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A Reminder Regarding Real Life Harassment

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Kristalll
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#61 - 2014-09-11 02:41:44 UTC
Gregor Parud wrote:
Anyone out of game interaction with the person rather than the character, so recordings would probably be a good guess :P


So when those wormholers made CCP Gargant sing on comms, they were harassing him?

“Die trying” is the proudest human thing.
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#62 - 2014-09-11 02:43:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Destiny Corrupted
Ilaister wrote:
I'd say you missed it entirely.

Maybe. Which is why I'm asking a CCP employee for clarification on the matter.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
S'No Flake
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#63 - 2014-09-11 02:43:39 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Handsome Feller wrote:
Jin Kugu wrote:
Can you harass someone in real life if you don't know who that person is in real life?


If you've ever been on the receiving end of some persistent & aggressive telephone marketing, you'd know the (obvious) answer to this.


the easy way to deal with those is to simply not answer the phone to numbers you don't recognise, and if you do answer one then you can always hang up with one button press.


This is not going to work.
The phone still rings and, because you live on the other coast, it rings at f*** up hours.
It makes you want to rip off their spinal cord after they call you for a week at 4am.
You can't even turn off the phone because murphy's laws state that you are on call for the next two weeks when this sh** happens.
Kristalll
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#64 - 2014-09-11 02:44:49 UTC
Amyclas Amatin wrote:
So is the line for real-life harassment going to remain vague?

Some of us enjoy harming other players with a passion, and the boundaries between character and person are bound to be crossed without clear guidelines on what isn't allowed.


Roleplay less I guess.

Of course, carebears that wish that the PLAYERS daughters be raped can keep to that.

But if you politely ask someone to sing a song, you're hitler.

“Die trying” is the proudest human thing.
Kristalll
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#65 - 2014-09-11 02:46:37 UTC
Abrazzar wrote:
Amyclas Amatin wrote:
So is the line for real-life harassment going to remain vague?

Some of us enjoy harming other players with a passion, and the boundaries between character and person are bound to be crossed without clear guidelines on what isn't allowed.

If you think you might have crossed a line, you probably did. Clear lines would only be abused and make a mess for the GMs. With a grey area, they can better decide on a case by case basis without internet lawyers going "technically" on them.


What if I don't even have any reason to think it crossed the line?

Maybe I'm just bumping some miners and suddenly one of them thinks I'm harassing them in particular?

CCP apparently gets to decide what harassment is, with no clear precedence of what harassment is within EVEs context.

“Die trying” is the proudest human thing.
Kristalll
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#66 - 2014-09-11 02:50:12 UTC
Aiwha wrote:
[quote=CCP Falcon]
tl;dr to scammers/gankers. If you can't figure out where the line is, that's a personal problem and you should probably see about some counseling irl. Because the rest of us know when and where we have to stop.


Okay, then enlighten us on when and where.

“Die trying” is the proudest human thing.
Hannibal Crusoe
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#67 - 2014-09-11 02:51:38 UTC
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
CCP Falcon wrote:
Titus Tallang wrote:
can we expect some clear-cut rules on what you would classify as 'real life harassment'?


It isn't our job to dictate to people how to maintain a base standard of human decency toward one another, and we're not going to do so.
...
Cut and dried, that's all we have to say on the matter.

No, it kind of is your job to do this.

Case in point: if I am ransoming someone, and they tell me that while they're going to pay the ransom, this will also cause them to cut back on their food expenditures for the month and/or skip meals, does this constitute as harassing someone out of the game? Is this something that can get me punished, were my victim to make such a claim in a support petition?

Because I don't see any better example of affecting someone's real-life well-being than this. Causing someone to do something detrimental to their health as a result of my in-game actions appears to be as much of a real-life effect as something can be.


If I asked you for 2 billion isk so I could feed my family next week, you would call it a scam.
If you refused to help me out and then started engaging in conversation about how good food tastes, how children need it.
They you could be harassing me.

Ride a white mare in the footsteps of dawn
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#68 - 2014-09-11 02:54:17 UTC
Kristalll wrote:
I'm here for the sole purpose of amusing Mr Epeen with my bizzaro post train.


Thank you.

Mr Epeen Cool
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#69 - 2014-09-11 02:55:20 UTC
Amyclas Amatin wrote:
CCP Falcon wrote:
Titus Tallang wrote:
can we expect some clear-cut rules on what you would classify as 'real life harassment'?


It isn't our job to dictate to people how to maintain a base standard of human decency toward one another, and we're not going to do so.

The bottom line is that it's down to members of the community to know where the line crosses from common decency to harassment. We will not draw a line in the sand so that people can skirt on the edge of it and bend the rules as much as possible.

This isn't a debate about what constitutes "harassment". If you're not familiar with the word, find the definition in a dictionary and that will satisfy your question.

What we will do, is continue to use best judgement on a case by case basis to ensure that real life harassment is kept out of the game, and ensure that those who choose to involve themselves in such activities are no longer permitted to be part of our community.

Cut and dried, that's all we have to say on the matter.


Share: Cite / link:
ha·rass (h-rs, hrs)
tr.v. ha·rassed, ha·rass·ing, ha·rass·es
1. To irritate or torment persistently.
2. To wear out; exhaust.
3. To impede and exhaust (an enemy) by repeated attacks or raids.

"Harassment" isn't the issue. We harass each other in-game ALL THE TIME. A hell-camp is harassment. Suicide ganking is harassment. We've recently hell-camped some inhabitants of 5zxx-k until they are no-longer able to live in that system. (Thank you CCP, for the wonderful mordus legion ships, now in CFC control)

What we want to know is when it crosses the fourth wall into REAL LIFE harassment.

The people involved in the bonus room do not persistently target anyone over days or weeks. Nor do we follow anyone home or stalk anyone. Though I have no doubt that the tear collection is an intense experience, it is done in a single incident of scamming, and no one is forcing anyone to stay on our coms. People have left our coms on their own you know.

If you do not give clarification, there will be no end to the speculation, and that in itself can do more harm to your public image than any debate over rules and rule-skirting can.



Gee, why not just stop humiliating people on coms entirely? It's not like "bonus rooms" are an essential part of the game. Stick to playing to the game and chatting in local, and avoid all doubt.
evepal
Scholar of Rationality
#70 - 2014-09-11 02:59:30 UTC  |  Edited by: evepal
Crumplecorn wrote:
What's it got to do with anything? Sure, we can study the reasons why people don't walk away from bad situations, but that doesn't change the fact that they can walk away. Distinctly different from swatting, where the ordeal cannot be terminated with a single button press.


The police officer on the second visit told me not to get involved with the FPS tournament and to distance myself, i.e. to just stop. I can't, why? because that's my life. I've invested time into managing a team, no more than they've invested time into the assets that they've associated having fun with. You go ask a gambler who's selling his house to fuel his addiction, 'why?' and I'm pretty sure you'll get the same response. Very basic psychology, "in for a dime, in for a dollar".

"we can study the reason people don't walk away" completely negates your point "but that doesn't change the fact they can" in of itself.

Crumplecorn wrote:
If you meant that someone received the items, why not say so instead of saying they were taken? Because it doesn't sound as good. "Oh no the evil sociopaths received all my items!!".


Oh no, my word choice most certainly has ulterior motive! Word illuminati! Word illuminati! Or... I could have just used the word as it's perfectly acceptable and very common to do so... brb, going to 'receive' my aspirin.

Crumplecorn wrote:
A very fancy way of saying I'm attacking your argument rather than your conclusion. Well, I am.


Ok, so you're just trolling for the sake of it, and not really wanting to contribute to the discussion, got it. Seeing as you have no fault with the conclusion, then there's really no purpose to "attack" anything else I have to say. Also, attack? Really? It's a civilised discussion, at least, I think so.
Gilbaron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#71 - 2014-09-11 03:00:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Gilbaron
the other day, one of our FCs raged because people didn't bring enough dictors

here is a recording:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CHIshCZjoH0

he is obviously emotionally agitated and extremely distressed.

can i please get everyone in the fleet banned for not bringing enough dictors ? (except of course the two people who did and the poor FC who raged)

i have also been called a bad word for african american vagina a few times by a guy called Vince Draken. I don't like words like that, they are causing me trauma please ban him.

oh, and here:
https://soundcloud.com/nan-6/grath-rage-07-07-2013

a guy called Grath Telkin is extremely distressed because someone lost a revenant

can we please ban everyone who ****** up in the game ?
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#72 - 2014-09-11 03:06:01 UTC
Gilbaron wrote:
the other day, one of our FCs raged because people didn't bring enough dictors

here is a recording:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CHIshCZjoH0

he is obviously emotionally agitated and extremely distressed.

can i please get everyone in the fleet banned for not bringing enough dictors ? (except of course the two people who did and the poor FC who raged)

i have also been called a african american vagina a few times by a guy called Vince Draken. I don't like words like that. please ban him.


You do an excellent job of role playing stupid.

Mr Epeen Cool
Kristalll
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#73 - 2014-09-11 03:30:44 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:


Gee, why not just stop humiliating people on coms entirely? It's not like "bonus rooms" are an essential part of the game. Stick to playing to the game and chatting in local, and avoid all doubt.


Since when is singing songs humiliating?

“Die trying” is the proudest human thing.
Rhiannon Marius
Marius Family Enterprises Unlimited
#74 - 2014-09-11 04:08:50 UTC
This is CCP's game.
They make the rules and guidelines and they are entitled to have grey areas and make judgement upon them.
Having said that; this is a character based game. You are not literally you in this game.
You're character is an avatar. This avatar can communicate in game. Meaning you can speak to others and sing to others.

There are things your in game avatar cannot do however.
They cannot send you a picture of themselves where they are smeared in mayo for instance. Think about what the other persons avatar is legally and physically capable of doing in game and you will be less likely to be concerned about what you are doing is right or wrong. If you are trying to push an edge case or are saying yea but; please refer to sentence one and two.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#75 - 2014-09-11 04:11:50 UTC
CCP Falcon wrote:
Titus Tallang wrote:
can we expect some clear-cut rules on what you would classify as 'real life harassment'?


It isn't our job to dictate to people how to maintain a base standard of human decency toward one another, and we're not going to do so.

The bottom line is that it's down to members of the community to know where the line crosses from common decency to harassment. We will not draw a line in the sand so that people can skirt on the edge of it and bend the rules as much as possible.

This isn't a debate about what constitutes "harassment". If you're not familiar with the word, find the definition in a dictionary and that will satisfy your question.

What we will do, is continue to use best judgement on a case by case basis to ensure that real life harassment is kept out of the game, and ensure that those who choose to involve themselves in such activities are no longer permitted to be part of our community.

Cut and dried, that's all we have to say on the matter.


Yes, or no.

Are song ransoms legal?

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#76 - 2014-09-11 04:25:40 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
CCP Falcon wrote:
Titus Tallang wrote:
can we expect some clear-cut rules on what you would classify as 'real life harassment'?


It isn't our job to dictate to people how to maintain a base standard of human decency toward one another, and we're not going to do so.

The bottom line is that it's down to members of the community to know where the line crosses from common decency to harassment. We will not draw a line in the sand so that people can skirt on the edge of it and bend the rules as much as possible.

This isn't a debate about what constitutes "harassment". If you're not familiar with the word, find the definition in a dictionary and that will satisfy your question.

What we will do, is continue to use best judgement on a case by case basis to ensure that real life harassment is kept out of the game, and ensure that those who choose to involve themselves in such activities are no longer permitted to be part of our community.

Cut and dried, that's all we have to say on the matter.


Yes, or no.

Are song ransoms legal?
Yes or no.

Do you know what "that's all we have to say on the matter" means?

Mr Epeen Cool
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#77 - 2014-09-11 04:26:17 UTC
This is all I have to say on the matter.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Destination SkillQueue
Doomheim
#78 - 2014-09-11 04:34:03 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
CCP Falcon wrote:

We will not draw a line in the sand so that people can skirt on the edge of it and bend the rules as much as possible.



Is the line here?


You know full well, that if they say it's ok, these douchecicles will just strain that ruling to its limit and will then try to rules lawyer their way out of trouble when they're caught bullying people again.
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#79 - 2014-09-11 04:39:03 UTC
Kristalll wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:


Gee, why not just stop humiliating people on coms entirely? It's not like "bonus rooms" are an essential part of the game. Stick to playing to the game and chatting in local, and avoid all doubt.


Since when is singing songs humiliating?


When it is done in a humiliating fashion - like forcing someone to grovel for their isk in a bonus room as they get increasingly agitated upon figuring out that the game is rigged.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#80 - 2014-09-11 04:40:16 UTC
Destination SkillQueue wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
CCP Falcon wrote:

We will not draw a line in the sand so that people can skirt on the edge of it and bend the rules as much as possible.



Is the line here?


You know full well, that if they say it's ok, these douchecicles will just strain that ruling to its limit and will then try to rules lawyer their way out of trouble when they're caught bullying people again.


See Remiel's post above your own.

Is that allowed, or not? Every single indication is that it is allowed, anything I have to go by tells me that CCP considers song ransoms acceptable.

So just say it. Yes, or no?

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.