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A Reminder Regarding Real Life Harassment

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PotatoOverdose
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#521 - 2014-09-12 00:22:53 UTC  |  Edited by: PotatoOverdose
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:

CCP Falcon wrote:
The bottom line is that it's down to members of the community to know where the line crosses from common decency to harassment.

Really? That's cute, because a good portion of your community believes that scamming and ganking constitute harassment.

Doesn't matter what they believe; what matters is what CCP believes. It's always been that way.

CCP has made it very clear that ganking and scamming for isk are ok.

So is ganking for fun not okay?
What about holding people for ransom?

Ganking for fun is a time honored activity too. And CCP condones it. But you know this.

Same goes for ransoms. Hell, not too long ago a dev was ransomed for a song. A while back I was in a birthday fleet for a buddy of mine - we caught a venture in lowsec, had him sing happy birthday in comms, and let him go. CCP condones all manner of ransoms, and you know this too.

There are other activities that are probably not ok. Activities tinged with sadism. Like using the sunk cost fallacy to convince a player to lose all their sp. That stuff can be avoided with common sense, and common decency.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#522 - 2014-09-12 00:24:04 UTC
Mr Epeen wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:

So is ganking for fun not okay?
What about holding people for ransom?

If you really want to be that obtuse then I'll tell you what to do. Petition for an answer and then come back and tell us what you find out.

I'm sure that once they're done rolling on the floor, they'll answer it pretty quick.

Mr Epeen Cool

I feel pretty strongly that this outcome is going to depend on which GM I happen to get.

People have been warned or banned for less.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
PotatoOverdose
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#523 - 2014-09-12 00:26:22 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Or, how about this:

is doxxing okay? Can I go ahead and dox you? CCP seems to be okay with it.

That CCP is ok with doxxing is regrettable, if true. I think it's sad that well known doxxers are allowed near free-reign in eve. Hopefully ccp does something about it in the near future.
CALDARI CITIZEN 14330909
The Conference Elite
Safety.
#524 - 2014-09-12 00:27:19 UTC
Crumplecorn wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Mr Epeen wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:

Are we supposed to believe CCP because reasons?


Yes.

No.

Maybe.

Perchance.

The Artist Formerly Known As AC. 

The terminal end of the digestive system. 

The Best CSM Candidate
Zheng Hucel-Ge
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
#525 - 2014-09-12 00:27:36 UTC
tl;dr? People are confused about how to treat one another and need it stamped on their forehead so they can know. Also, getting rid of people who give EVE a bad name through their practices is really going to be hard on the games image. People who aren't completely screwed up in the head could be downloading the client already and soon be subbing. This is a travesty.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#526 - 2014-09-12 00:27:40 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
Given that just lost weeks or months worth of effort they are going to be in a far more emotionally vulnerable state than you are


Huh

Veers Belvar wrote:
It's just a game, no reason to get angry.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
PotatoOverdose
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#527 - 2014-09-12 00:27:54 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Mr Epeen wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:

So is ganking for fun not okay?
What about holding people for ransom?

If you really want to be that obtuse then I'll tell you what to do. Petition for an answer and then come back and tell us what you find out.

I'm sure that once they're done rolling on the floor, they'll answer it pretty quick.

Mr Epeen Cool

I feel pretty strongly that this outcome is going to depend on which GM I happen to get.

People have been warned or banned for less.

Escalate the petition. I was once permabanned by mistake. I submitted a ticket, and within an hour and forty minutes of receiving the permaban, I was unbanned and a dev apologized for the inconvenience.
ugly inside
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#528 - 2014-09-12 00:29:05 UTC
to compare this to the matrix movie series:

Neo played a video game and found out he could harass agent smith IN THE GAME.. he even bent the rules a little bit.. agent smith harassed back but found he wasnt a big enough troll.. so agent smith took the fight to the real world and in the end he lost..

dont become agent smith.. dont get banned for being upset or stupid.


Agent smith got rekt
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#529 - 2014-09-12 00:33:00 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Mr Epeen wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:

So is ganking for fun not okay?
What about holding people for ransom?

If you really want to be that obtuse then I'll tell you what to do. Petition for an answer and then come back and tell us what you find out.

I'm sure that once they're done rolling on the floor, they'll answer it pretty quick.

Mr Epeen Cool

I feel pretty strongly that this outcome is going to depend on which GM I happen to get.

People have been warned or banned for less.

Escalate the petition. I was once permabanned by mistake. I submitted a ticket, and within an hour and forty minutes of receiving the permaban, I was unbanned and a dev apologized for the inconvenience.

So you acknowledge that people get permabanned by mistake.
Do you believe that everyone that gets permabanned by mistake gets a reversal like you did?

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#530 - 2014-09-12 00:33:27 UTC
As an aside.

Does anyone else get the impression that every morning deep in the little bee inner sanctum there's a lotto to see who has to play the forum idiot that day?

I do. And on top of that, I think they rigged it so James keeps winning that honor.

Because...dude...your posting. It's like the surgeon accidentally removed the entire part of your brain that covers cognitive functions.

Mr Epeen Cool
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#531 - 2014-09-12 00:34:43 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
Given that just lost weeks or months worth of effort they are going to be in a far more emotionally vulnerable state than you are


Huh

Veers Belvar wrote:
It's just a game, no reason to get angry.



The fact that you should look at it as a game, and should not get angry even when suffering significant losses, does not change the fact that some people do in fact get hurt/angry when weeks or months of time they invested goes up in smoke. To actively prey on that anger, to solicit it, to try and inflame it, is what gets people into trouble. There is nothing wrong with ganking/scamming/profiteering in Eve. But what I think that most people would appreciate is that there is something wrong with doing activities solely to antagonize other people, with no benefit to yourself other than to elicit an emotional response from the victim. That is why these folks got into trouble, not because they are gankers or scammers, but because their goal was to emotionally affect their victim. 5 minutes into the bonus room they could have kept all the assets, explained it was all a scam, said gg, and moved on. Why spend hours making the victim do humiliating things by dangling the vain hope of him getting his assets back? How does the benefit the scammers?
PotatoOverdose
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#532 - 2014-09-12 00:37:49 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Mr Epeen wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:

So is ganking for fun not okay?
What about holding people for ransom?

If you really want to be that obtuse then I'll tell you what to do. Petition for an answer and then come back and tell us what you find out.

I'm sure that once they're done rolling on the floor, they'll answer it pretty quick.

Mr Epeen Cool

I feel pretty strongly that this outcome is going to depend on which GM I happen to get.

People have been warned or banned for less.

Escalate the petition. I was once permabanned by mistake. I submitted a ticket, and within an hour and forty minutes of receiving the permaban, I was unbanned and a dev apologized for the inconvenience.

So you acknowledge that people get permabanned by mistake.
Do you believe that everyone that gets permabanned by mistake gets a reversal like you did?

Honestly? The response time and the way things were handled left me with the impression that the system works reasonably well.

I'm sure that if the banned individuals filed a petition, their case will be reviewed. All of my personal experience (admittedly from only one case) points to a fairly reasonable and equitable system.
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#533 - 2014-09-12 00:43:58 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
Given that just lost weeks or months worth of effort they are going to be in a far more emotionally vulnerable state than you are


Huh

Veers Belvar wrote:
It's just a game, no reason to get angry.



The fact that you should look at it as a game, and should not get angry even when suffering significant losses, does not change the fact that some people do in fact get hurt/angry when weeks or months of time they invested goes up in smoke. To actively prey on that anger, to solicit it, to try and inflame it, is what gets people into trouble. There is nothing wrong with ganking/scamming/profiteering in Eve. But what I think that most people would appreciate is that there is something wrong with doing activities solely to antagonize other people, with no benefit to yourself other than to elicit an emotional response from the victim. That is why these folks got into trouble, not because they are gankers or scammers, but because their goal was to emotionally affect their victim. 5 minutes into the bonus room they could have kept all the assets, explained it was all a scam, said gg, and moved on. Why spend hours making the victim do humiliating things by dangling the vain hope of him getting his assets back? How does the benefit the scammers?


By making the scam look legit. The scammer is supposed pressure on the mark to get his stuff back not to elicit a reaction, but to make it seem like he can. Sometimes it usually only takes a little pressure, and the mark quits. If the mark quits, then he will be less likely to run around saying, "it's a scam," because he never went far enough to see if he would actually get his stuff back.

If they just rolled in and ran off with the mark's stuff, the mark'd be all over local and the forums calling 'em out on it in a heartbeat, and that's not good for business.

Neither is getting banned though. That'll put a wrinkle in your business too...

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Mike Azariah
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#534 - 2014-09-12 00:47:02 UTC
http://eve-search.com/stats/thread/372621-1

I love stats and numbers and the things they tell you. Who has the most to say and what they have to say.

Letting you know I am still reading, still following this but uncerstand that CSM does not have a direct say in bans, petitions, or gm decisions. We can ask questions and suggest that grey lines be made clearer (or not) while talking to various departments when at summits etc.

So while I enjoy the conversational merry-go-round you guys have going I want to toss a question in

What would you like to see C: changed, specifically, and what do you think the end R: result would be? Make it a one liner and then support it afterwards IF you feel that is needed.

example:

C: Tell us why each player is banned. R: Transparency and a visual into what the rules are.

or

C: Write a complete and exacting list of what is a bannable offence. R: LOts to read next summer and prepares me for my eventual internet lawyer degree

or

C: Leave it as is but reopen old cases where people shoulda been banned but were not. R: Lots of empty space to play in

m

Mike Azariah  ┬──┬ ¯|(ツ)/¯
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#535 - 2014-09-12 00:49:33 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
The fact that you should look at it as a game, and should not get angry even when suffering significant losses, does not change the fact that some people do in fact get hurt/angry when weeks or months of time they invested goes up in smoke. To actively prey on that anger, to solicit it, to try and inflame it, is what gets people into trouble. There is nothing wrong with ganking/scamming/profiteering in Eve. But what I think that most people would appreciate is that there is something wrong with doing activities solely to antagonize other people, with no benefit to yourself other than to elicit an emotional response from the victim. That is why these folks got into trouble, not because they are gankers or scammers, but because their goal was to emotionally affect their victim. 5 minutes into the bonus room they could have kept all the assets, explained it was all a scam, said gg, and moved on. Why spend hours making the victim do humiliating things by dangling the vain hope of him getting his assets back? How does the benefit the scammers?


The sentence I quoted was in your response to a scenario that went directly from a gank to a racist rant by the gankee. By setting up your response as if it was about the bonus room scandal, you've set yourself up a nice straw man. So I won't respond to that.

So, why should one party in a consensual encounter* be bound by the rules of the game and the other party not? Why is it up to the victim of harassment to "be the bigger man" and not up to the harasser to refrain from harassing them in the first place?

Why is it that you think that the people whose gameplay you dislike should have to muzzle themselves while their harassers attack them?


*The nature of the game is such that all encounters between players that follow the rules of the game are inherantly consensual. e.g. the ganker-gankee encounter.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
PotatoOverdose
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#536 - 2014-09-12 00:52:52 UTC  |  Edited by: PotatoOverdose
C: Tell us why each player is banned.

R: It'll make for good content when the forums have a dry spell.


Seriously though, I think the current system is fine.
PotatoOverdose
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#537 - 2014-09-12 00:55:32 UTC
Here's a good one:

C: Ban all well-known doxxers.

R: Doxxing is creepy as ****.
Myles Wong
The One's Who Matter
#538 - 2014-09-12 00:58:48 UTC
Hubris:

noun
1.
excessive pride or self-confidence; arrogance.

I would say this is the root of the issue. CCP gave us a sandbox to play in. They allowed groups of individuals to create content (metagame) within the confines of the sandbox. These groups were even allowed to create and enforce their own rules within the sandbox and impose their will on other players. Once the game crossed over the sandbox lines and into the real world it becomes necessary for the EULA/ToS to be enforced. A subset of players believes they can play by their rules without consequence and complete disregard for players who stick to the rules as defined by CCP. Is this debate really about the reason for the mass ban or the fact that it actually happened? Some of those whose names are known have been witnessed to goading, flaming and trolling their victims into reacting with comments and threats that are bannable. Those banned have threatened to petition to get their victims banned for the reactions they incited. This is the biggest example of irony colliding with hypocrisy that I've seen yet. Bottom line, if you intend to grief people relentlessly, for gods sakes don't post the evidence on other websites...I swear, some people are just dumb enough to rob a bank on foot in 2ft of snow.Roll
Burl en Daire
M.O.M.S. Corp
#539 - 2014-09-12 01:04:37 UTC
If a pilot has to ask "Is this a ban-able offense?" this it probably is or is very close. The grey areas allows CCP flexibility. The definition of harassment could just as easily be applied to Burn Jita. They harass haulers, destroy their ship and then they and CCP put out data that shows the destruction in public.

http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/observing-the-burn-jita-player-event/

[T]he act of systematic and/or continued unwanted and annoying actions of one party or a group, including threats and demands. The purposes may vary, including racial prejudice, personal malice, an attempt to force someone to quit a job or grant sexual favors, apply illegal pressure to collect a bill, or merely gain sadistic pleasure from making someone fearful or anxious.
http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Harrasment

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/harass

Grey areas allow for the rulers to loosely define a line that shouldn't be crossed because not knowing where the line is makes people fear that they may step over it and therefore most just stay clear of the grey area. The only way to fix this would be for the community to elect a panel of players that hands out bans, other than that we just have to bend over and take whatever they want to give us.

Yesterday's weirdness is tomorrow's reason why. Hunter S. Thompson
LUMINOUS SPIRIT
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#540 - 2014-09-12 01:06:52 UTC
Mike Azariah wrote:


What would you like to see C: changed, specifically, and what do you think the end R: result would be?



Change: introduce even lower threshold for bans due to griefing
Result: Healthier gaming experience in high-sec for players

Stuff like bumping orca's/freighters/miners for hours straight
Stuff like shooting new players in velators repeatedly just for lols
Stuff like deliberately stealing mission items from players' missions

All of this and more is griefing. All of this must end. If 10-20 people leave as a result, no problem. The rest will grumble, but fall in line.

And publicize the move. Go to BBC, CNN, tell them how game is cleaning up their act, etc. etc. This will catch the news.

And more people will join.