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Pre-CSM Summit Nullsec and Sov Thread

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Author
Jezza McWaffle
Lazerhawks
L A Z E R H A W K S
#101 - 2014-09-12 08:47:07 UTC
Can't wait to see every bit of player feedback regarding null get ignored.

Wormholes worst badass | Checkout my Wormhole blog

Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#102 - 2014-09-12 08:58:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
Local chat tweaks

From my perspective as a wormholer, local chat is an overpowered intel tool as is instantly alerts people to a potential threat.

A quick fix: When you jump into a system you have a session change cloak. I propose that a player should not show up in local until their session change cloak has ended. This would give the hunter extra time to determine where his target is.

If people want the instant intel of someone jumping in, they will have to dedicate a character to watching a gate (work for it) but they wouldn't be able to tell if it was friend or foe jumping in until the session change cloak ends.
KatanTharkay
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#103 - 2014-09-12 09:02:51 UTC  |  Edited by: KatanTharkay
Faction / sovereignty owner dependent security status

I think it's better for the game to encourage more types of engaging policies and in current 0.0 NBSI is predominant. The hard part with maintaining a NRDS policy are the long lists of reds that has to be shared with all the friendlies living in your area of space. It would be easier for the sov. owner to just flag the the reds as criminals towards them.

Ex: if CVA flags my alliance as reds/criminals we will appear in overview as flashy reds for everybody as soon as we would enter CVA space. That should make things easier for all the other neutrals living in that area of space and it would eliminate all the hard work associated with the red / blue shared lists.

I hope it helps!

Edit: you could do this by adding another tag named "local criminal" / "undesirable" that should be shown when you are present in the relevant area of space.
Slevin-Kelevra
brotherhood of desman
#104 - 2014-09-12 09:10:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Slevin-Kelevra
I most say I am hesitant to even reply to this, plainly and simply because I don't feel like CCP have the guts to make the changes that on the scale that is currently needed. I completely disagree with peoples personal vendetta with Fozzie I do feel that he a long with the rest of CCP can be accused of not being brave enough to make large scale changes, no matter how much they are needed. So instead of going from point A to point B CCP ends up taking EvE from point A to Point A.1...A.2 ........ Until years latter there is some feeling of actual change. To fix the current problems with null we need large, sweeping changes to completely overhaul the mechanics, and I just don't think CCP has that in them.

While those are my feelings on whether or not this actually means anything I will provide my ideas on change none the less. The way I see it there are only two problems with null, but these problems are massive and completely mechanics based. Changing these two problems would change everything about null life, but I feel that is what needs to happen. I will list the two main problems and I my suggestion on changes below:

Problem
Firstly we have the big one, sovereignty mechanics. This is the number one biggest problem with null, and brings with it a plethora of other problems. The just of the problem is two fold, one the idea that a large alliance can hold space they live no where near to is absurd, the whole point of null security space is to be untamed and uncontrollable. The second part of of the problem is the need to grind structures for days on end only to take a single system, this makes wars long, boring and unsustainable, because as much as CCP likes to forget it even the most hardcore of EvE players have a real life to get back to.

Solution
The solution for the above problem in my mind is easy, occupancy sovereignty. Basically put this is the idea that you have to actually live in your space to own it, and to take a system from someone you only need to push them out. Thus you control what you can maintain, and if someone comes along wanting your space you have to fight for it or be forced out. This would remove in large part the need for large coalitions, as every alliance just has to hold their own space, while it would still be nice to have friends to come and help you fight for your space should you need it. I do how ever believe that stations should still have timers, as these take large isk investment and should therefor not be easy to remove.

Problem 2
This is the current isk making format, the current system benefits alliance leadership, while hardly benefits line members. The top down income system is in place because of three reasons, renter income, POS income, and Tax income, all of which go straight to the leadership, who then distribute how they feel fit, often not very fairly or evenly. This is incredibly unfair, as without the member base these large entities would be nothing, it should be the members who benefit from incomes not leadership. And yes it has to be accepted that this will effect SRP and other replacement funds, but if line members are making their own isk then this wont matter as they will be able to fund their own activity. A better system would urge members to be more active, as they have to make their own isk, not being able to relay on being dribble feed by leadership, and as we all know more activity is sorely needed.

Salution
Well I hinted at the solution within the problem, but to broaden this I have to admit that I don't have a fully formed solution as to how to completely remove top down income, because how do you change the likes of POS income to benefit line members? If a move to occupancy sovereignty had to happen that would solve the Renter income. My idea ties in with my previous solution, if an alliance has to be active in their own space to own it, you increase the rewards to members who are active, making space more valuable for the people who own it, thus increasing the desire to own space, while still being restricted in that you have to be active in your space to own it.

Anyway this is just my feeling on the matter, I hope we see change, and fairly soon. I urge CCP to please be brave enough to make the much needed radical changes, null sec needs it, and EvE needs it!
Schmata Bastanold
In Boobiez We Trust
#105 - 2014-09-12 09:16:45 UTC
Adrie Atticus wrote:
So we can plant N+1 players in a system for X amount of hours in cloaky ships to flip the system?


What part of "murdering everything" did you miss from my post?

It's not about just having numbers in system, it's about using them to keep others away. Right now system is yours even if you never visit it again after planting a flag. Only thing stopping others from building a station there is that flag not your men power. I'm not talking about some weird occupancy game mechanics, I'm talking about occupancy by being there and fighting other off "your" ground. System should be yours because you actively prevent others from being there and exploiting its resources not because your alliance ticker is in system info panel.

Don't think in terms of "I will drop 1000 ships for X hours and flip occupancy timer" think in terms "I log in and see strange people in local, they poach my belts and rats and maybe even will suck my moongoo, I need to murder them before more will come".

Again, occupancy by keeping land by force not by some new lines of code calculating "presence factors". Null should be no mans land, you deserve nothing unless you can fend off others from it.

Invalid signature format

Hermelien Griffel
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#106 - 2014-09-12 09:28:30 UTC
Sigras wrote:
I used to think that the way to get small entities involved in null sec was to make sov more defensible allowing a smaller group to really dig in their heels and stand up against a large group.

I know see that the exact opposite is true... the large HP numbers on sov structures actually provide a minimum barrier to entry while not effecting larger entities at all.

think about it, if you multiply the HP on all sov structures by 30x, the only people who could realistically do sov warfare would be N3, PL, and the CFC; nobody else could bring a relevant amount of damage.

TL;DR
instead of making sov harder to take, make it easier


It will be easier if you tie the structure HP to the activity level of the system.
From 1/30 HP with no to very low activity to 30x HP to very high nearly continuous activity

Worrff
Enterprise Holdings
#107 - 2014-09-12 09:47:29 UTC
Angry Mustache wrote:
Just saying seeing CCP on the focus group about sov null makes me nervous.



Fixed that for you.........

CCP Philosophy: If it works, break it. If it’s broken, leave it alone and break something else.

TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#108 - 2014-09-12 09:49:12 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
Local chat tweaks

From my perspective as a wormholer, local chat is an overpowered intel tool as is instantly alerts people to a potential threat.

A quick fix: When you jump into a system you have a session change cloak. I propose that a player should not show up in local until their session change cloak has ended. This would give the hunter extra time to determine where his target is.

If people want the instant intel of someone jumping in, they will have to dedicate a character to watching a gate (work for it) but they wouldn't be able to tell if it was friend or foe jumping in until the session change cloak ends.



nice, so punish people even harder for not having alts
Worrff
Enterprise Holdings
#109 - 2014-09-12 10:05:05 UTC
Jezza McWaffle wrote:
Can't wait to see every bit of player feedback regarding null get ignored.



CCP don't do that....they only ignore the aspects of player feedback that they do not agree with.

CCP Philosophy: If it works, break it. If it’s broken, leave it alone and break something else.

Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#110 - 2014-09-12 10:06:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Rek Seven wrote:
Local chat tweaks

From my perspective as a wormholer, local chat is an overpowered intel tool as is instantly alerts people to a potential threat.

A quick fix: When you jump into a system you have a session change cloak. I propose that a player should not show up in local until their session change cloak has ended. This would give the hunter extra time to determine where his target is.

If people want the instant intel of someone jumping in, they will have to dedicate a character to watching a gate (work for it) but they wouldn't be able to tell if it was friend or foe jumping in until the session change cloak ends.



nice, so punish people even harder for not having alts


How is anyone being punished? The system is currently unbalanced and you don't necessarily need a alt, this is a MMO and your corps mates should supports you.

This is a game about spaceship combat and this change only applies to the areas of space that are supposed to be dangerous. If you don't want to risk ships in null sec/low sec, you should move to high sec.

However, it this change goes ahead and more ratters and miners are being killed as a result, the isk earning potential would need to be increased to improve the risk vs. reward balance.

Everyone wins!
Slevin-Kelevra
brotherhood of desman
#111 - 2014-09-12 10:11:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Slevin-Kelevra
Rek Seven wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Rek Seven wrote:
Local chat tweaks

From my perspective as a wormholer, local chat is an overpowered intel tool as is instantly alerts people to a potential threat.

A quick fix: When you jump into a system you have a session change cloak. I propose that a player should not show up in local until their session change cloak has ended. This would give the hunter extra time to determine where his target is.

If people want the instant intel of someone jumping in, they will have to dedicate a character to watching a gate (work for it) but they wouldn't be able to tell if it was friend or foe jumping in until the session change cloak ends.



nice, so punish people even harder for not having alts


How is anyone being punished? The system is currently unbalanced and you don't necessarily need a alt, this is a MMO and your corps mates should supports you.

This is a game about spaceship combat and this change only applies to the areas of space that are supposed to be dangerous. If you don't want to risk ships in null sec/low sec, you should move to high sec.

However, it this change goes ahead and more ratters and miners are being killed as a result, the isk earning potential would need to be increased to improve the risk vs. reward balance.

Everyone wins!


So the way you see it, massive coalitions are not a problem, grinding structures is not a problem, top down isk distribution is not a problem, capital move meant si not a problem, No the biggest problem in your eyes is that its to hard to get kills in null sec?

Have you even contemplated how OP an interceptor would be without appearing in local? It would not be hard to make isk, it would be impossible.

And the fact that your brightest idea is to make it harder for people to make isk in null, means that you know absolutely nothing and would do well to stay in your wormhole

What TrouserDeagle is saying is that in your 'brilliant' system, it would be compulsory to have even more alts to sit on gates to see if anyone comes in. That is how it is punishing people for not having alts.

The short sightedness is mind boggling.
Speedkermit Damo
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#112 - 2014-09-12 10:15:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Speedkermit Damo
Align Planet1 wrote:
If you're going to reconsider the high level goals of the sov mechanics, it would be enormously helpful to have a discussion on what the justifications are for having de jure sovereignty in the first place.

If 0.0 is supposed to be "lawless" space, ownership by fiat (i.e. arbitrary game mechanics) seems to contradict that principle. All of the actual benefits of controlling a system -- and the mechanics that enable it -- could remain in place without the contrivance of a Territorial Claim Unit. In other words, perhaps player groups should be able to build infrastructure hubs, CSAA's, jump bridges, etc., or even plant a pretty flag, in any system at any time. The only requirement for keeping those structures and reaping the benefits would be the ability of owners to defend them. That would be the purest expression of occupancy-based sov.

Just to be clear, this isn't about "fixing" the current sov mechanics. I'm questioning whether they should exist at all.


I can't recommend this post enough. It'll be the end of renting.

What also needs to happen is a massive nerf to teleportation. The ability to move 1000s of Megathrons, or 100s of Archons from one side of the galaxy to the other in minutes is utterly ridiculous.

It ruins the immersion, the feeling of inhabiting a massive galaxy is just not there. It should be.
It encourages massive coalitions of everything being set blue for 20 jumps.
It encourages oversized blob fleets, which CCP technology just can't cope with.
It allows bored 3rd parties to effectively ruin localised conflicts and gatecrash fights/wars which are none of their business.

"Space is big. You just won't believe how vastly, hugely, mind- bogglingly big it is. I mean, you may think it's a long way down the road to the chemist's, but that's just peanuts to space." Douglas Adams

The above quote should apply to New Eden, instead New Eden seems about as large as the inside of a fridge.

Protect me from knowing what I don't need to know. Protect me from even knowing that there are things to know that I don't know. Protect me from knowing that I decided not to know about the things that I decided not to know about. Amen.

Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#113 - 2014-09-12 10:17:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
Slevin-Kelevra wrote:

So the way you see it, massive coalitions are not a problem... Some or irrelevant rubbish


I didn't mention anything to do with sov or the general state of null. I'm only concerned about local and CCP have already stated that they want to do away with this "instant intel, no effort" intel tool.

Like i said, increase the site values to compensate and it wouldn't make it harder to make isk it would just ensure the risk vs. reward is balanced. And while CCP are at it they should fix interceptors as they are already op.

Your sense of entitlement is one of the things that is ruining null sec, with your "but see see pee, i should be able to make my isk in complete safetyCry".
Galdur Trudaihnel
Litla Sundlaugin
#114 - 2014-09-12 10:19:29 UTC
LOL just LOL,

Before you all become disappointed and waste your time with well thought out and articulated feedback, please check the wormhole forums and make a decision on how ''valuable'' CCP thinks player and CSM feedback is. There is one threadnaught that may stand out......
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#115 - 2014-09-12 10:23:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
Limit the number of bubbles that can be placed around a gate in null and remode bubble immunity from interceptors but give them a small MJD instead.
Slevin-Kelevra
brotherhood of desman
#116 - 2014-09-12 10:29:46 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
Slevin-Kelevra wrote:

So the way you see it, massive coalitions are not a problem... Some or irrelevant rubbish


I didn't mention anything to do with sov or the general state of null. I'm only concerned about local and CCP have already stated that they want to do away with this "instant intel, no effort" intel tool.

Like i said, increase the site values to compensate and it wouldn't make it harder to make isk it would just ensure the risk vs. reward is balanced. And while CCP are at it they should fix interceptors as they are already op.

Your sense of entitlement is one of the things that is ruining null sec, this your "but see see pee, i should be able to make my isk in complete safetyCry".


Your point is completely mute, I don't make isk in Null, actually I have a wormhole alt corp. I don't believe isk making in null should be completely safe at all. I do how ever feel your idea of "I think null should be more like wormholes because that's where I live and its what I know, therefor making it right" is idiotic and massively short sighted.

The reason I brought up the rest of that stuff is not because you disagree with it, but because when asked to give feed back on null sec your brightest idea was to fix local, well done on your amazing problem solving abilities,.

Guys who knew!!! the solution to all the problems with null is to fix local chat!!!!
Adrie Atticus
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#117 - 2014-09-12 10:31:08 UTC
Schmata Bastanold wrote:
Adrie Atticus wrote:
So we can plant N+1 players in a system for X amount of hours in cloaky ships to flip the system?


What part of "murdering everything" did you miss from my post?

It's not about just having numbers in system, it's about using them to keep others away. Right now system is yours even if you never visit it again after planting a flag. Only thing stopping others from building a station there is that flag not your men power. I'm not talking about some weird occupancy game mechanics, I'm talking about occupancy by being there and fighting other off "your" ground. System should be yours because you actively prevent others from being there and exploiting its resources not because your alliance ticker is in system info panel.

Don't think in terms of "I will drop 1000 ships for X hours and flip occupancy timer" think in terms "I log in and see strange people in local, they poach my belts and rats and maybe even will suck my moongoo, I need to murder them before more will come".

Again, occupancy by keeping land by force not by some new lines of code calculating "presence factors". Null should be no mans land, you deserve nothing unless you can fend off others from it.


But what metric would you use to gauge the "ownership" of the system or are you thinking of NPC null style of "no one owns this space but group X dominates the system technically owning it"?
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#118 - 2014-09-12 10:39:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
Slevin-Kelevra wrote:


The reason I brought up the rest of that stuff is not because you disagree with it, but because when asked to give feed back on null sec your brightest idea was to fix local, well done on your amazing problem solving abilities,.

Guys who knew!!! the solution to all the problems with null is to fix local chat!!!!



So i guess local isn't a part of null sec?

Again, i don't care about the general problems with null. I live in wormholes and my focus is on PVP so i'll leave the general state of null to the experts.

My expertise lie in killing stuff and when you consider that an aligned miner/ratter will be alerted by local, and often be in warp before the hunters screen loads, something is broken.

If you can't see how this is unbalanced you have no clue about the concept risk vs. reward and should just stop talking to me because you clearly don't have the capacity to have a logical and rational debate with me.
Oxide Ammar
#119 - 2014-09-12 10:42:19 UTC
1- remove local channel : it provides so much intel for no effort.

2- destroy able outposts as they promised before.

Lady Areola Fappington:  Solo PVP isn't dead!  You just need to make sure you have your booster, remote rep, cyno, and emergency Falcon alts logged in and ready before you do any solo PVPing.

Slevin-Kelevra
brotherhood of desman
#120 - 2014-09-12 10:42:22 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
Again, i don't care about the general problems with null. I live in wormholes


And yet here you are providing suggestions on how Null should be changed.