just say they are removing the whole meta-item bonus from invention anyways?

CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Meta Item removal: Meta Item consumption to affect success chance is messy. It only affects modules, not ships and has a formula that is full of exceptions. Those will not be reimbursed as they can be used independently from Invention.


source: http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/lighting-the-invention-bulb

it -should- (*) be part of module tiericide, so in theory someday we should be able to build all the un-meta'ed items.

(*)its a ccp promise(TM)
Dream Five
Renegade Pleasure Androids
#9 - 2014-09-16 12:13:34 UTC
Let's not do this as it will make the game more boring from a logistics perspective. Next thing you'll propose to seed all station markets with all items at a flat rate just like on Singularity? :)
Tabyll Altol
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#10 - 2014-09-16 14:04:15 UTC
So that would mean if i got an meta 14 mod, i can produce officer/deadspace-equipment with and T1-Blueprint.


Yeah sure lets implement this..... Not.

-1
Fer'isam K'ahn
SAS Veterinarians
#11 - 2014-09-16 14:11:16 UTC
you guys don't like to talk... cause you threads rub back to back here... https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=373808&find=unread
Michael Ignis Archangel
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#12 - 2014-09-16 20:32:18 UTC
For the record, I was first Big smile

I should clarify - this is intended for Meta 1-4 only.

I based the idea off of something said at FanFest that they would like players to be able to manufacture everything. That lead to me thinking how awful it would be to have to trade dropped Meta 1-4 modules BPCs in size on the contracts market, and how this issue could be circumvented while adding what I think is some additional gameplay.

I can see the point that these resources are "mined," and should therefore be exclusive. I disagree, though, because every other similar resource needs to go through some processing before it can be turned into something you put on a ship. That, and there's even alchemy to get around some of the unavailability of the only other region-specific resources (moon materials).

If I'm mistaken about the intent to tiericide & make these modules buildable, may bob strike this thread (and the other impostor one over there) locked.
Komi Toran
Perkone
Caldari State
#13 - 2014-09-16 23:25:08 UTC
Michael Ignis Archangel wrote:
I based the idea off of something said at FanFest that they would like players to be able to manufacture everything. That lead to me thinking how awful it would be to have to trade dropped Meta 1-4 modules BPCs in size on the contracts market, and how this issue could be circumvented while adding what I think is some additional gameplay.

Unless I'm mistaken, there's been no announcement for how CCP plans for us to make Meta objects.
Michael Ignis Archangel wrote:
I can see the point that these resources are "mined," and should therefore be exclusive. I disagree, though, because every other similar resource needs to go through some processing before it can be turned into something you put on a ship.

Arbalest launchers are similar to phased muon disrupters. Neither resource needs to be processed before it can be put on a ship.
Michael Ignis Archangel wrote:
That, and there's even alchemy to get around some of the unavailability of the only other region-specific resources (moon materials).

Moon materials are not the only other region-specific resource. Try getting armor plates in Vale, for example, or mercoxit in Tash-Murkon, or helium isotopes in Metropolis.