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A Reminder Regarding Real Life Harassment

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Author
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#81 - 2014-09-11 04:45:19 UTC
CCP Falcon wrote:
Titus Tallang wrote:
can we expect some clear-cut rules on what you would classify as 'real life harassment'?


It isn't our job to dictate to people how to maintain a base standard of human decency toward one another, and we're not going to do so.


But it feels like CCP is doing just that by basically saying Oh we're going to ban you because you did ____ but we're not going to say what will get you banned... Just go do it and find out



I think everyone knows the clear cut cases of RL harassment but some people are trying to make in game actions into RL harassment... You blew up my freighter and made fun of me in local... Guess what I'm putting in a complaint so CCP can ban you!



Please please step up and clarify what is allowed and what is not... It is unfair to take action against players when there is no clear guidelines as to what is allowed.

My apologizes in advance if this offends a CCP dev but I feel I have to say this...
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#82 - 2014-09-11 05:01:33 UTC
The really funny part is that, a while back, I was doxxed, stalked, and my life threatened by a butthurt carebear whose corp I had awoxed, back when neutral logi didn't get suspect flags. Hence why I post on an alt, and have since largely abandoned my old main account.

CCP did nothing. Told me to contact my local law enforcement, who just laughed.

That's what really pisses me off about all of this. Tears over video game money necessitate bans, sending me a picture of my own house through the in game email client does not.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Rhiannon Marius
Marius Family Enterprises Unlimited
#83 - 2014-09-11 05:04:07 UTC
I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced within that shorthand description ["hard-core pornography"]; and perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so. But I know it when I see it, and the motion picture involved in this case is not that. [Emphasis added.]

—Justice Potter Stewart, concurring opinion in Jacobellis v. Ohio 378 U.S. 184 (1964), regarding possible obscenity in The Lovers.

The above is posted for those arguing edge cases and saying yea but. Please read bold. I really cannot understand the people arguing for a bright line. Unless of course they are trying to flirt with it.
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#84 - 2014-09-11 05:17:33 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
The really funny part is that, a while back, I was doxxed, stalked, and my life threatened by a butthurt carebear whose corp I had awoxed, back when neutral logi didn't get suspect flags. Hence why I post on an alt, and have since largely abandoned my old main account.

CCP did nothing. Told me to contact my local law enforcement, who just laughed.

That's what really pisses me off about all of this. Tears over video game money necessitate bans, sending me a picture of my own house through the in game email client does not.


Same. The inconsistency of policy enforcement annoys me the most, but, people will take notice, or they won't. No use raging about it, I'm just going to shoot as many carebears and newbies as possible, DWA style, entirely within the rules of the game.

You know, back when I was a newbro, I fell for the Goonswarm recruitment scam. At first, I wasn't interested. I told him, "you know I've heard of you guys and I actually like the sound of it but, I'm still pretty new and don't wanna rush into stuff." He enticed me with a lot of really cool stuff that sounded very appealing, and the fact that I already liked Goonswarm was eventually what swung me. You can't deny that joining an incredibly powerful and well-to-do alliance in the game, especially for a new guy, is an attractive proposition.

So I handed over my 'security deposit' along with ~1bil in BPOs (cuz I was giving indi a try at the time) for safe passage to lowsec. Hell, I even skilled into jump clones and started stashing a few around prime points in highsec.

Eventually, the month that he told me it could take to get in passed. I sent him a mail, no response. I sent him another mail, still no response. Eventually, I looked up the GS diplos and asked, hey guys, what's going on? I had my suspicions so I said straight, all I want to know is, am I waiting for something I'm not gonna get? If I've been scammed, then gf, congrats, but I need to know so I can move on with my EVE career somewhere else instead of waiting for nothing.

They were straight with me, and I moved on.

Having been through that, I have to say that I just don't get what compels people to push themselves into situations that only upset them more just for the sake of some pixels. How hard is it to just walk away? I won't take a position on the bans here today, not like last time, no sir. Not interested and frankly, I don't even care anymore, CCP will do what they do and they alone will face the consequences of their policy decisions, should there be any. We, as gamers, have a thousand million other games we could be playing if they screw up and I, for one, won't cry for EVE Online if it becomes something other than EVE Online.

I will miss it, but I'll also be busy playing something else.

For now, this is very unlikely to harm the game in any telling way. Though I doubt it can help it much, either.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104

Sibyyl
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#85 - 2014-09-11 05:22:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Sibyyl
Interesting.

http://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/2g24cl/massive_banwave_hits_the_dark_side_of_eve/



*edited.

Joffy Aulx-Gao for CSM. Fix links and OGB. Ban stabs from plexes. Fulfill karmic justice.

Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#86 - 2014-09-11 05:26:32 UTC
Sibyyl wrote:


I wouldn't be too hasty to draw a parallel here. Could just be a bunch of unrelated bans went out at the same time. For all we know, they were botters/rmt'ers/etc.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104

Dave Stark
#87 - 2014-09-11 05:37:05 UTC
CCP Falcon wrote:
Titus Tallang wrote:
can we expect some clear-cut rules on what you would classify as 'real life harassment'?


It isn't our job to dictate to people how to maintain a base standard of human decency toward one another, and we're not going to do so.

The bottom line is that it's down to members of the community to know where the line crosses from common decency to harassment. We will not draw a line in the sand so that people can skirt on the edge of it and bend the rules as much as possible.

This isn't a debate about what constitutes "harassment". If you're not familiar with the word, find the definition in a dictionary and that will satisfy your question.

What we will do, is continue to use best judgement on a case by case basis to ensure that real life harassment is kept out of the game, and ensure that those who choose to involve themselves in such activities are no longer permitted to be part of our community.

Cut and dried, that's all we have to say on the matter.


yes, that is your job.

to play eve we have to agree to terms/conditons of use blah blah.

if you're not going to tell us what the T&Cs are, how are we meant to follow them?
Kristalll
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#88 - 2014-09-11 05:39:46 UTC
Rhiannon Marius wrote:
This is CCP's game.
They make the rules and guidelines and they are entitled to have grey areas and make judgement upon them.
Having said that; this is a character based game. You are not literally you in this game.
You're character is an avatar. This avatar can communicate in game. Meaning you can speak to others and sing to others.

There are things your in game avatar cannot do however.
They cannot send you a picture of themselves where they are smeared in mayo for instance. Think about what the other persons avatar is legally and physically capable of doing in game and you will be less likely to be concerned about what you are doing is right or wrong. If you are trying to push an edge case or are saying yea but; please refer to sentence one and two.


Okay, so then you support the bonus room.

“Die trying” is the proudest human thing.

Sibyyl
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#89 - 2014-09-11 05:41:14 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:


yes, that is your job.

to play eve we have to agree to terms/conditons of use blah blah.

if you're not going to tell us what the T&Cs are, how are we meant to follow them?



Since you missed it:

CCP Falcon wrote:


You guys are far too creative and way too clever for us to have a black and white, do or die policy. There needs to be some flexibility when dealing with edge cases and oddball situations that come up.



But maybe your point is that in this particular case it is too ambiguous?

Joffy Aulx-Gao for CSM. Fix links and OGB. Ban stabs from plexes. Fulfill karmic justice.

Dave Stark
#90 - 2014-09-11 05:44:41 UTC
Sibyyl wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:


yes, that is your job.

to play eve we have to agree to terms/conditons of use blah blah.

if you're not going to tell us what the T&Cs are, how are we meant to follow them?



Since you missed it:

CCP Falcon wrote:


You guys are far too creative and way too clever for us to have a black and white, do or die policy. There needs to be some flexibility when dealing with edge cases and oddball situations that come up.



But maybe your point is that in this particular case it is too ambiguous?


that's not ambiguous in the slightest. it simply says nothing. CCP want their cake and eat it.

I'll elaborate later, i have to get ready for work.
Kristalll
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#91 - 2014-09-11 05:44:44 UTC
Yes, it isn't really an issue to have a little bit of grey area, but this seems like a HUGE area is being coated grey.

“Die trying” is the proudest human thing.

Sibyyl
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#92 - 2014-09-11 05:46:07 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:


that's not ambiguous in the slightest. it simply says nothing. CCP want their cake and eat it.

I'll elaborate later, i have to get ready for work.



I'm sorry, Dave. There is no work. EVE is real.

Joffy Aulx-Gao for CSM. Fix links and OGB. Ban stabs from plexes. Fulfill karmic justice.

Rhiannon Marius
Marius Family Enterprises Unlimited
#93 - 2014-09-11 05:46:08 UTC
Kristalll wrote:
Rhiannon Marius wrote:
This is CCP's game.
They make the rules and guidelines and they are entitled to have grey areas and make judgement upon them.
Having said that; this is a character based game. You are not literally you in this game.
You're character is an avatar. This avatar can communicate in game. Meaning you can speak to others and sing to others.

There are things your in game avatar cannot do however.
They cannot send you a picture of themselves where they are smeared in mayo for instance. Think about what the other persons avatar is legally and physically capable of doing in game and you will be less likely to be concerned about what you are doing is right or wrong. If you are trying to push an edge case or are saying yea but; please refer to sentence one and two.


Okay, so then you support the bonus room.


As long as it touches nothing outside the game and is not continuous. I'm fine. There is that pesky continuous harassment thing that a bonus room may touch on. Thus the grey area.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#94 - 2014-09-11 05:48:06 UTC
Sibyyl wrote:

But maybe your point is that in this particular case it is too ambiguous?


My point is that subjectivity allows for, and encourages personal bias.

And the GM staff are carebear friendly, and it shows.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#95 - 2014-09-11 05:49:00 UTC
Sibyyl wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:


yes, that is your job.

to play eve we have to agree to terms/conditons of use blah blah.

if you're not going to tell us what the T&Cs are, how are we meant to follow them?



Since you missed it:

CCP Falcon wrote:


You guys are far too creative and way too clever for us to have a black and white, do or die policy. There needs to be some flexibility when dealing with edge cases and oddball situations that come up.



But maybe your point is that in this particular case it is too ambiguous?


I'm not saying take CCP's power to ban on a whim away. It's their game so that can't be taken away.

I'm just saying list some common things that are allowed and some that aren't. For example can I smack talk in local if I don't use bad words?...

My problem is I'm aware of players that have been banned and had nothing to do with the bonus room...

I don't want to get banned for hurting someone's feelings when I blow up their ship...
Sibyyl
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#96 - 2014-09-11 05:51:27 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Sibyyl wrote:

But maybe your point is that in this particular case it is too ambiguous?


My point is that subjectivity allows for, and encourages personal bias.

And the GM staff are carebear friendly, and it shows.


I think that at the very least, it would be helpful to know what kinds of things to personally avoid..


If this information sparks a debate, then that's another thing.. but at the moment, we don't even have a yardstick to say "well I shouldn't do this if I want to keep playing EVE".

One may argue that this is "obvious".. but is it?

Joffy Aulx-Gao for CSM. Fix links and OGB. Ban stabs from plexes. Fulfill karmic justice.

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#97 - 2014-09-11 05:51:44 UTC
IIshira wrote:

I don't want to get banned for hurting someone's feelings when I blow up their ship...


Yay, someone gets the genesis of the concern here!

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

CALDARI CITIZEN 14330909
The Conference Elite
Safety.
#98 - 2014-09-11 05:58:34 UTC
My name.... this is also a matter.

The Artist Formerly Known As AC. 

The terminal end of the digestive system. 

The Best CSM Candidate

Mattalious
Doomheim
#99 - 2014-09-11 05:58:48 UTC
One of the characters that was permabanned was a logistics pilot hauling tens of billions of isk of crap for my corp in a corp jump freighter. Petitioned.
Sibyyl
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#100 - 2014-09-11 06:04:37 UTC
CALDARI CITIZEN 14330909 wrote:
My name.... this is also a matter.


"Uranus Shrugged"

Joffy Aulx-Gao for CSM. Fix links and OGB. Ban stabs from plexes. Fulfill karmic justice.