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Dev blog: Lighting the invention bulb

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Momiji Sakora
Omni Galactic
Central Omni Galactic Group
#261 - 2014-10-10 16:56:57 UTC
Has there been any updates regarding the suggestions?

I'd really like to see the ME/TE research levels of the BPC being used in invention having an affect on the product. Surely if you understand the base object more you're likely to have better results?

Has this already been discussed? Any roundups on what's been said so far?
Calzan
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#262 - 2014-10-10 18:50:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Calzan
Why is the formula based on Mod Meta levels that are about to go away? I either get 1+.5/5 or 1+.5/4 and likely there's going to be lots of Meta1 modules that are cheap and highly available as they're not FOTM. I agree it's cool pre-Module Tiericide but kind of limp after.


Edit: disregard I should read the whole thing before posting.
Lil' Brudder Too
Pistols for Pandas
#263 - 2014-10-10 20:36:23 UTC
Calzan wrote:
Why is the formula based on Mod Meta levels that are about to go away? I either get 1+.5/5 or 1+.5/4 and likely there's going to be lots of Meta1 modules that are cheap and highly available as they're not FOTM. I agree it's cool pre-Module Tiericide but kind of limp after.


Edit: disregard I should read the whole thing before posting.

I lost the ability to use meta items in invention in Crius...there was no option for them anymore (atleast for the few items i was/am building)

Also, CCP, are you still plowing ahead with this whole variable outcome thing? If so, please re-read most of the comments in this thread that relate to said idea...

New Icon SiSi feedback thread that got wholly ignored!

An example of that a good ship icon set looks like.
Zifrian
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#264 - 2014-10-10 22:42:16 UTC
Apparently this so going live. Any info on suggested changes in this thread?

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Steppa Musana
Doomheim
#265 - 2014-10-11 00:25:00 UTC
We can collapse the top! I love you guys. Actually listening to us about the UI now. Such heroes.

Hey guys.
Calzan
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#266 - 2014-10-11 02:19:00 UTC
Will CCP be buying the metric ton of Data Interface BPCs that have been clogging my 'storage ships' in jita for months?

Or should I build them all to get payment?
Kaydar ArX
Sisters of EVE - Origins
The Initiative.
#267 - 2014-10-11 12:05:44 UTC
So this is going live in spite of all the negative feedbacks this thread gave? Straight
Lil' Brudder Too
Pistols for Pandas
#268 - 2014-10-11 23:27:13 UTC
Kaydar ArX wrote:
So this is going live in spite of all the negative feedbacks this thread gave? Straight

And some wonder why we even bother to give feedback anymore...i know i am...since i am paying them so that i can be an ignored beta tester...not as glamorous as it seemed at first.

New Icon SiSi feedback thread that got wholly ignored!

An example of that a good ship icon set looks like.
TheSmokingHertog
Julia's Interstellar Trade Emperium
#269 - 2014-10-12 04:25:10 UTC  |  Edited by: TheSmokingHertog
Steve Ronuken wrote:
TheSmokingHertog wrote:
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Princess Mary-I wrote:
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Skills will not affect ME. Because the moment you have ME being affected, the skill becomes one required at 5. Like Production Efficiency was. CCP have stated in another thread that they do not want skills to be like that.


If I get u right, then CCP don't think there should be a skill required to lvl 5 to reap the "benefits" and to be mandatory to get to lvl 5, and they have stated so in a thread.

That makes no sense to me, reading that, cause was that not the reason behind the refining change? U would need all reprocessing skills to lvl 5 to reap the "benefits", and therefor becomming a mandatory skill, and if I remember right, that was in a dev blog too. Yes yes I know no none refine anymore :D but that is not the point.

So maybe you can help me out here - do they want skills to be mandatory to get to lvl 5 or do they not want skills to mandatory to get to lvl 5?


There's a huge difference.

With refining skills, you make /less/ isk. You can still sell for profit.

With a skill that reduces manufacturing costs, you can easily reach the point where, without it, you cannot make /any/ profit without it at 5.


Can you both elaborate? I can not follow the refining / producing connection to skill lvl, are there not many more factors at work to talk those things?


I have less than Max refining skills: I refine something, and sell it on the market. I make isk.

I have less than max skills in something that reduces manufacturing material costs: I make something. I cannot sell it for profit, because someone who has been around longer, and has it maxed out, has set the market value at just enough for them to make a profit, but where it's below the level I can make it at.

That's what happened with the old Production Efficiency skill. you pretty much had to have it at 5, or you couldn't compete.


Thats bad for business, but makes sense...

"Dogma is kind of like quantum physics, observing the dogma state will change it." ~ CCP Prism X

"Schrödinger's Missile. I dig it." ~ Makari Aeron

-= "Brain in a Box on Singularity" - April 2015 =-
Backfyre
Hohmann Transfer
#270 - 2014-10-12 12:21:24 UTC
Have not followed the whole thread but had a thought on Data Interfaces. Saw one person mentioned using them to tweak some other job aspect. Another thing would be to make them wear out like R.A.M. The harder the job, the more wear. Then, use uncommon drops from exploration or other sites to build/repair. That would give them useful functionality, motivate people to run exploration sites, and remove ISK from the economy. Perhaps even use interfaces to guide T3 results.
Agnahr
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#271 - 2014-10-12 13:41:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Agnahr
I haven't read the whole 14 pages posted here so apologies if this was raised before. But I agree with some comments that giving an improved TE for invention won't make a great deal of difference. However having different ME is going to be a pain in the back side rather than a bonus unless the changes comes with an easy way to calculate total bill of materials.

At the moment it's easy. To invent tech II mods, I use no descriptor leading to blueprints with a ME of -2 and TE of -4. So I look at one blueprint, multiply the required input of materials by 10 runs and then by the number of blueprints I have to know how much raw material to buy. I can then go to a trade hub and buy everything I need.

Wit the proposed change, I'll have some blueprints with 3 different ME. Because I build mods by big batches, this will lead to tedious sums with possibility of errors, leading to time wasted going back to the trade hubs to buy the stuff I got wrong. I don't see that as an enjoyable game play.

Of course I can invest some time to make a fancy spreadsheet or hope that someone makes a nice third party tool for me. But in my view it would be much better if the Industry window can tell me what I need directly. At the moment I can select one blueprint and the top half of the Industry window shows what the materials I must have and in what quantity. A simple solution would be the ability to select multiple blueprints of the same type and the top half of the window shows me the total requirement for each type of material. And it'd be even better if I can install all those jobs in one go too.
Hulk Miner
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#272 - 2014-10-13 18:14:09 UTC
CCP Phantom wrote:


Here a brief overview of the proposed changes (which are not coming with Oceanus):

  • To invent Tech-2 items you require for each invented item a set of two specific science skills. Which skills you exactly need will be changed. For ships you always needed the Mechanical Engineering skill, that is going to change depending on the role of the invented ship.


    • I have specialized characters in invention skilled in a certain way and these may now become defunct until I skill up another random skill?

    So will the same apply to invention as it did battle cruisers and destroyers, if you can do it now you will be able to do it after the changes and give me the other skill needed to the level I have it now?
    Milla Goodpussy
    Garoun Investment Bank
    #273 - 2014-10-13 18:23:11 UTC
    Hulk Miner wrote:
    CCP Phantom wrote:


    Here a brief overview of the proposed changes (which are not coming with Oceanus):

  • To invent Tech-2 items you require for each invented item a set of two specific science skills. Which skills you exactly need will be changed. For ships you always needed the Mechanical Engineering skill, that is going to change depending on the role of the invented ship.


    • I have specialized characters in invention skilled in a certain way and these may now become defunct until I skill up another random skill?

    So will the same apply to invention as it did battle cruisers and destroyers, if you can do it now you will be able to do it after the changes and give me the other skill needed to the level I have it now?





    pretty much it means that you can build it right now, but its changing and you will need to skill up additional skills to get back what you can build right now.

    he's just created a huge skill up grind for everyone across the board when it comes to invention and whats even worse hasn't kept the thread updated nor even discussed what the official changes are!. this is terrible customer service no wonder folks continue to get fed up and leave the game.
    Agnahr
    Hedion University
    Amarr Empire
    #274 - 2014-10-13 20:21:11 UTC
    Momiji Sakora wrote:
    Has there been any updates regarding the suggestions?

    Has this already been discussed? Any roundups on what's been said so far?


    The last DEV post was on page 9, so it looks like CCP is no longer interested in this thread...

    I'll share some further thoughts on this anyway. With the last research and industrial changes, what I observed is that

    • the production cost have increased by as much as 30% in some cases because of the re-balancing of the bill of materials. This led to smaller margin.
    • the production time was reduced, and the concept of slot was removed. This led to quicker turn around, hence more items on the market. More items means more competition, which leads to even smaller margin.


    CCP is now proposing to hit invention a second time. Wtih the decrease in the success rate, more datacores and decrytors will be needed to achieve the same number of tech II blueprints. Also we'll be able to set 10 inventions run in one go as opposed to just one. So if your inventions take 3 hours, after 30 hours, you should have 5 blueprints (taking a 50% chance of success to keep simple). Sounds great, no? But again reduce success rate AND a bigger turn around, will put an even greater pressure on the datacores. More demands for those items means higher prices and quicker turn around will cause yet more competitions and margins squished even further.

    In short, inventions may become just a hobby or for the well organised corps with poses and teams at their services. Maybe I should run data sites, at least I might make some good money out of datacores.

    But who cares, CCP don't read responses to their posts...
    Suzuka A1
    Caldari Provisions
    Caldari State
    #275 - 2014-10-15 15:52:17 UTC
    Quote:
    Dev Blog: "Stay tuned for more and expect threads to appear on the “Features & Ideas Discussion” to discuss specific points mentioned in this blog with time."


    ...still waiting.

    Also, still waiting for confirmation that CCP has some strategy to reimburse Data Interface BPCs for those of us who bought large amounts of them off the market...and can't possibly build all of them by Nov 4th due to the 20 hour build times/run.

    Never forget the battle of Z9PP-H  What actually happened: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UgcUwTmHY74 Battle Report: http://www.kugutsumen.com/showthread.php?42836-They-Might-Be-Giants-The-Southwest&p=497626&viewfull=1#post497626
    Milla Goodpussy
    Garoun Investment Bank
    #276 - 2014-10-15 22:01:33 UTC
    Suzuka A1 wrote:
    Quote:
    Dev Blog: "Stay tuned for more and expect threads to appear on the “Features & Ideas Discussion” to discuss specific points mentioned in this blog with time."


    ...still waiting.

    Also, still waiting for confirmation that CCP has some strategy to reimburse Data Interface BPCs for those of us who bought large amounts of them off the market...and can't possibly build all of them by Nov 4th due to the 20 hour build times/run.



    he's not saying jack cause he's allowing time to click on down to the very last minute in order to avoid a invention level debate or thread of rage about the changes.

    so countdown begins!.. this mess is about to go live without feedback from its fanbase.. no further mention of the changes being made.. just some 3rd party app crap..
    Je'ron
    The Happy Shooters
    #277 - 2014-10-18 19:26:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Je'ron
    CCP Ytterbium wrote:
    Lucy Sue wrote:
    Regarding the skills in the past when skill requirements have been changed it had been done in a way so that people who could do it before at a certain level could do it after at the same level. For example ships and drones. With the changes outlined in this blog it would force us to train skills to reach that same level as before, are any skills going to be raised to compensate?


    The ship tiericide caused us to delete old generic Destroyer and Battlecruiser skills and replace them with new ones, which is why we had to add and refund those skills to the players.

    This change is just shuffling tech II skill requirements for science skills around - your existing skills won't lose value, they'll just allow you to invent / manufacture other types of items you originally aimed for. As such there is no plan for skills to be manually raised or reimbursed. That is why we wanted to bring this blog early on to give you time to adapt and train skills needed back up.


    How much lead time are you going to give us? I need > 120 days of training to be able to invent and produce the same items at the succes rate as I'm currently making. That is on a char mapped for science Ugh
    And how commitment are you going to us? Because if you change while I'm training you **** me again.
    Milla Goodpussy
    Garoun Investment Bank
    #278 - 2014-10-20 00:11:48 UTC
    Je'ron wrote:
    CCP Ytterbium wrote:
    Lucy Sue wrote:
    Regarding the skills in the past when skill requirements have been changed it had been done in a way so that people who could do it before at a certain level could do it after at the same level. For example ships and drones. With the changes outlined in this blog it would force us to train skills to reach that same level as before, are any skills going to be raised to compensate?


    The ship tiericide caused us to delete old generic Destroyer and Battlecruiser skills and replace them with new ones, which is why we had to add and refund those skills to the players.

    This change is just shuffling tech II skill requirements for science skills around - your existing skills won't lose value, they'll just allow you to invent / manufacture other types of items you originally aimed for. As such there is no plan for skills to be manually raised or reimbursed. That is why we wanted to bring this blog early on to give you time to adapt and train skills needed back up.


    How much lead time are you going to give us? I need > 120 days of training to be able to invent and produce the same items at the succes rate as I'm currently making. That is on a char mapped for science Ugh
    And how commitment are you going to us? Because if you change while I'm training you **** me again.


    we still get no response from him after us asking for more info over and over again. invention what you can make now .. better be your top priority and stock up before his change goes live cause its a mess.
    Steve Ronuken
    Fuzzwork Enterprises
    Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
    #279 - 2014-10-20 05:29:27 UTC
    Milla Goodpussy wrote:
    Je'ron wrote:
    CCP Ytterbium wrote:
    Lucy Sue wrote:
    Regarding the skills in the past when skill requirements have been changed it had been done in a way so that people who could do it before at a certain level could do it after at the same level. For example ships and drones. With the changes outlined in this blog it would force us to train skills to reach that same level as before, are any skills going to be raised to compensate?


    The ship tiericide caused us to delete old generic Destroyer and Battlecruiser skills and replace them with new ones, which is why we had to add and refund those skills to the players.

    This change is just shuffling tech II skill requirements for science skills around - your existing skills won't lose value, they'll just allow you to invent / manufacture other types of items you originally aimed for. As such there is no plan for skills to be manually raised or reimbursed. That is why we wanted to bring this blog early on to give you time to adapt and train skills needed back up.


    How much lead time are you going to give us? I need > 120 days of training to be able to invent and produce the same items at the succes rate as I'm currently making. That is on a char mapped for science Ugh
    And how commitment are you going to us? Because if you change while I'm training you **** me again.


    we still get no response from him after us asking for more info over and over again. invention what you can make now .. better be your top priority and stock up before his change goes live cause its a mess.



    As for the 'how much time' http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/coming-to-eve-online-in-the-phoebe-release-on-november-4th/

    Woo! CSM XI!

    Fuzzwork Enterprises

    Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
    ORLICZ
    Viziam
    Amarr Empire
    #280 - 2014-10-20 10:32:20 UTC
    wtf ???


    so now i ll have 100 different t2 bpc my damage control II ?? me 2% te 3% or me 3% te 2% ... etc ? click click wtf??? where is mine ME 10% BPC :P


    solution: show ME and TE on bpc icon and ad stacking bpc


    and stuff from exploration should be valuable - solution: less sites with exploration