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Pre-CSM Summit Nullsec and Sov Thread

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Author
Juliandelphki
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#281 - 2014-09-14 11:17:30 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:

Over the next few years we were able to make some great strides in improving resource collection, income sources and industrial activity in nullsec, through the changes made in Odyssey, Rubicon and Crius. Thanks to the agenda set in that Winter summit, nullsec mining and ratting are more popular than they have ever been, alliance income relies more heavily on players being in space, and local industry has begun its renaissance. Obviously there are still many improvements to nullsec economics to be made in the future, but we are standing on a stronger foundation than ever before and we have been turning our main focus to other aspects of gameplay in this space.



This I really have to beg to differ on. I first entered null Sec in 2010. Just like then, I see groups who own WHOLE regions of space. In that region the alliance/coalition will use say 3 to 6 of the systems the rest lie vacant/dormant. The majority of income for null sec groups is R64, R32 moon.


If you want to fix null sec then follow my earlier post. But it's very simple. These major blocs that own 50% of the null sec sov need to go. They squeeze out the little guys. To fix this set up a "Tiered" system of sov costs. Just like in stations where the more offices get rented the higher the rent goes. Apply this aspect to sov costs. the more systems an alliance/corp owns the higher the sov bill gets for the next subsequent system. You can give the group a flat fee free baseline IE: the first 6 systems are normal price, but after costs go up.

Additionally to stop these major blocs from retaining this sov and paying a higher bill but just owning more moons, CAP the amount of towers a corporation can have or institute the same pricing effect as sov. So that they can't just have 500 towers out to pay for everything.



These 2 simple changes will help ensure that more of eve gets to partake of 0.0 sov space.

It's better to explain yourself to 12 then to be carried by 6. It is better to ask forgiveness than permission.

Nerriana
Avanto
Hole Control
#282 - 2014-09-14 11:34:34 UTC
Adrie Atticus wrote:
Speedkermit Damo wrote:
Taconia wrote:
Be very careful CCP. If you break null, I will leave game. Burn Jita will be a tea party. Solve your problems. I remember how you fixed drone regions. You merely took things away. That was not a solution then, and will not be now.


The fact that renters like you exist. Is why nullsec is already broken. Imagine being able to control a system without having to bend the knee to PL.



And then you get dropped by a swarm of capitals, get camped until you lose the system.


The Idea would be that with properly designed sov that big cap fleet can take it, but it can't hold it.

Imagine this: Your Small Underdog Alliance(tm) has couple hundred pilots and a handful of systems. You use this space: Rat, run plexes, run PI, mine moongoo, mine asteroids, build stuff and so on. This activity (and it has to be activity instead of passive holding) builds influence that allows you to hold sov. More influence -> better sov. Better sov then allows stations, POSes and so on to have better timers (or even full invulnerability) and other defensive advantages (along better ratting, possibly PI bonuses and other sundry). Without activity the sov eventually, in few months, decays into nonexistence. Up to and including stations becoming NPC stations open to all.

Then your Nasty Big Alliance (tm) takes an exception to you and steamrolls the place with supercapfleet. With big influence and good sov this has to involve several days or even weeks of attacks on colonies, reinforcing and destroying POSes and stations and so on. Not simply ninja-plopping a SBU. After sufficient attacks the stations and structures the sov level decays enough so that you can plop down the SBU (or otherwise start directly contesting the sov).

However, your small alliance wants to stay nevertheless. There are couple nasty weeks or months of playing cat&mouse with BNA(tm) subcaps, possibly hit&run ninja ganks on careless caps and so on. However, unless BNA(tm) brings carebears in and starts to rebuild the system, it can only hold it temporarily. After losing interest and/or moving elsewhere, the BNA(tm) sov starts decaying. SUA(tm) attacks (quick ganks to reinforce/destroy structures etc.) speed up this decay process. Until one day the sov flips by eg. blowing up a non-reinforced structure and possibly arranging a DUST bunny assault on station. (Latter might include fun stuff like "docking" with large transport and suppression of station external defenses and so on).

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#283 - 2014-09-14 11:34:47 UTC
Juliandelphki wrote:
The majority of income for null sec groups is R64, R32 moon.




Actually it doesn't. Moons these days generate about as much income per month as an ice miner.
Adrie Atticus
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#284 - 2014-09-14 11:38:18 UTC
Azami Nevinyrall wrote:

I didn't even mention Concorde LP, or Goon LP™.
I said that limiting Agents to one group is wrong...and it is! Every agent is available to every player (Standings permitting!) This would prevent Players from accessing Agents in...yes...Goon space. And all SOV space too..........unless they were "Blue" or in said Alliance.
So, there most of the playerbase....excluded.
Then you'd have to even it out so no one Group gets more or better Agents then the rest. Which involves looking at the map and hand picking them and placing them. Oh, and borders change. Just like moon-goo! It'll be gamed too all ****!


So it's fully okay for FW people to get locked out of stations they previously had access to because they picked a side to fight for where as it's not okay for people to get locked out of null outposts because they picked a side to fight for?

Also remember that the outposts are player-built and upgraded, there should be some benefits on dumping money into the isk sinks.
Adrie Atticus
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#285 - 2014-09-14 11:40:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Adrie Atticus
Nerriana wrote:
Adrie Atticus wrote:
Speedkermit Damo wrote:
Taconia wrote:
Be very careful CCP. If you break null, I will leave game. Burn Jita will be a tea party. Solve your problems. I remember how you fixed drone regions. You merely took things away. That was not a solution then, and will not be now.


The fact that renters like you exist. Is why nullsec is already broken. Imagine being able to control a system without having to bend the knee to PL.



And then you get dropped by a swarm of capitals, get camped until you lose the system.


The Idea would be that with properly designed sov that big cap fleet can take it, but it can't hold it.

Imagine this: Your Small Underdog Alliance(tm) has couple hundred pilots and a handful of systems. You use this space: Rat, run plexes, run PI, mine moongoo, mine asteroids, build stuff and so on. This activity (and it has to be activity instead of passive holding) builds influence that allows you to hold sov. More influence -> better sov. Better sov then allows stations, POSes and so on to have better timers (or even full invulnerability) and other defensive advantages (along better ratting, possibly PI bonuses and other sundry). Without activity the sov eventually, in few months, decays into nonexistence. Up to and including stations becoming NPC stations open to all.

Then your Nasty Big Alliance (tm) takes an exception to you and steamrolls the place with supercapfleet. With big influence and good sov this has to involve several days or even weeks of attacks on colonies, reinforcing and destroying POSes and stations and so on. Not simply ninja-plopping a SBU. After sufficient attacks the stations and structures the sov level decays enough so that you can plop down the SBU (or otherwise start directly contesting the sov).

However, your small alliance wants to stay nevertheless. There are couple nasty weeks or months of playing cat&mouse with BNA(tm) subcaps, possibly hit&run ninja ganks on careless caps and so on. However, unless BNA(tm) brings carebears in and starts to rebuild the system, it can only hold it temporarily. After losing interest and/or moving elsewhere, the BNA(tm) sov starts decaying. SUA(tm) attacks (quick ganks to reinforce/destroy structures etc.) speed up this decay process. Until one day the sov flips by eg. blowing up a non-reinforced structure and possibly arranging a DUST bunny assault on station. (Latter might include fun stuff like "docking" with large transport and suppression of station external defenses and so on).



So having to grind 5 timers which can span up to 120 hours in total + fighting time is not long enough and should be made longer?

The scope of offensive warfare is something you have never clearly experienced, having to grind systems for months burns out so many players every single time that it's not feasible for any of the power blocs to do so.
Nerriana
Avanto
Hole Control
#286 - 2014-09-14 11:40:28 UTC
Juliandelphki wrote:

If you want to fix null sec then follow my earlier post. But it's very simple. These major blocs that own 50% of the null sec sov need to go. They squeeze out the little guys. To fix this set up a "Tiered" system of sov costs. Just like in stations where the more offices get rented the higher the rent goes. Apply this aspect to sov costs. the more systems an alliance/corp owns the higher the sov bill gets for the next subsequent system. You can give the group a flat fee free baseline IE: the first 6 systems are normal price, but after costs go up.

Additionally to stop these major blocs from retaining this sov and paying a higher bill but just owning more moons, CAP the amount of towers a corporation can have or institute the same pricing effect as sov. So that they can't just have 500 towers out to pay for everything.

These 2 simple changes will help ensure that more of eve gets to partake of 0.0 sov space.


This simply won't work. The Result would be a big coalition of alliances, coordinated out of the game if necessary, named "Goonswarm 1", "Goonswarm 2", "Goonswarm 3" and so on. All blue to each other (again, coordinated out of game if necessary) and working as one blob.

You're right that passive moon goo income has to go, though.
Adrie Atticus
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#287 - 2014-09-14 11:42:26 UTC
nvm.
Azami Nevinyrall
172.0.0.1
#288 - 2014-09-14 11:46:58 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Azami Nevinyrall wrote:
Bah, the quotes the quotes!

@baltec1

I didn't even mention Concorde LP, or Goon LP™.
I said that limiting Agents to one group is wrong...and it is! Every agent is available to every player (Standings permitting!) This would prevent Players from accessing Agents in...yes...Goon space. And all SOV space too..........unless they were "Blue" or in said Alliance.
So, there most of the playerbase....excluded.
Then you'd have to even it out so no one Group gets more or better Agents then the rest. Which involves looking at the map and hand picking them and placing them. Oh, and borders change. Just like moon-goo! It'll be gamed too all ****!


It would operate just like any other station upgrade and come in 4 levels. At level 1 it would provide a level 1 agent, at level 2 it would provide a level 1 and 2 agent and so on to level 4. LP would come in the form of Concord LP and could be used in any LP store aside from the pirate factions.

The reason why missions make the most sense for null is because they allow for an infinite number of people to live in a single system which is what is needed if you want to fix empire sprawl.


You completely missed my point, let me explain again...

If CCP puts Agents in Player Owned Stations, you are preventing most of the playerbase from accessing them!
If it's not balanced properly with the current map, people will ***** and complain. Followed up by accusations of favoritism. Then we all have to deal with people like Gevlon and his ass-backwards thought process.





baltec1 wrote:
Azami Nevinyrall wrote:

Actions have consequences buddy...
Super Capital and Titan pilots knew what they were getting themselves into before they bought the Skillbooks....deal with the consequences of your actions.


This is a poor argument for keeping a mechanic in place that causes more harm than good.


Not really, Players spend Billions of ISK, Months or even years of gametime to train into these ships. I get that, believe you me. But, during this time I strongly believe that said pilot(s) learned that they were basically coffins. They knew exactly what they were getting themselves into! There's no way around that!

...In the end, we both have different views on this particular subject. Neither one of us is going to persuade each other the other way.



...

Azami Nevinyrall
172.0.0.1
#289 - 2014-09-14 11:47:52 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Azami Nevinyrall wrote:

It is possible to stop power projection, make doing it risky to the Titan pilot. Alliances would have a choice to either risk loosing that Titan or move your fleet gate by gate.....there and back! If your space got invaded on 2 different fronts, are you going to expect all your pilots to be willing to burn 20 odd jumps in high TiDi only to fight one battle, then burn another 30 jumps to fight another? Or split your resources and fight on both sides at once and risk loosing a defeat on 2 sides?

You can attack us on five fronts and force use to only use gates to travel and force us to base out of YA0 and we would still be able to defend our assets. You cannot nerf power projection, what you nerf is the need to project power.


I highly doubt that, you can chest beat all day here. No one in this game is willing to sit through dozens upon dozens of jumps, fight after fight. Day after day in 10% TiDi!

And no, you cannot defend yourself in that situation on a 2 front war...let alone a 5.


baltec1 wrote:
Azami Nevinyrall wrote:

I'm not talking about Nerfing the Titan directly. My argument has always been the relative ease to hide behind a POS shield in complete safety. Stick your ass out the shield and let X amount to grunts press a button.

And lets be honest, the effort to use your Titan as a portable and completely safe stargate is a little OP. If you use something, it should be at risk!



They are. You may not be aware of this but it is ver possible to bump said titan out of a POS while it is bridging. Lets not also forget the ever present jump rather than bridge mistake.

In any event, there are ways to get around forcing a titan to jump with a fleet.

Isn't it an exploit to bump a Titan inside a POS?

.....well, unless you use another Titan. (Which is stupid as all **** if you ask me.)

...

Azami Nevinyrall
172.0.0.1
#290 - 2014-09-14 11:49:35 UTC
Adrie Atticus wrote:
So it's fully okay for FW people to get locked out of stations they previously had access to because they picked a side to fight for where as it's not okay for people to get locked out of null outposts because they picked a side to fight for?

You're not completely locked out of the station. I spent years in FW, so I know how to use ALTS to get around that little problem...

Nullsec will never have that option!

...

Nerriana
Avanto
Hole Control
#291 - 2014-09-14 11:50:46 UTC
Adrie Atticus wrote:


So having to grind 5 timers which can span up to 120 hours in total + fighting time is not long enough and should be made longer?

The scope of offensive warfare is something you have never clearly experienced, having to grind systems for months burns out so many players every single time that it's not feasible for any of the power blocs to do so.


Offensive warfare should be relatively difficult, long-term grinds with advantage to the defender. This would be balanced with inactivity-caused decay in sov. If you run only nominal industry/pve/PI/whatever in system, the best you can have is timerless nominal sov easy to flip. If you have no activity, even this decays into NPC wilderness.

The Fighting should be less-intensive, longer-term and not focused on singular big-fleet goals like popping timered sov structures.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#292 - 2014-09-14 11:54:20 UTC
Azami Nevinyrall wrote:


You completely missed my point, let me explain again...

If CCP puts Agents in Player Owned Stations, you are preventing most of the playerbase from accessing them!
If it's not balanced properly with the current map, people will ***** and complain. Followed up by accusations of favoritism. Then we all have to deal with people like Gevlon and his ass-backwards thought process.




Let them whine. Everyone would have the ability to take sov space for their own to get these things. Under our plan 80% of sov space will be freed up.


Azami Nevinyrall wrote:




...In the end, we both have different views on this particular subject. Neither one of us is going to persuade each other the other way.





Most likely not, this is one of the lesser issues with null sov.
Adrie Atticus
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#293 - 2014-09-14 12:20:10 UTC
Azami Nevinyrall wrote:


If CCP puts Agents in Player Owned Stations, you are preventing most of the playerbase from accessing them!
If it's not balanced properly with the current map, people will ***** and complain. Followed up by accusations of favoritism. Then we all have to deal with people like Gevlon and his ass-backwards thought process.




You do realize that all agents are of equal value only adjusted by the system security status?
Azami Nevinyrall
172.0.0.1
#294 - 2014-09-14 12:24:52 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Azami Nevinyrall wrote:


You completely missed my point, let me explain again...

If CCP puts Agents in Player Owned Stations, you are preventing most of the playerbase from accessing them!
If it's not balanced properly with the current map, people will ***** and complain. Followed up by accusations of favoritism. Then we all have to deal with people like Gevlon and his ass-backwards thought process.




Let them whine. Everyone would have the ability to take sov space for their own to get these things. Under our plan 80% of sov space will be free.


Free like it is now?

Technically, 80% of Nullsec is empty, used as buffer zones. It really wouldn't change, and most of your ratters will stay in the same system/general area and not spread out.

And keep in mind, that CCP needs to do this for the greater good of the Game as a whole. Not cater to one particular, small portion of the community.

...

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#295 - 2014-09-14 12:31:32 UTC
Azami Nevinyrall wrote:


Free like it is now?

Technically, 80% of Nullsec is empty, used as buffer zones. It really wouldn't change, and most of your ratters will stay in the same system/general area and not spread out.

And keep in mind, that CCP needs to do this for the greater good of the Game as a whole. Not cater to one particular, small portion of the community.


No not like now.

Under our plan it would be impossible to hold the massive territories we currently own. 80% of sov would drop, and yes, the entire goal of the change to null income is to get players to bunch up in just a few systems. CCP would also not be catering to a small portion of the population, literally everyone has access to missions in high sec anyway and with 80% of null sov up for grabs any corp/alliance can go out a take a system or three for their own.
letmepost Parmala
Doomheim
#296 - 2014-09-14 12:46:35 UTC
Simple & effective solutions:

Arrow Create mobiles that effectively perturb sov holding/ Moons/ ratting/ living (pple have to defend).
Arrow Delay apparition on local channel to X seconds, X depending on how well you "control" a system.
Arrow Belt/Gate ratting need to be a viable option (more targets on belts).
Arrow limit numbers of sov holding, make it "alliance leadership" skill related.
Arrow limit blue/red standings, make it skill related.


Small tweaks, massive 0.0 balance.


baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#297 - 2014-09-14 13:03:45 UTC
letmepost Parmala wrote:
Simple & effective solutions:

Arrow Create mobiles that effectively perturb sov holding/ Moons/ ratting/ living (pple have to defend).
Arrow Delay apparition on local channel to X seconds, X depending on how well you "control" a system.
Arrow Belt/Gate ratting need to be a viable option (more targets on belts).
Arrow limit numbers of sov holding, make it "alliance leadership" skill related.
Arrow limit blue/red standings, make it skill related.


Small tweaks, massive 0.0 balance.




Few of them would work as you intend.
Nerriana
Avanto
Hole Control
#298 - 2014-09-14 14:16:11 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Azami Nevinyrall wrote:


You completely missed my point, let me explain again...

If CCP puts Agents in Player Owned Stations, you are preventing most of the playerbase from accessing them!
If it's not balanced properly with the current map, people will ***** and complain. Followed up by accusations of favoritism. Then we all have to deal with people like Gevlon and his ass-backwards thought process.




Let them whine. Everyone would have the ability to take sov space for their own to get these things. Under our plan 80% of sov space will be freed up.



Here are couple ideas about Agents on Player Owned Stations:

ArrowAs CONCORD (and pirates) are neutral, so are the agents. Agent-bearing station must be open and accessible to everyone. As long as the agent is in residence (including a week-long "warning period" which sends notification to anyone with any items on station after owner cancels agents' contract), the station cannot be closed to anyone. This allows pirate population to control the carebear population and keeps carebears on their toes.

ArrowStation services are available to everyone at same price as long as agent is in residence. Profits from station services naturally go to the owning corp. Otherwise, if you want to get fancy, you could allow other corps to buy, install and maintain their own service modules and run a bit of competition...

ArrowStation owners naturally pay for the privilege of having agent(s) on station. This cost naturally escalates with mission levels available. This is, of course, in addition to normal station costs.
Triget
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#299 - 2014-09-14 14:39:58 UTC
We need a New World.

The ideas outlined in the many replies here, the hundreds of posts on TMC, EN24 et al, the rants in local, and the conversations had daily in TS, Mumble, Jabber and forums all try to describe the problem and offer mechanical solutions to the existing order. We all know what the problem is: nullsec, which I truly love, is not all that much fun. It has lost its fun because its has lost its promise. The promise of unlimited possibilities, the promise of new experiences, the promise of untold wealth and the promise of building an empire with friends; these are all lacking in the current situation in null.

The problem is two-fold. The mechanics have indeed lead to the requirements of massive fleets and super escalation to contest space, and they should be tweaked. The larger problem, however, lies with the political order. The leadership class of all the major powers have more in common with each other than they do with the people they lead. And, they do not lead, but rather, they rule. They have become stale because there is nothing new for them to do, no new heights for them to scale. They have reached the top, and had to stop, and that's what's bothering me. The people cry out for someone to lead them, but the barrier to entry is to high. The problem dear CCP, lies more with the players than with the mechanics. We look to you to deliver us from our folly and give us back the promise of nullsec that we have squandered.

To do what must be done in nullsec to return it to its promise would significantly disrupt the existing order, upset tens of thousands of subscribers and cause irreparable damage to EVE's player base. Doing half measures to temporarily satiate the desire for change would not resolve the fundamental problems, and compound the frustration of all. Instead of creating a mechanical revolution in our current nullsec, we need a New World.

A New World for people to explore, that fits into their current understanding of the game and is lucrative to settle would drive a subscription spike as people who have left our now stale game return because the promise the game once had has returned. This is the third way between what we have and the clamor for fixing lowsec that we all know would upset more people than it satisfies. I urge you, CCP, to consider this and see the game again as you once did, and once more can.



Let me outline features of the New World that would make it an attractive destination for all.

1. The New World would be one far from the reaches of the current order, somewhere accessible by gate, but not by jump drives. - This would negate the power projection from the existing order, but also break the area from reliance on Jita runs for supplies.
2. Sov warfare should be flimsier that the current mechanics. Perhaps simply lowering EHP on structures by 75% would be sufficient.
3. It would need to be very large. Perhaps 16 new regions in 4 groups, with only 2-3 gates connecting it to the existing galaxy. Imagine having another 12 HED-GP's in the game.
4. The space needs to be lucrative for the individual player. A player should be making 100-150 mil/hr. Perhaps have moon goo in asteroids, anoms with no rat bounties, but ore drops instead after killing the rats. Every system should be able to support 10 active players, but in different ways.
5. There should be a NPC nullsec pocket or two in each of the groups. First for basing from, and second for pvp locations in the manner of NPC Delve.

The features could be tweaked in any number of ways, but the core feature, rich new space far from the reaches of the current empires, would prove a massive improvement to the game. New sov mechanics, new nullsec features, radical departures, these can all be experimented with in the New World without upsetting the existing order. If these changes work, apply them to existing
kashkaisha
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#300 - 2014-09-14 14:50:28 UTC
1- Un-nerf nano
2- Get rid of the forever bubble everywhere
3- Give us a alternative to the ishtar in term of mobility and dps
4- Make weapon dist to work on missile boat
5- Stop putting all your effort on industrie and how the game look...
6- Make jump clone in wh to work
7- Go back to 1.