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Dodging Wardecs

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Valkin Mordirc
#141 - 2014-09-10 12:28:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Valkin Mordirc
Drago Shouna wrote:
"My own opinion on wardeccing, wardec dropping, and everything else that belongs with it, It'll be long, and my own two cents."

So what you're saying is that you're doing what you enjoy in EvE?

And everyone else not doing what you do are not playing properly so can't be enjoying it?

The tutorial has nothing to with it, everyone in every game ever made will always find their own niche in it, a part of the game they enjoy. They'll also avoid parts of the game they don't enjoy.

Before I came here I played another MMO, not as complex as this but nonetheless a PvP oriented game with gathering professions as well. Erm not WoW, yeah I have played it though.

I was the top ranked player on the server for between 18/24 months, and guess what?

I got vilified on the forums, in game, by messages etc, simply because I didn't play the game as the vocal minority thought I should. I played how I wanted to play and was hated for it, they were as insistent as some in this thread that players must be playing the game the wrong way simply by using the play styles available.

I still play a PvP game everyday, I use this game to chillout, I find parts of it very relaxing.

Others want to spoil that, fine, why moan about game mechanics though when I don't let you?



The fact that you are a 'top ranked' member of another MMO doesn't mean anything here, I do not understand why you brought this up. You were not vilified because you were playing the game how you wanted to, you were vilified because you were recognized for an achievement. But congrats on it, it's definitely something to be proud of. < Not sarcasm I actually mean it, it's hard to tell sometimes with text.

Regardless of that,

It deals with the fact that player do not/refuse to understand that a sandbox works both ways. You want to relax? Go ahead, But I can make it impossible for you to do so. Players then when forced with a Wardec they are not prepared to fight, which they should be when they join a player corp, is because they do not understand basic game mechanics.

When a player in a game doesn't understand what he's doing, he's not going to understand what he is doing wrong. If you can teach a player how to do something right. He will do better and be more confident. Making him more willing to face everyday issues that come up when in a player corp.

Rather than dropping corp, because he was never taught how to properly handle a situation in the first place.


Also playing the game the 'right way' is not what I'm saying, what I'm saying is that players are refusing to play a part of the game because they have not been taught on how to react to it in a positive manner. Wardec create content, when you allow a player to avoid content, you basically break that part of the game.

Should a player have a way of avoiding wardecs? Yes,

Should it be as easy as it currently is? No.


EDIT: It wouldn't let you post by qouting because my post was too large and filled the character limit
#DeleteTheWeak
Roushar Prhizer
Doomheim
#142 - 2014-09-10 12:32:09 UTC
Ya still don't get it. The purpose of war decs is to be able to shoot at members of a corporation and their assets in high security space and not get Concord involved.




That is it.

Again.

If your war targets just disband into NPC corps, you *you* *YOU* choose the wrong targets. If you had chosen a better target, you could have forced an encounter by threatening a POS, a POCO, or a some intangible corp identity.


I know the basic desire is to crap on another persons day by non-consensual PvP (otherwise you would be picking targets that don't collapse under a war dec), but war decing a corporation filled with people that have no space assets, and honestly no reason to be in a corporation is your problem. This typically means targeting small corporations full of miners and mission runners. is bad. And targeting medium to large corporations with assets in space, and a mix of player types is good.

The good news is that you can STILL ruin miners, and mission runners day by suicide ganking.



Now, if you wanted to say "lets figure out a way to make corporations MORE useful, so that leaving them is generally undesirable." I could get on board with that. But what you did is "Assign some arbitrary penalty to a common game event so that I can mess up someones day, while I'm trying to mess up their day", and that is just bad.
Valkin Mordirc
#143 - 2014-09-10 12:35:01 UTC
Quote:
I know the basic desire is to crap on another persons day by non-consensual PvP




The problem with this is that any player joining a player ran corp, should know that it is possible to be wardec.


A wardec is not Non-consensual pvp.
#DeleteTheWeak
Milan Nantucket
Doomheim
#144 - 2014-09-10 12:38:59 UTC
Dave Kitaro wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Drago Shouna wrote:


A massive amount of players have no interest in pvp, get over it.


Then they're playing the wrong game.


I disagree. People who enjoy PvE activities such as mining and missioning, and who have no interest in looking for fights with other players, are not playing the wrong game. They are enjoying their preferred activity in the sandbox environment. That they might not like the fact that PvP can be forced onto them also does not mean they are playing the wrong game.

.....

Umm it would be the wrong game. The sandbox environment you are referring to is PvP.

If ALL you want to do is mine then Minecraft is -> that way.
PVE only <- is where WoW is.

Want Pvp then your in the right place.
Seneca Auran
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#145 - 2014-09-10 12:40:33 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Seneca Auran wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

If I go to war to cripple a rivals supply chain and they drop the corp and join another I have have not won. Their freighters are still shipping goods.


So much this.

I would love to know why so many of the rest of you think that CCP designed and intended wardecs to have the effect of changing someone's corp name and costing them a few million isk.


The same CCP that actively touts metagaming/the use of alts for spying/stealing/disrupting/doing pretty much anything you can think of?

That CCP is the one you think holds War Decs to be the gold standard of honor, where when faced with one you must stand toe to toe and fight to the noble bitter end?


Answer the question.

If you think wardecs are working as intended, why do you think that CCP designed them to have the functional effect of costing someone nothing more than their corp name?



Why do you think War Decs are the one area of the entire game where CCP is adamantly opposed to people using any means to get around them?

"Want to create an alt with a clean history to infiltrate someone else's corporation, steal all their stuff, and kill a bunch of their members? Well done you!"

"You disbanded a corp and formed another one to escape a war dec? Dishonor! Dishonor on you! Dishonor on your family! Dishonor on your cow!"
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#146 - 2014-09-10 12:41:47 UTC
Seneca Auran wrote:

Why do you think War Decs are the one area of the entire game where CCP is adamantly opposed to people using any means to get around them?


I don't, and I have never said that.

It's telling as to just how weak your position is, that you have to resort to making up lies.

Now, answer the question.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Roushar Prhizer
Doomheim
#147 - 2014-09-10 12:47:36 UTC
Valkin Mordirc wrote:
Quote:
I know the basic desire is to crap on another persons day by non-consensual PvP




The problem with this is that any player joining a player ran corp, should know that it is possible to be wardec.


A wardec is not Non-consensual pvp.




Whats the problem? That players don't 'get eve' like you think they should? I think after the first one, they would figure that out; and obviously do since they know that corp hopping is a way to deal with it. And no, as I stated above a war dec is just a way to shoot things in high sec without Concord intervention. Non-consensual PvP is when you get caught in PvP when you didn't want to, or expect to. This included getting caught in a bubble camp in null or a camp in low-sex, as well as being stationed camped in high sec by a war deccing corp.


"well the player in null/low sex should EXPECT PVP!!"

No, they should expect to die on occasion, and they should take measures to not die to camps. Same as a carebear corp dropping corp to not die to war decs.

The problem is not the mechanics, the issue is poor target selection. Stop deccing corps that can fold and reform with no interruption to activity, and start deccing corps that cannot. Do not penalize a basic game mechanic because you only pick crappy corps to dec.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#148 - 2014-09-10 12:48:17 UTC
Milan Nantucket wrote:
Umm it would be the wrong game. The sandbox environment you are referring to is PvP.

If ALL you want to do is mine then Minecraft is -> that way.
PVE only <- is where WoW is.

Want Pvp then your in the right place.
Until CCP remove PvE, you are wrong.
EVE may be PvP focused, but it doesn't mean that everyone should be forced into the same type of PvP. Some people like to Market PvP, industry PvP, etc. What is being complained about here is that some people who do not want to "PEW PEW" PvP can use game mechanics to avoid it. Tough luck buddy, not everyone wants to pew pew and the sandbox nature of the game supports those players.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#149 - 2014-09-10 12:51:51 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
What is being complained about here is that some people who do not want to "PEW PEW" PvP can use game mechanics to avoid it.


Your determination to miss the point notwithstanding, that's not what this is about. And you've been told that repeatedly, but you keep coming back to gnaw on this old bone because without it, you don't have an argument.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
malcovas Henderson
THoF
#150 - 2014-09-10 12:55:27 UTC
Milan Nantucket wrote:
Dave Kitaro wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Drago Shouna wrote:


A massive amount of players have no interest in pvp, get over it.


Then they're playing the wrong game.


I disagree. People who enjoy PvE activities such as mining and missioning, and who have no interest in looking for fights with other players, are not playing the wrong game. They are enjoying their preferred activity in the sandbox environment. That they might not like the fact that PvP can be forced onto them also does not mean they are playing the wrong game.

.....

Umm it would be the wrong game. The sandbox environment you are referring to is PvP.

If ALL you want to do is mine then Minecraft is -> that way.
PVE only <- is where WoW is.

Want Pvp then your in the right place.


I believe you are wrong. Although the sandbox is PvP. It does not mean that I should always adhere to your whimsical ways. Because it IS a sandbox, I can walk away from you anytime of my choosing. I do not have to oblige you. I do not have to fight you. Yes you can Gank me, Wd me, even Harass me. I still don't have to acknowledge your existence within the game.

Walking away from you is still PvP, where you are trying to form an outcome and I am trying to deny you that outcome.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#151 - 2014-09-10 12:58:49 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
What is being complained about here is that some people who do not want to "PEW PEW" PvP can use game mechanics to avoid it.


Your determination to miss the point notwithstanding, that's not what this is about. And you've been told that repeatedly, but you keep coming back to gnaw on this old bone because without it, you don't have an argument.
No, As I've pointed out before that's EXACTLY what this is about. If you want to explain how you see if differently, go right ahead, but you refuse to. You keep just saying "nope, that's not it!" then you go on about how NPC corps should be nerfed and wardecs should be unavoidable.

And yes, I have an argument. It's fine how it is. Wardeccers can proceed to cry all day long about how 2 man industry corps fold on day 1 of a war. If wardeccers are unwilling to see that the wardec system itself needs to be balanced out at the same time, nothing needs to change on the opposing side either.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
malcovas Henderson
THoF
#152 - 2014-09-10 12:59:50 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Milan Nantucket wrote:
Umm it would be the wrong game. The sandbox environment you are referring to is PvP.

If ALL you want to do is mine then Minecraft is -> that way.
PVE only <- is where WoW is.

Want Pvp then your in the right place.
Until CCP remove PvE, you are wrong.
EVE may be PvP focused, but it doesn't mean that everyone should be forced into the same type of PvP. Some people like to Market PvP, industry PvP, etc. What is being complained about here is that some people who do not want to "PEW PEW" PvP can use game mechanics to avoid it. Tough luck buddy, not everyone wants to pew pew and the sandbox nature of the game supports those players.



If you cannot see what is wrong with the WD system, then please do not post this type drivel


o7
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#153 - 2014-09-10 13:00:26 UTC
malcovas Henderson wrote:

I believe you are wrong. Although the sandbox is PvP. It does not mean that I should always adhere to your whimsical ways. Because it IS a sandbox, I can walk away from you anytime of my choosing. I do not have to oblige you. I do not have to fight you. Yes you can Gank me, Wd me, even Harass me. I still don't have to acknowledge your existence within the game.

Walking away from you is still PvP, where you are trying to form an outcome and I am trying to deny you that outcome.


Which is just fine, presuming that you have to actually do something to obtain safety. D-scan, mining/missioning while aligned, and so forth.

But snapping your fingers, paying a few mil, and waiting two and a half minutes for complete safety? You really think it should be that easy, that risk free?

I don't. Not in a PvP game.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Valkin Mordirc
#154 - 2014-09-10 13:01:43 UTC
Roushar Prhizer wrote:
Valkin Mordirc wrote:
Quote:
I know the basic desire is to crap on another persons day by non-consensual PvP




The problem with this is that any player joining a player ran corp, should know that it is possible to be wardec.


A wardec is not Non-consensual pvp.




Whats the problem? That players don't 'get eve' like you think they should? I think after the first one, they would figure that out; and obviously do since they know that corp hopping is a way to deal with it. And no, as I stated above a war dec is just a way to shoot things in high sec without Concord intervention. Non-consensual PvP is when you get caught in PvP when you didn't want to, or expect to. This included getting caught in a bubble camp in null or a camp in low-sex, as well as being stationed camped in high sec by a war deccing corp.


"well the player in null/low sex should EXPECT PVP!!"

No, they should expect to die on occasion, and they should take measures to not die to camps. Same as a carebear corp dropping corp to not die to war decs.

The problem is not the mechanics, the issue is poor target selection. Stop deccing corps that can fold and reform with no interruption to activity, and start deccing corps that cannot. Do not penalize a basic game mechanic because you only pick crappy corps to dec.



If a corp drops a dec it's because they don't want to fight, That is fine, I don't have a problem with that. It shouldn't be as easy as it currently is though. I do not however have a suggestion to remedy it.

However poor target selection shouldn't be a issue, I wardec somebody there should be a price to avoid it, The surrender fee was originally designed for that use.

The Corp closing and reforming, is a problem because it is a circumvention to an existing mechanic already in place, it breaks the only point of deccing a corp.


Also my targets are not random, just recently, I wardecced a corp because I noticed a navy raven flying around going system to system, while decced with another corp. My thought is this, If he's either brave enough to fly around like that he must be willing to fight, or he's dumb and should be easy to kill and I can get a nice killmail for it.

After deccing the CEO pays a surrender fee.

This is the intended outcome of how a dec should be dropped quickly. But for the entire corp to leave reform a new one is breaking, because I have to spend more isk on a corp, that has the same name as before if I want a raven kill. Which guess what? If Dec them again, they drop and reform.

Why is it so hard to understand that closing a corp and reforming to avoid a dec is a bad thing?
#DeleteTheWeak
Kitty Bear
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#155 - 2014-09-10 13:01:51 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:
And then, I still think it should cost isk to fold a corp.


I like this


CCP make it happen.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#156 - 2014-09-10 13:02:52 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
If wardeccers are unwilling to see that the wardec system itself needs to be balanced out at the same time, nothing needs to change on the opposing side either.


You don't get it yet.

Highsec does not get more safety.

It gets less. It has too much safety already.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#157 - 2014-09-10 13:07:47 UTC
malcovas Henderson wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Milan Nantucket wrote:
Umm it would be the wrong game. The sandbox environment you are referring to is PvP.

If ALL you want to do is mine then Minecraft is -> that way.
PVE only <- is where WoW is.

Want Pvp then your in the right place.
Until CCP remove PvE, you are wrong.
EVE may be PvP focused, but it doesn't mean that everyone should be forced into the same type of PvP. Some people like to Market PvP, industry PvP, etc. What is being complained about here is that some people who do not want to "PEW PEW" PvP can use game mechanics to avoid it. Tough luck buddy, not everyone wants to pew pew and the sandbox nature of the game supports those players.
If you cannot see what is wrong with the WD system, then please do not post this type drivel
I can see what's wrong with the wardec system, the whole damn thing. Making wars impossible to avoid won't suddenly make it better. Wars are too cheap, too easy to mass declare, too easy to avoide and serve no real purpose beyond turning off concord against gank targets. The whole system needs to be looked at from both sides. Simply casting out the "Everyone must PvP (as in with guns) and nobody should be allowed to play any other way" is ignorant.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Milan Nantucket
Doomheim
#158 - 2014-09-10 13:09:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Milan Nantucket
Lucas Kell wrote:
Milan Nantucket wrote:
Umm it would be the wrong game. The sandbox environment you are referring to is PvP.

If ALL you want to do is mine then Minecraft is -> that way.
PVE only <- is where WoW is.

Want Pvp then your in the right place.
Until CCP remove PvE, you are wrong.
EVE may be PvP focused, but it doesn't mean that everyone should be forced into the same type of PvP. Some people like to Market PvP, industry PvP, etc. What is being complained about here is that some people who do not want to "PEW PEW" PvP can use game mechanics to avoid it. Tough luck buddy, not everyone wants to pew pew and the sandbox nature of the game supports those players.

Get your facts straight.

first I am not your buddy.
Lets see what the none Eve players think:
“In many ways it’s a quintessential sci-fi experience, where thousands of people from all around the globe are waging a huge conflict that will have real repercussions on the politics, economy and social structures of a virtual universe,” said Coker.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2014/01/29/massive-eve-online-battle-could-cost-500000-in-real-money/

Can't wage a huge conflict expecting not to be shot at. You are consenting to PvP by just playing. They can only avoid one type of PvP. Dropping corp and recreating a new corp with the same name has been around forever.

Carebear whining been around just as long. Now you see why it is cheaper to just suicide gank the corp. If you want a change increase the amount of isk involved in creating a corp. Make it equal to what a war dec costs like it used to.

I am also having a hard time finding the articles that explain how awesome mining and pve are in Eve. Strange there are none.
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#159 - 2014-09-10 13:10:06 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Making wars impossible to avoid...


That's not what this is about. Wars are avoidable without dropping corp. Dropping corp is just the :easymode: for avoiding them.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#160 - 2014-09-10 13:10:07 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
If wardeccers are unwilling to see that the wardec system itself needs to be balanced out at the same time, nothing needs to change on the opposing side either.


You don't get it yet.

Highsec does not get more safety.

It gets less. It has too much safety already.
I don't disagree, but the lack of safety you are suggesting isn't right. You want to force people in corps to be victims with no option but to fight back, yet they stand no chance against a high competent and experienced wardec group. That's not going to lead to better content, that's just going to lead to a reduction in subs, since you're effectively campaigning to remove a playstyle from the game.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.