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A Reminder Regarding Real Life Harassment

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Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#601 - 2014-09-12 08:08:18 UTC
La Rynx wrote:
Arden Elenduil wrote:
I have a quick question here myself. If a player were to go outside of the game and look up my personal information such as real name, address, workplace, etc....
And use those ingame to threathen me by spreading that info around. How would you look upon that? Worthy of the same punishment as these people got?


Yes, that is a real life threat.
It invites "idiots" to take silly actions against you. (swatting)
--> bannable offense


According to my experience, where essentially this happened to me, it's not bannable at all. And they were threatening my family.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Dave Stark
#602 - 2014-09-12 08:08:57 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
FleetWarp Ichoriya wrote:
Mind you you only rent a license to use EVE-Online, they can nullify your license at any time.

And so can I.

Stop acting like customer-company relations is a one-way street where the company just does whatever it wants without consequence, because that really isn't the case.

If CCP starts banning a bunch of people under questionable and ambiguous circumstances, others will get fed up and take their patronage elsewhere.


whether it's banned gankers, or whining carebears, i'll wager the volume of people who quit every time ccp do something they dislike is lower than people would believe.
La Rynx
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#603 - 2014-09-12 08:17:06 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
FleetWarp Ichoriya wrote:
Mind you you only rent a license to use EVE-Online, they can nullify your license at any time.

And so can I.

Stop acting like customer-company relations is a one-way street where the company just does whatever it wants without consequence, because that really isn't the case.

If CCP starts banning a bunch of people under questionable and ambiguous circumstances, others will get fed up and take their patronage elsewhere.


Then, please, leave.
Since you don't like what CCP is trying and do not try to understand whats happening, you can not only repeat yourself and stomp with you feet. You can leave.
This is an empty threat, CCP will not lose a lot of ppl.

Atomic Virulent : "You can't spell DOUCHE. without CODE."
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#604 - 2014-09-12 08:18:56 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
FleetWarp Ichoriya wrote:
Mind you you only rent a license to use EVE-Online, they can nullify your license at any time.

And so can I.

Stop acting like customer-company relations is a one-way street where the company just does whatever it wants without consequence, because that really isn't the case.

If CCP starts banning a bunch of people under questionable and ambiguous circumstances, others will get fed up and take their patronage elsewhere.


whether it's banned gankers, or whining carebears, i'll wager the volume of people who quit every time ccp do something they dislike is lower than people would believe.

Yeah, each individual time. But it adds up.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
FleetWarp Ichoriya
#605 - 2014-09-12 08:26:31 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:

Yeah, each individual time. But it adds up.

And others will fill the gaps.
I could imagine that the reputation of a toxic community is stopping more people to sub.

Nothing sweeter than tears of tearcollectors. mhh yummy!
Mira Robinson
#606 - 2014-09-12 08:26:50 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
FleetWarp Ichoriya wrote:
Mind you you only rent a license to use EVE-Online, they can nullify your license at any time.

And so can I.

Stop acting like customer-company relations is a one-way street where the company just does whatever it wants without consequence, because that really isn't the case.

If CCP starts banning a bunch of people under questionable and ambiguous circumstances, others will get fed up and take their patronage elsewhere.


whether it's banned gankers, or whining carebears, i'll wager the volume of people who quit every time ccp do something they dislike is lower than people would believe.

Yeah, each individual time. But it adds up.

Yeah, obviously.

The biggest dip was the Incarna disaster, so don't act like CCP standing up to harassment and extreme griefing is going to destroy the game.

Chances are, when this game finally goes under, the players are going to destroy themselves, and try to blame it on CCP.

Earlier today, the Dixon Mining Guild and the Butz Manufacturing Corporation formed a coalition.

It's hard to tell if there is a light at the end of the tunnel for the Dixon-Butz Alliance.
Cismet
Silent Knights.
LinkNet
#607 - 2014-09-12 08:27:44 UTC
C: Tell us why each player is banned -

This is unnecessary in the main, but if you're going to mass-ban then the reasons for the mass-ban need to be clear. Without mentioning names.

R: Transparency and a visual into what the rules are.

What CCP considers to be unacceptable harassment needs to be made clear. Noone is suggesting that this game be lowered in threshold to the level of WoW, or other MMO's, but in a world where harassment is allowed and encouraged (assisted by CCP themselves in the cases of Burn Jita and Hulkageddon for example) then they need to be clear where they draw the line as to what is unacceptable. Anything less is patently unfair.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#608 - 2014-09-12 08:31:44 UTC
Mira Robinson wrote:
The biggest dip was the Incarna disaster, so don't act like CCP standing up to harassment and extreme griefing is going to destroy the game.

That's not actually the point of anything that I said, ever.
Try to keep up.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Mira Robinson
#609 - 2014-09-12 08:37:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Mira Robinson
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Mira Robinson wrote:
The biggest dip was the Incarna disaster, so don't act like CCP standing up to harassment and extreme griefing is going to destroy the game.

That's not actually the point of anything that I said, ever.
Try to keep up.

Actually, that is the point.

You claimed individual unsubs would add up. The biggest noticeable dip was 4 years ago. Nothing has added up. People quit for all number of reasons, never in large numbers due to behavior-related bans.

Keep trying.

Earlier today, the Dixon Mining Guild and the Butz Manufacturing Corporation formed a coalition.

It's hard to tell if there is a light at the end of the tunnel for the Dixon-Butz Alliance.
Cismet
Silent Knights.
LinkNet
#610 - 2014-09-12 08:39:38 UTC
Burl en Daire wrote:
If a pilot has to ask "Is this a ban-able offense?" this it probably is or is very close. The grey areas allows CCP flexibility. The definition of harassment could just as easily be applied to Burn Jita. They harass haulers, destroy their ship and then they and CCP put out data that shows the destruction in public.

http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/observing-the-burn-jita-player-event/

[T]he act of systematic and/or continued unwanted and annoying actions of one party or a group, including threats and demands. The purposes may vary, including racial prejudice, personal malice, an attempt to force someone to quit a job or grant sexual favors, apply illegal pressure to collect a bill, or merely gain sadistic pleasure from making someone fearful or anxious.
http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Harrasment

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/harass

Grey areas allow for the rulers to loosely define a line that shouldn't be crossed because not knowing where the line is makes people fear that they may step over it and therefore most just stay clear of the grey area. The only way to fix this would be for the community to elect a panel of players that hands out bans, other than that we just have to bend over and take whatever they want to give us.


Yes, lots of people can quote the dictionary. The issue is that we understand what harassment means (the trope of the Eve player is not stupidity), the problem is that harassment in this game is absolutely fine, CCP encourage it as in your first paragraph. Therefore it's not reasonable for players to be able to guess what would lead to a ban. The issue is that CCP is inconsistent as to what constitutes unreasonable harassment and refuses to tell people what they consider unreasonable.

Quoting the dictionary isn't a good way to get your argument across.
Black Pedro
Mine.
#611 - 2014-09-12 08:42:12 UTC
Mike Azariah wrote:

What would you like to see C: changed, specifically, and what do you think the end R: result would be? Make it a one liner and then support it afterwards IF you feel that is needed.




C: Unify the policy for applying account actions for botting and real-life harassment to include an increasing set of penalties starting with a warning/short ban for first offenders increasing to a permaban for repeat or serious first-time offenders.

R: This policy is already used for those caught botting presumably to help teach players that these actions are not welcome in the game. This mechanism should be extended to those who may have crossed the line into real-life harassment in order to help define the behaviours CCP does not tolerate. Not all cases of real-life harassment are equal and neither should be the punishments and a system of lesser penalties will help better shape player behaviour than the current zero-tolerance permaban system.


C: If an account banning is deemed warranted, provide in as much detail as possible (without violating the privacy of other players) to the event that led to the account action.

R: Just providing the general class of rule violation (i.e. real-life harassment) provides no guidance to the player or the community to what action was deemed unacceptable and resulted in the ban, especially if said events occurred weeks or months ago. No-explanation bans are not only unhelpful at shaping behaviour to the gaming environment CCP wants, but are discourteous to the (former) customer.

Both of these will require additional work on CCP's part and open the GMs more to "rule lawyering" by those facing an account action, but would go a long way to making players feel that they are receiving fair and consistent treatment when facing a ban. They would also facilitate the appeals of those mistakenly banned, as the current system of which provides no information to the player is quite stacked against them. And most importantly, they would provide a feedback system where GMs and developers can nudge players back "in bounds" if they are drifting into behaviours that CCP does not want in Eve, instead of sacrificing a paying customer to a misunderstanding of what is allowed and what isn't.

The 8 Golden Rules of Eve

Why Do They Gank?
Rabe Raptor
The Conference Elite
Safety.
#612 - 2014-09-12 08:44:19 UTC
Many people were banned just for knowing e1 and hanging out in teamspeak even though they had nothing to do with the bonus room. CCP's lack of response to this gross oversight is the center of the fuss and all the people respond with "lol tears" when people ask for clarification.

Curiosity =/= tears

Most of you aren't familiar with the tear-collecting process so I understand your nerdy little chubby you get at the opportunity to type it.

Together we can make Highsec a better place! www.lawofhighsec.com

Read it, share it, learn it, quote it, memorize it,  live it, breathe it!
Drago Shouna
Doomheim
#613 - 2014-09-12 08:58:26 UTC
Ssabat Thraxx wrote:
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
Even when CCP does very clearly draw a line in the sand; Erotica 1 for example, a vocal minority are still not satisfied and argue that either there should be no line in the sand because this is, Eve Online and it meant to be 'ard innit' or they see the line and argue that it is is the wrong place.

Once again, I put it to those who want 'clarification' come up with a workable proposal CCP and the player base can get behind.

Most of this thread is just like three year kids kids saying, 'yeah but' to everything their parents say.

Put up, or shut up.


Well, being there are thousands of people playing this game, I'm not sure that "the playerbase" can "get behind" anything. That's a whole lot of people youre expecting to agree on something.

But, I'll give you what I can get behind: CCP can and should vigorously and consistently enforce the rules of the game when we're IN their game, in their house, so to speak. CCP has no juris diction outside of their own servers and "events" such as fanfest. What I do on MY time, on MY property (MY TS server, for example) is beyond the purview of CCP's TOS/EULA. To be perfectly honest, I really can't understand why folks can't seem to wrap their head around that.

Your rules in your house, my rules in my house. Simple.



Erm...Sorry can't agree.

If you work for a company with a anti bullying/harassment/ policy and you took it off the company premises, i'll lay odds that it would still apply if you then harassed someone out of work that you work with.

I would see the policies CCP have working the same way.

It wouldn't surprise me if there wasn't also some legal reasons that they have to act to protect their customers either.

Solecist Project...." They refuse to play by the rules and laws of the game and use it as excuse ..." " They don't care about how you play as long as they get to play how they want."

Welcome to EVE.
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#614 - 2014-09-12 09:24:40 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
Crumplecorn wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
Just block him.
You are somewhat missing the point. Of course we can just block him. But if the response to a player harassing you is to ignore and block him, why doesn't it go both ways?


Because you initiated the harm. You took an action that cost a player his ship, money, etc... and is likely to leave him in an emotionally pained state.


Anyone left in an emotionally pained state after having their pixel ship blown up seriously needs to reconsider their choice of hobby.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#615 - 2014-09-12 09:28:05 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Hell, not too long ago a dev was ransomed for a song.


Yeah I saw that, it was pretty awesome. It stopped being awesome when people started getting banned for doing it though.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
Mira Robinson
#616 - 2014-09-12 09:29:14 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Hell, not too long ago a dev was ransomed for a song.


Yeah I saw that, it was pretty awesome. It stopped being awesome when people started getting banned for doing it though.

Generally that means too many people started doing it as harassment, so don't do it anymore.

Earlier today, the Dixon Mining Guild and the Butz Manufacturing Corporation formed a coalition.

It's hard to tell if there is a light at the end of the tunnel for the Dixon-Butz Alliance.
Dave Stark
#617 - 2014-09-12 09:31:28 UTC
Mira Robinson wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Hell, not too long ago a dev was ransomed for a song.


Yeah I saw that, it was pretty awesome. It stopped being awesome when people started getting banned for doing it though.

Generally that means too many people started doing it as harassment, so don't do it anymore.


what's the arbitrary number on "too many"? just so i can do it before we reach that point.
Cismet
Silent Knights.
LinkNet
#618 - 2014-09-12 09:31:36 UTC
Mira Robinson wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Hell, not too long ago a dev was ransomed for a song.


Yeah I saw that, it was pretty awesome. It stopped being awesome when people started getting banned for doing it though.

Generally that means too many people started doing it as harassment, so don't do it anymore.


That is the most stupid thing I've ever seen. If it's not harassment then the amount of times it's done doesn't make it harassment. If I give money to charity, if I give too much of my own money away does it suddenly become theft?! If thousands of people start donating to charity does it become fraud?
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#619 - 2014-09-12 09:37:34 UTC
Mira Robinson wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Hell, not too long ago a dev was ransomed for a song.


Yeah I saw that, it was pretty awesome. It stopped being awesome when people started getting banned for doing it though.

Generally that means too many people started doing it as harassment, so don't do it anymore.


Too many people are mining. CCP should ban a bunch of miners.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
Dave Stark
#620 - 2014-09-12 09:40:03 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Mira Robinson wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Hell, not too long ago a dev was ransomed for a song.


Yeah I saw that, it was pretty awesome. It stopped being awesome when people started getting banned for doing it though.

Generally that means too many people started doing it as harassment, so don't do it anymore.


Too many people are mining. CCP should ban a bunch of miners.


can they be inconsistent on this please? i need them to sell ore to my buy orders so i can make mad isk from compression.