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A Reminder Regarding Real Life Harassment

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Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#441 - 2014-09-11 21:00:51 UTC
LUMINOUS SPIRIT wrote:
And it was correct of CCP to do so. One does not hang out in these channels just by accident.


Yes they do. These types of channels often send out shotgun invites to loads of people who might or might not be interested in what goes on there, and a lot of us simply accept those invites to get them out of the way and leave it out of sight and out of mind.

Again, this is guilt by association crap that CCP really shouldn't be dealing in.

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#442 - 2014-09-11 21:09:33 UTC
Andski wrote:
LUMINOUS SPIRIT wrote:
And it was correct of CCP to do so. One does not hang out in these channels just by accident.


Yes they do. These types of channels often send out shotgun invites to loads of people who might or might not be interested in what goes on there, and a lot of us simply accept those invites to get them out of the way and leave it out of sight and out of mind.

Again, this is guilt by association crap that CCP really shouldn't be dealing in.


Link me to one thread where a claim of innocence for a ban was legit.

I have yet to see CCP get it wrong on a ban. They spend months digging into these guys activities.

Stop whining and digging for excuses, Andski. You used to not be such a whiner. What happened?

Mr Epeen Cool
FleetWarp Ichoriya
#443 - 2014-09-11 21:09:37 UTC
So let me sum this up:
- Some ppl got banned for as it seems "bonus rounds" -> (its rumoured not all though)
- CCP reminds people to, although Eve is a harsh and cold game, to use at least some human decency towards the player behind the avatar
- people point out that bonus rounds does add nothing to the game when the scam is complete as such and is only used to mock the victim further with their(CCP's) assets as leverage
- eve's bottom sediment is stll too dumb to get it and stay well within the game(!)
- my swimming pool is already filled with tears and overflowing


gg /thread

Nothing sweeter than tears of tearcollectors. mhh yummy!
Jin Kugu
Make Luv Not War
Goonswarm Federation
#444 - 2014-09-11 21:11:57 UTC
funkybacon on the issue

http://funkybacon.blogspot.be/2014/09/as-ban-hammer-swings.html

"What we don't have is a reasonably clear definition of what actually constitutes harassment in terms of Eve. Things that are entirely unacceptable in a game like World of Warcraft for example, happen inside Eve with impunity, and are an accepted part of the norm. There is nothing "decent" about a bad guy, and if being a bad guy is to be an acceptable profession within Eve, rules and boundaries need to be made clear to give people a gauge on what is acceptable, and what is clearly over the line. These lines are important not only for those people living the life of a villain, but also for those tasked with enforcing the rule of law, such as it exists within our game."
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#445 - 2014-09-11 21:13:30 UTC
Mr Epeen wrote:
Link me to one thread where a claim of innocence for a ban was legit.

I have yet to see CCP get it wrong on a ban. They spend months digging into these guys activities.

Stop whining and digging for excuses, Andski. You used to not be such a whiner. What happened?

Mr Epeen Cool


Did you know that permabanned people don't tend to post on the forums to appeal their bans because a game ban extends to the forums? They tend to do that through the petition system. They also don't tend to talk about it much on the official forums after the fact. This new knowledge must blow your mind.

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Black Pedro
Mine.
#446 - 2014-09-11 21:16:12 UTC
CCP Falcon wrote:
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
Of course, it is easier to whine about the 'grey areas' then to actually help CCP remove them.


It also seems that it's very easy to whine about being banned rather than using a shred of common sense to maintain the most basic level of decency and etiquette when interacting with people in EVE.

Yes, EVE is designed to be harsh and unforgiving, but there's a blatant difference between that and outright harassment.

*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal. those people who're saying that the lines are blurred and they don't understand the definition of harassment are looking for clarification so that they know how much they can bend the rules and push the boundaries before we'll take action, with a view to using any statement we make as ammunition for an appeal should they fall foul of the rules and be slapped with account action.

Sorry, but my original statement still stands. CCP will use best judgement on a case by case basis to ensure that real life harassment is kept out of EVE Online.


Sorry, but I haven't heard anyone here whining about being banned here (especially since those banned no longer have access to post in this forum), but rather just people with concerns on how and why these bans are implemented. Perhaps they are not telling the truth, but several of those banned yesterday have said they have had nothing other than a vague reason provided to them and that they do not know what they were banned for. I don't believe they are feigning a lack of understanding for some sort of leniency, but rather I think they are genuinely confused as to what specifically they did since many of them were not involved directly or at all in the events that got Erotica 1 banned (or at least so they say).

This makes some of us who have not been banned (and are still allowed to post) concerned that these punishments are not consistent and/or proportional to anything a player may have done. And the thought that we may be perma-banned for stepping too far across some line, or even just be associated with someone who does, takes a little bit of the fun out of the game.

I don't think you should spell out a definition of harassment as you say, but you need to have some way to indicate to the player base what is acceptable and what is not. Perhaps you should revisit this "zero-tolerence" policy and actually mete out punishments on a "case by case" basis like you claim you are doing instead of just permabanning everyone even tangentially associated with a transgression like what appears to have happened in this case. A few temporary bans would speak volumes to what is allowed and what isn't rather than these blanket bans which just leave things more confused.

The 8 Golden Rules of Eve

Why Do They Gank?
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
Doomheim
#447 - 2014-09-11 21:16:25 UTC

My concern remains that there is feedback that this round of bans included guilt-by-association bans, and possible overreach by CCP.

How can we judge, when all CCP is effectively saying here is 'cant talk about it' and 'trust us', in a vacuum.

I raised these concerns before, and this episode only amplifies them. Having a bunch of pansies who never understood "HTFU" and never will applauding like trained seals is of little comfort.

Also, where are our CSM on this? Where are our 'guardians of the sandbox'? CSM...meh. More trained seals?

F

Would you like to know more?
LUMINOUS SPIRIT
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#448 - 2014-09-11 21:17:51 UTC
Andski wrote:
LUMINOUS SPIRIT wrote:
And it was correct of CCP to do so. One does not hang out in these channels just by accident.


Yes they do. These types of channels often send out shotgun invites to loads of people who might or might not be interested in what goes on there, and a lot of us simply accept those invites to get them out of the way and leave it out of sight and out of mind.

Again, this is guilt by association crap that CCP really shouldn't be dealing in.


Accept random invites - be prepared to deal with the consequences - EVE Online Rule.

But no, I call BS on your claim that ""a lot of us simply accept those invites to get them out of the way"" . You are a Goon - a member of a group who's stated and much-hyped purpose is to ruin other's game experience.

So no, Goons who were in that channel, knew exactly what it was for. No tears shed.
BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#449 - 2014-09-11 21:19:19 UTC
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:

My concern remains that there is feedback that this round of bans included guilt-by-association bans, and possible overreach by CCP.

How can we judge, when all CCP is effectively saying here is 'cant talk about it' and 'trust us', in a vacuum.

I raised these concerns before, and this episode only amplifies them. Having a bunch of pansies who never understood "HTFU" and never will applauding like trained seals is of little comfort.

Also, where are our CSM on this? Where are our 'guardians of the sandbox'? CSM...meh. More trained seals?

F

I have talked to multiple people who have had contact with three different CSM members on this issue. They're trying to get answers.

Founder of Violet Squadron, a small gang NPSI community! Mail me for more information.

BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie's Space Mediation Service!
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#450 - 2014-09-11 21:20:28 UTC
LUMINOUS SPIRIT wrote:
Accept random invites - be prepared to deal with the consequences - EVE Online Rule.

But no, I call BS on your claim that ""a lot of us simply accept those invites to get them out of the way"" . You are a Goon - a member of a group who's stated and much-hyped purpose is to ruin other's game experience.

So no, Goons who were in that channel, knew exactly what it was for. No tears shed.


More platitudes and guilt by association nonsense. I'm sorry but by this logic CCP should have banned everyone involved with SOMER Blink too.

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#451 - 2014-09-11 21:21:51 UTC
Andski wrote:
Mr Epeen wrote:
Link me to one thread where a claim of innocence for a ban was legit.

I have yet to see CCP get it wrong on a ban. They spend months digging into these guys activities.

Stop whining and digging for excuses, Andski. You used to not be such a whiner. What happened?

Mr Epeen Cool


Did you know that permabanned people don't tend to post on the forums to appeal their bans because a game ban extends to the forums? They tend to do that through the petition system. They also don't tend to talk about it much on the official forums after the fact. This new knowledge must blow your mind.


Where did I say it was the banned person protesting his innocence. Apologists like you do it just fine for them.

CCP never ban people lightly. You have to push them and push them hard to get yourself banned permanently. Everyone that got banned deserved it. They pushed and now they're crying because CCP pushed back. And they're not crying on this forum. They're crying (and being destroyed for it) on all the unofficial forums. It's a joy to behold.

Mr Epeen Cool
La Rynx
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#452 - 2014-09-11 21:34:14 UTC  |  Edited by: La Rynx
Yes, indeed a fun thing to watch.

CCP Falcon was clear!

If you are not sure if your action is crossing the line, most likely it IS crossing the line.
Conclusion: don't do it.
Thats all there is!
No magic, no mean intents.

Also:
It appears to me, that this was a general ban wave, than something directed only to a certain group.
Oh and please stop comparing mittanis metagaming to this bonus-room-crap.

Atomic Virulent : "You can't spell DOUCHE. without CODE."
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#453 - 2014-09-11 21:47:43 UTC
CCP Falcon wrote:
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
Of course, it is easier to whine about the 'grey areas' then to actually help CCP remove them.


It also seems that it's very easy to whine about being banned rather than using a shred of common sense to maintain the most basic level of decency and etiquette when interacting with people in EVE.

How incredibly disingenuous of you. There are reports of people having been banned who have gone out of their way to make sure that what they were doing wasn't harassment, and others who only had loose and incidental ties to those who did cross the line but never themselves participated. These people, who don't understand what it was they could have possibly done differently, don't even get a second chance.

Analogously, what you're doing is like expelling a child from school because they chewed a piece of bread into the shape of a gun, and defending it by arguing that guns are banned from schools and must be dealt with harshly.

I've spoken before to Erotica 1 / beancounter jaynara, both on the forums, in EVE mail, and in Jabber. He even sent me along with several others a mail making fun of one bonus room participant. Should I be banned because I spoke to him a few times? Or do you recognize that while I had an incidental connection with him during the time he ran his bonus room, I had nothing to do with it?

CCP Falcon wrote:
Yes, EVE is designed to be harsh and unforgiving, but there's a blatant difference between that and outright harassment.

There is, but the problem here seems to be that you're banning people who weren't even involved in outright harassment at all. Permanently. No realistic chance of appeal. It's absurd.

CCP Falcon wrote:
*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal. those people who're saying that the lines are blurred and they don't understand the definition of harassment are looking for clarification so that they know how much they can bend the rules and push the boundaries before we'll take action, with a view to using any statement we make as ammunition for an appeal should they fall foul of the rules and be slapped with account action.

No, I think people are understandably worried about being banned for things which do not qualify as harassment, by overzealous game masters. There's no oversight. There's no appeal. A GM can just ban you now for whatever they want, and pretend it was for harassment. Who's going to notice and/or care?

CCP Falcon wrote:
Sorry, but my original statement still stands. CCP will use best judgement on a case by case basis to ensure that real life harassment is kept out of EVE Online.

Your best judgment doesn't fill me with confidence.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
La Rynx
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#454 - 2014-09-11 21:51:47 UTC
By reports you mean rumors.

Who said, that all bans where connected?

You are afraid to be hit to?
You will a have a reason to be afraid.

CCP does not ban lightly, no matter what a certain group says.

Atomic Virulent : "You can't spell DOUCHE. without CODE."
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#455 - 2014-09-11 21:51:58 UTC
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4933633#post4933633
CCP Falcon wrote:
What will happen to the people who worked for SOMER Blink?

We have no intention of issuing any reprimand against those people who chose to volunteer and assist the operations of SOMER Blink in good faith.

But of course people incidentally tied to potential cases of harassment don't get the same courtesy.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#456 - 2014-09-11 21:54:43 UTC
La Rynx wrote:
By reports you mean rumors.

CCP's beautiful ban process ensures there's no more reliable source of information regarding bans except in high-profile cases like Blink.

La Rynx wrote:
You are afraid to be hit to?
You will a have a reason to be afraid.

I do sometimes worry about being banned from the game for something I didn't do, or something I did do that isn't ban worthy.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Crumplecorn
Eve Cluster Explorations
#457 - 2014-09-11 21:57:37 UTC
La Rynx wrote:
2 posts in a row
First Post: The line is obvious and if you cross it you earned a ban, end of
Second Post: Well sometimes people get carried away and it's not right but it's understandable

It seems contradictory, but of course the first refers to gankers, and the second to carebears. An excellent use of the forum post mechanism to illustrate the double standard in action.

Witty Image - Stream

Not Liking this post hurts my RL feelings and will be considered harassment
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#458 - 2014-09-11 22:11:09 UTC
Heh, you want to know why I want the line defined?

Because I don't think it exists. I think that these kind of things are 100% a coin toss based on what GM you get.

Because, in my experience, doxxing, stalking, and threatening my life are just fine, nothing was done to punish my attacker.

But singing songs on teamspeak, and laughing about people who get scammed is a perma ban, or even having talked to them that week is a perma ban.

That is NOT consistent. Not even a little bit. And that's why I want the line defined, that's why I say that it's not clear. Because to me, it is not clear even a little bit. You have allowed people to go above and beyond anything that this thread is about, at me and at people I know.

I am not in the wrong for wanting this inconsistency explained.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
evepal
Scholar of Rationality
#459 - 2014-09-11 22:14:30 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Heh, you want to know why I want the line defined?

Because I don't think it exists. I think that these kind of things are 100% a coin toss based on what GM you get.

Because, in my experience, doxxing, stalking, and threatening my life are just fine, nothing was done to punish my attacker.

But singing songs on teamspeak, and laughing about people who get scammed is a perma ban, or even having talked to them that week is a perma ban.

That is NOT consistent. Not even a little bit. And that's why I want the line defined, that's why I say that it's not clear. Because to me, it is not clear even a little bit. You have allowed people to go above and beyond anything that this thread is about, at me and at people I know.

I am not in the wrong for wanting this inconsistency explained.


So, it's just self admitted personal incredulity. You have no fault with the actual ban, you just can't tell right from wrong, from being in the spirit of eve to taking it into the realms of harassment? That does sound a lot like a personal problem.
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#460 - 2014-09-11 22:17:20 UTC
evepal wrote:
So, it's just self admitted personal incredulity. You have no fault with the actual ban, you just can't tell right from wrong, from being in the spirit of eve to taking it into the realms of harassment? That does sound a lot like a personal problem.


so doxxing, stalking and threatening personal harm against other players in retaliation for in-game actions is right in your book

interesting

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar