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Skill loss on pod loss without updating
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Spazturtle
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#21 - 2014-09-14 21:53:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Spazturtle
Clone levels are one of the most ******** and stupid parts of the game, they literally add nothing but annoyance to the game.

When upgrading a clone costs twice or more what a frigate costs then all it does is stop older players from going out in smaller ships.

With current clone mechanics the longer you have played the game the less content is available to you.

All clone levels do is increase the time you spend ship spinning in space, listening to other people having fun over comms.

Also CCP have already said that it doesn't work as an ISK sink so that argument can't be made.
Zan Shiro
Doomheim
#22 - 2014-09-14 21:59:29 UTC
Igor Nappi wrote:
I agree that the current mechanic is a bit silly. If dying needs to remain an ISK sink, I'd like to see at least an option for 'clone insurance' which would enable you to pay a fixed amount of ISK for automatic clone updates for a period of time.



If anything like ship insurance it would be kind of expensive. At least for the vets. We don't upgrade as much. I'd see insurance being kind of high to remember several months out.

Already have the clone cost disparity for higher sp to have a off balance mechanic. And somehow I'd see CCP applying the same (problematic) sliding scale here.

Why I am glad I made this mistake once or twice in my early years. I only lost a few easier 5's to retrain a few times....mistakes I try like hell to avoid now. But I also have the benenfit of a job I don't like lol. I get ample time to look like working on my ipad to see neocom say clone is green or its time shell out some isk again lol.

Now enter the I shouldn't need 3rd party whines....I like 3rd party. As neocom passes the time when I have server reboots I know takes minutes or you get the bad meeting people who seem to feel the need to make meetings go on much longer than they need to be. YOu stopped taking notes long ago...as they seem to like the sound of their voice and drone on with no new content lol.
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#23 - 2014-09-14 22:00:29 UTC
well, a while ago they lowered clone costs so those of us buying 156 mil and 203 mil clones were paying more for clones than ships. I don't mean bombers, I mean T2 fleet doctrines

If they were ever going to remove it, that was probably the time
Iain Cariaba
#24 - 2014-09-14 22:13:35 UTC
Spazturtle wrote:
Clone levels are one of the most ******** and stupid parts of the game, they literally add nothing but annoyance to the game.

When upgrading a clone costs twice or more what a frigate costs then all it does is stop older players from going out in smaller ships.

With current clone mechanics the longer you have played the game the less content is available to you.

All clone levels do is increase the time you spend ship spinning in space, listening to other people having fun over comms.

Also CCP have already said that it doesn't work as an ISK sink so that argument can't be made.

And at no time did I argue it's an isk sink. Considering I can send an alt to go rat for one hour and make more than an alpha level clone costs, your argument of clones being too expensive is invalid. The fact that you're unwilling to chance losing your precious clone because it supposedly costs too much is your choice, not a determination of the mechanics involved.

Igor Nappi wrote:
I assume I'm just feeding a troll here, but for example in this article the case is argued in some detail.

I'm a troll because I disagree with you and can back it up? That article is an opinion piece, not a statement of fact. The only part I agree with is the fact that clone costs should not increase exponentially with age, but I think they should be proportional to the SP reserved.

Igor Nappi wrote:
Any mechanic that unnecessarily dissuades people from participating in PVP is a bad one.

Read the forums for a while and you'll find someone who thinks everything disuades people from participating in PvP, even PvP itself. What makes you any more correct in your observation then those who think all PvP should be eliminated from highsec because they don't want to participate in PvP?
Spazturtle
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#25 - 2014-09-14 22:23:49 UTC
Iain Cariaba wrote:

And at no time did I argue it's an isk sink. Considering I can send an alt to go rat for one hour and make more than an alpha level clone costs, your argument of clones being too expensive is invalid. The fact that you're unwilling to chance losing your precious clone because it supposedly costs too much is your choice, not a determination of the mechanics involved.


And if you rat in a super carrier you could buy a new super carrier every 3 days, doesn't mean they are cheap.

Also not everyone pays for multiple accounts, many players just have 1 account. Time spent ratting to buy a upgraded clone is time wasted, nobody gets anything from it.

Also your 1 hour figure assumes that you only undock once a day. What if you want to go on 10 or 20 fleets on a day? Then that's up to 20 hours of ratting just to pay for your clone.
Komi Toran
Perkone
Caldari State
#26 - 2014-09-14 22:39:12 UTC
Iain Cariaba wrote:
If you get podded, you lose any implants you have plugged in, SP if your clone isn't updated, and the cost of a new updated clone. If you have no implants plugged in and have an up to date clone, then you lose only the cost of a new updated clone. Even though the price of medical clones go up as you need a larger clone, this cost is not difficult for someone needing that clone to come up with. Therefore potential SP loss is sometimes the only real penalty for losing a pod.

And why is that a problem?

It's a bit like saying that industrials should be forced to have 10 million in cargo before they are allowed to undock, otherwise, with insurance, there's no penalty for losing it.

If someone doesn't have implants, then they are not getting the benefit of implants, making it easier to kill their ship. Or they're not training as fast as normal. There's the penalty for flying around in an empty head. Why is another needed?

And no, I keep all my clones up to date and haven't lost a single skill point. I just find it mildly annoying.
Iain Cariaba
#27 - 2014-09-14 22:42:34 UTC
Spazturtle wrote:
Iain Cariaba wrote:

And at no time did I argue it's an isk sink. Considering I can send an alt to go rat for one hour and make more than an alpha level clone costs, your argument of clones being too expensive is invalid. The fact that you're unwilling to chance losing your precious clone because it supposedly costs too much is your choice, not a determination of the mechanics involved.


And if you rat in a super carrier you could buy a new super carrier every 3 days, doesn't mean they are cheap.

Also not everyone pays for multiple accounts, many players just have 1 account. Time spent ratting to buy a upgraded clone is time wasted, nobody gets anything from it.

Also your 1 hour figure assumes that you only undock once a day. What if you want to go on 10 or 20 fleets on a day? Then that's up to 20 hours of ratting just to pay for your clone.

So you instead spend 20 hours advancing the spin counter cause you don't want to rat. Again, that is your choice.
Spazturtle
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#28 - 2014-09-14 22:55:15 UTC
Iain Cariaba wrote:

So you instead spend 20 hours advancing the spin counter cause you don't want to rat. Again, that is your choice.


No instead of having fun on lots of fleets I wait for cruiser and up fleets.

You must be daft to think that spending 20 hours per day ratting is a good idea.
Iain Cariaba
#29 - 2014-09-14 23:06:16 UTC
Spazturtle wrote:
Iain Cariaba wrote:

So you instead spend 20 hours advancing the spin counter cause you don't want to rat. Again, that is your choice.


No instead of having fun on lots of fleets I wait for cruiser and up fleets.

You must be daft to think that spending 20 hours per day ratting is a good idea.

I'm not the one that said you'd have to spend 20 hours ratting to be in 20 fleets, that was you. Remember, this is a game about the choices you make. Spend 20 hours ratting, 20 hours ship spinning, or just wait for cruiser fleets, the choice is your's.
Spazturtle
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#30 - 2014-09-14 23:09:38 UTC
Iain Cariaba wrote:
Spazturtle wrote:
Iain Cariaba wrote:

So you instead spend 20 hours advancing the spin counter cause you don't want to rat. Again, that is your choice.


No instead of having fun on lots of fleets I wait for cruiser and up fleets.

You must be daft to think that spending 20 hours per day ratting is a good idea.

I'm not the one that said you'd have to spend 20 hours ratting to be in 20 fleets, that was you. Remember, this is a game about the choices you make. Spend 20 hours ratting, 20 hours ship spinning, or just wait for cruiser fleets, the choice is your's.


You have many other choices as well, you can chose not to play, or chose to play by smashing your face into the keayboard, or drink bleach and go on comms, doesn't mean any of those are good ideas or fun.


You have yet to give a valid reason as to why clone grades should remain in game, What do they add to the game?
NoLife NoFriends StillPosting
Doomheim
#31 - 2014-09-14 23:12:31 UTC
You are right OP. It is a pointless game mechanic.

There are lots of dumb things about this game and stubborn people who seem to think everything is fine.
Zan Shiro
Doomheim
#32 - 2014-09-15 00:24:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Zan Shiro
Spazturtle wrote:
Iain Cariaba wrote:
Spazturtle wrote:
Iain Cariaba wrote:

So you instead spend 20 hours advancing the spin counter cause you don't want to rat. Again, that is your choice.


No instead of having fun on lots of fleets I wait for cruiser and up fleets.

You must be daft to think that spending 20 hours per day ratting is a good idea.

I'm not the one that said you'd have to spend 20 hours ratting to be in 20 fleets, that was you. Remember, this is a game about the choices you make. Spend 20 hours ratting, 20 hours ship spinning, or just wait for cruiser fleets, the choice is your's.


You have many other choices as well, you can chose not to play, or chose to play by smashing your face into the keayboard, or drink bleach and go on comms, doesn't mean any of those are good ideas or fun.


You have yet to give a valid reason as to why clone grades should remain in game, What do they add to the game?



Adds consequences to the death. Ship depending, and in the case of the crew are in and their frp/srp....it can be clone costs that limit how often they can spit out players.

I could lacking clone costs spit out t1 frigates all day long. I am tau clone level, 30 mil a pop iirc. this keeps me from joy riding in say cheap t1 frigs. My clone is greater than cost of the damn ship lol. Which with max skills in many areas, maybe some 2-3% hardwires is very capable. In the case of hardwires...I could spring for these much easier no clone costs as well.

Move up in scale (t2/pirate costs or ship size like say BS and higher since cap capable) and even with a very liberal frp/srp...at some point if the meat grinder effect with the op is high I may say its cool I got ships coming in from frp/srp....but damn I just ate up 90 mil in clone costs in an hour and may at some point go its time for me to make up up some bs story and leave this here op. I make no claims to be an isk making master. RL long ago said I think you have too much time in game to make isk so I will change that jsut a bit lol.

Loss of troops to attrition...many battles won this way if more than me do this. With some of the larger crews with good frp/srp...this really the last holdout potentially for costs of war.
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#33 - 2014-09-15 00:54:46 UTC
There is a warning if you try to undock when in a war.
There is a warning when you try to jump into low sec(unless you turn it off).
This would have helped more than a few newer players I have worked with over the years.
The idea has no real affect on game play or any other player in the game.
So the only reason I see to give this one a thumbs down is the tired old "because it has always been this way" argument.

However instead of a warning screen that you have to deal with before you undock, simply add the warning as part of the normal undocking indicators we have now, Fast enough to read it and you will be able to cancel. To slow and you undock anyway.
Steppa Musana
Doomheim
#34 - 2014-09-15 01:17:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Steppa Musana
Iain Cariaba wrote:

I'm a troll because I disagree with you and can back it up? That article is an opinion piece, not a statement of fact. The only part I agree with is the fact that clone costs should not increase exponentially with age, but I think they should be proportional to the SP reserved.

At no point have you backed it up. Give me one good reason why having to click "update to X clone" is a better mechanic than having the option to have it done automatically, provided the ISK is available in one's wallet.

Arguing for extra clicks for the sake of extra clicks holds no logic, hence his claim of you being a troll is in fact reasonable.

There was a thread about this a while back where someone mentioned automatic updates if the ISK is available. He received a couple dozen 'likes' for that suggestion, so it would seem most people here in fact disagree with you.

Hey guys.
Jur Tissant
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#35 - 2014-09-15 03:43:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Jur Tissant
Let's make a new feature where if you don't renew a "training contract" for 500,000 ISK every month, you lose 5% of your skill points per day. Let's add that to the game now - not to worry, though, because there will be ample warning and it will only begin to take effect once you've undocked without paying. Of course, this all sounds needless and cruel, but it's only a variant on the current clone update scenario.

I agree that it's rather hard (albeit not impossible) to undock without an updated clone. But the real question is, who benefits from this gameplay aspect? What value does it bring to the game? If you lose weeks' worth of ISK in a freighter gank, this is an acceptably cruel part of EVE's universe because the pirates who organized the gank get the profit and entertainment value. When you can lose 1 billion worth of implants to a fast lock, this drives the implant market and allows for player-driven content such as pod ransoms.

But when you die because you forgot to update your med clone or, perhaps more likely, woke up in a corp facility without a medbay, nobody is benefiting from this. The implant market will hardly be affected, the killer probably won't even know what he's done, and the player is screwed over with weeks of training. The cost of a new clone is negligible, and increasing it will only discourage PvP which we certainly don't want.

Just because a feature is currently part of the game doesn't mean we need some grand compelling reason to remove it. It's a pointless feature and the only time it makes a difference in the universe is when someone gets podded in an out of date clone. If that's not convincing enough, imagine that this mechanic didn't currently exist and CCP decided to implement it in the next patch. Would anyone honestly think that was a meaningful addition to the game?
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