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Dodging Wardecs

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Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1021 - 2014-09-19 11:39:05 UTC
Aivo Dresden wrote:
Xuixien wrote:
erm, the defender can either fight back (they have the same tools at their disposal as the deccers - player skill/experience level is not and should not be a balancing factor) or they can completely opt out with no appreciable penalty for doing so.

Except that they need to recreate a corp, they might lose possible assets, they need to redo installations, ... Sure sounds like nothing compared to spending 10 seconds and paying a minimal amount of ISK, which is pretty much the only thing you need to do. You're right though, wardecs need some fixing.


It takes a piddling amount of isk, and all of a few minutes to dodge a dec. Wardecs on the other hand have a 24 hour cooldown for whatever reason.

You can't really argue minimal effort vs minimal effort + 24 hours here.

Besides, what do you want a wardec to be? Some dumbass minigame that takes time? No, you pay the fee to CONCORD to remove their loathsome presence, that's about it.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Grog Aftermath
Doomheim
#1022 - 2014-09-19 11:40:35 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Grog Aftermath wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Kiandoshia wrote:
All the defender in a wardec can do is to opt out.


Why do people keep repeating this lie?



That's not a lie from their perspective, if you weren't such an extremist you might see that.


There is no "perspective", it is 100% possible to mission or mine during a wardec.




In theory, but in practice that often doesn't happen.

What you are asking is that they should play possum for you so you can get your easy kill mails and they spend another week saving up for their next ship. It's not like it's hard to find them.

You keep on about they have no backbone in essence, well you should take a look in the mirror, because in that respect you're no different. Scared to suicide gank are you?
Aivo Dresden
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1023 - 2014-09-19 11:43:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Aivo Dresden
Yea, I'm having a hard time getting over all the elite PVPer self-entitlement here.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1024 - 2014-09-19 11:47:07 UTC
Grog Aftermath wrote:

In theory, but in practice that often doesn't happen.


I do it pretty much every time someone decs this character's alliance. This is my locator character, I need to keep his standings high.

And I do it in a faction battleship what's more, either a Navy Apoc or a Rattlesnake.

It's possible, and it does happen. But since it requires more than zero effort, carebears write it off as not even being an option.


Quote:

You keep on about they have no backbone in essence, well you should take a look in the mirror, because in that respect you're no different. Scared to suicide gank are you?


You're not even pretending to pay attention, are you? I am a suicide ganker, and an awoxer among other things. But those two being somewhat functional methods to kill someone is absolutely no excuse to leave the third option broken and toothless.

But hey, don't let silly things like facts stop you from just making **** up about me to support your narrative.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Seneca Auran
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#1025 - 2014-09-19 12:14:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Seneca Auran
Remiel Pollard wrote:

The only extremism I'm seeing in this one is people choosing to be defenseless, and then asserting their only choice is to opt out. This "only choice" thing is an absolute, an extreme absolute, as if there's no other option. But there are always other options.

For the record, the choice to opt out =/= the choice to roll corp.


So tell us, exactly what other method does a defender have of directly affecting a war dec? Because last I checked, literally every other aspect of the war dec system is entirely at the discretion of the attacker.

Kaarous Aldurald wrote:

There is no "perspective", it is 100% possible to mission or mine during a wardec.

That is, if you can play the game even halfway correctly anyway.


It's also 100% possible to kill someone in High Sec without a war dec.

Xuixien wrote:

no one in eve has the right to e immune to pvp and by extension of tht i absolutely have the right to force my playstyle on them.


And nobody in EVE is immune to pvp. But then, this thread isn't about 'immunity' to PVP, it's about how unfair it is that 50 million ISK doesn't give 'hardcore PVP'ers who know EVE better than anyone' the right to treat High Sec like Null minus the blobs and bubbles..

Kaarous Aldurald wrote:

Anybody happen to have that Dev statement handy, where they say that they intend all of New Eden to be the wild west?


No, but I do have my copy of the game handy, where a decades worth of game mechanics say they don't intend any such thing.
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1026 - 2014-09-19 12:17:28 UTC
Seneca Auran wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:

The only extremism I'm seeing in this one is people choosing to be defenseless, and then asserting their only choice is to opt out. This "only choice" thing is an absolute, an extreme absolute, as if there's no other option. But there are always other options.

For the record, the choice to opt out =/= the choice to roll corp.


So tell us, exactly what other method does a defender have of directly affecting a war dec? Because last I checked, literally every other aspect of the war dec system is entirely at the discretion of the attacker.


That's a problem with your limited perspective then, not the game.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Kiandoshia
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#1027 - 2014-09-19 12:23:40 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Kiandoshia wrote:
All the defender in a wardec can do is to opt out.


Why do people keep repeating this lie?

No, you do not need to "opt out".

You just need to play the game with more than 1/8th of your ass.

Now, I know that kinda defeats the purpose of what some people would like to think highsec is about, zero effort gameplay, but it does actually work.


Oh come on.. the moment anyone starts shooting back in 95% of all highsec wars, the attackers just dock up.
Grog Aftermath
Doomheim
#1028 - 2014-09-19 12:24:33 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Grog Aftermath wrote:

In theory, but in practice that often doesn't happen.


I do it pretty much every time someone decs this character's alliance. This is my locator character, I need to keep his standings high.

And I do it in a faction battleship what's more, either a Navy Apoc or a Rattlesnake.

It's possible, and it does happen. But since it requires more than zero effort, carebears write it off as not even being an option.


It requires experience as well, something a lot of PvEers don't have as they don't PvP (combat). A PvE ship isn't going to do well against a PvP fit. All they can really do is try to avoid you, which is what they're doing already.

Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Grog Aftermath wrote:

You keep on about they have no backbone in essence, well you should take a look in the mirror, because in that respect you're no different. Scared to suicide gank are you?


You're not even pretending to pay attention, are you? I am a suicide ganker, and an awoxer among other things. But those two being somewhat functional methods to kill someone is absolutely no excuse to leave the third option broken and toothless.

But hey, don't let silly things like facts stop you from just making **** up about me to support your narrative.


So we're back to you want to make it harder for carebears and easier to harass them. Which seems to be a common theme through this thread.

You already have the means and are using them, so why are you trying to make it even easier?



This game has PvP and PvE players, it'll never be a perfect system. The old war-dec system was being used by some as a means of harassment, which is probably why it was changed, if that was the only reason I don't know.

But if you take a hard-line extremist view then you'll never be happy until they've all left, even then you probably won't be happy because you won't have easy targets that don't shot back.
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1029 - 2014-09-19 12:30:48 UTC
Kiandoshia wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Kiandoshia wrote:
All the defender in a wardec can do is to opt out.


Why do people keep repeating this lie?

No, you do not need to "opt out".

You just need to play the game with more than 1/8th of your ass.

Now, I know that kinda defeats the purpose of what some people would like to think highsec is about, zero effort gameplay, but it does actually work.


Oh come on.. the moment anyone starts shooting back in 95% of all highsec wars, the attackers just dock up.


Yeah, which means you ran off your attackers. That means that you've beaten them. I will note, though, that you didn't mention attackers dropping corp in the event of defenders being more than the attackers expected. See, as long as defenders can get out of decs this easily, so too can attackers when the defenders do actually decide to strike back.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Solecist Project
#1030 - 2014-09-19 12:31:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Solecist Project
Can't we just have Harkonnen and Kane here and take care of it?

This circlejerking leads nowhere at all
and just makes people less and less thoughtfull.

Hey Remiel ... there really is no point.

Everything relevant has been said already.

Argueing for the sake of argueing,
just because one feels like he is right is stupid, nothing more.

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia
Seneca Auran
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#1031 - 2014-09-19 12:35:28 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:

That's a problem with your limited perspective then, not the game.


Yes...it's all a matter of 'perspective' that initiating, maintaining, and accepting surrender offers for a War Dec are entirely up to the whim of the attacker, and that corp rolling is the only direct way a defender has of affecting the mechanic.

Kaarous Aldurald wrote:

I do it pretty much every time someone decs this character's alliance. This is my locator character, I need to keep his standings high.

And I do it in a faction battleship what's more, either a Navy Apoc or a Rattlesnake.

It's possible, and it does happen. But since it requires more than zero effort, carebears write it off as not even being an option.



What?! An alt!? EVE is a game of cold, hard, inescapable consequences! You can't just go and make a new character to get things done without inconveniencing or exposing your main character!

Oh wait...you absolutely can. And it's not only tolerated, but actively encouraged and touted as a feature of the game.

Gee..I wonder if that might have more to do with why 'War Decs' are a broken and toothless mechanic than carebears not wanting to pad your killboards.
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1032 - 2014-09-19 12:39:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Remiel Pollard
Seneca Auran wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:

That's a problem with your limited perspective then, not the game.


Yes...it's all a matter of 'perspective' that initiating, maintaining, and accepting surrender offers for a War Dec are entirely up to the whim of the attacker, and that corp rolling is the only direct way a defender has of affecting the mechanic.



Wrong.

I've been in corps that have been decced by Marmite three times. The first time, I lost two ships, on both occasions trying to fight them.

On the other two occasions, we'd learned how to deny them kills, and carry on business as usual. We even went to trade hubs.

Don't tell me that rolling corp is the only way when I have done it plenty of other ways myself.

Deny a deccing corp for long enough, and they get bored, I guarantee it.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Grog Aftermath
Doomheim
#1033 - 2014-09-19 12:42:20 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Seneca Auran wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:

That's a problem with your limited perspective then, not the game.


Yes...it's all a matter of 'perspective' that initiating, maintaining, and accepting surrender offers for a War Dec are entirely up to the whim of the attacker, and that corp rolling is the only direct way a defender has of affecting the mechanic.



Wrong.

I've been in corps that have been decced by Marmite three times. The first time, I lost two ships, on both occasions trying to fight them.

On the other two occasions, we'd learned how to deny them kills, and carry on business as usual. We even went to trade hubs.

Don't tell me that rolling corp is the only way when I have done it plenty of other ways myself.



You won't turn PvEers into PvPers if they have no desire do so.
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1034 - 2014-09-19 12:44:56 UTC
Grog Aftermath wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Seneca Auran wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:

That's a problem with your limited perspective then, not the game.


Yes...it's all a matter of 'perspective' that initiating, maintaining, and accepting surrender offers for a War Dec are entirely up to the whim of the attacker, and that corp rolling is the only direct way a defender has of affecting the mechanic.



Wrong.

I've been in corps that have been decced by Marmite three times. The first time, I lost two ships, on both occasions trying to fight them.

On the other two occasions, we'd learned how to deny them kills, and carry on business as usual. We even went to trade hubs.

Don't tell me that rolling corp is the only way when I have done it plenty of other ways myself.



You won't turn PvEers into PvPers if they have no desire do so.


That's entirely their loss, and entirely not my problem.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Aivo Dresden
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1035 - 2014-09-19 12:46:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Aivo Dresden
Remiel Pollard wrote:
That's entirely their loss, and entirely not my problem.
The same goes for them. Your whine is entirely not their problem either. So why don't you get out with your self-entitled nonsense? You're boring us.
Hiply Rustic
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1036 - 2014-09-19 12:49:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Hiply Rustic
Non-consensual PvP in Hisec was never promised to be free of consequence. Possible, to be sure, but never without consequence. Those consequences come in the form of Concorde.

In Hisec, as in anywhere else, no one should be safe from PvP...and they aren't...but in Hisec the ganked know, by design, there will be a price paid by those who force PvP on them. There will at least be the minimal retribution of Concorde turning the gankers boat into destructible content.

Hence, you know, Hisec. Accepting the consequences of forcing someone else to PvP.

WarDecs are one of the by-design ways around those consequences, a way around the intended consequences of non-consensual PvP in Hisec.

Leaving a coporation or folding the corporation are by-design ways to force the non-consensual PvPer to face consequences for his actions. Leaving or folding a corporation in no way makes anyone, anywhere, immune to non-consensual PvP. It simply forces Hisec PvPers to pay for their pleasure.

Ralph King-Griffin wrote: "Eve deliberately excludes the stupid and the weak willied." EvE: Only the strong-willied need apply.
Seneca Auran
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#1037 - 2014-09-19 12:49:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Seneca Auran
Remiel Pollard wrote:

Yeah, which means you ran off your attackers. That means that you've beaten them. I will note, though, that you didn't mention attackers dropping corp in the event of defenders being more than the attackers expected. See, as long as defenders can get out of decs this easily, so too can attackers when the defenders do actually decide to strike back.


Well there you go! Balance! Everybody's happy.

Quote:

Wrong.

I've been in corps that have been decced by Marmite three times. The first time, I lost two ships, on both occasions trying to fight them.

On the other two occasions, we'd learned how to deny them kills, and carry on business as usual. We even went to trade hubs.

Don't tell me that rolling corp is the only way when I have done it plenty of other ways myself.

Deny a deccing corp for long enough, and they get bored, I guarantee it.


And how did any of that directly affect the war dec? The attacker being lazy/predictable/incompetent does not change the fact that, short of rolling corp, they still have absolute control over how long the war dec lasts, and can keep it going for as long as they like and pick off kills whenever it's convenient.
Aivo Dresden
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1038 - 2014-09-19 12:53:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Aivo Dresden
Hiply Rustic wrote:
Non-consensual PvP in Hisec was never promised to be free of consequence. Possible, to be sure, but never without consequence. Those consequences come in the form of Concorde.

In Hisec, as in anywhere else, no one should be safe from PvP...and they aren't...but in Hisec the ganked know, by design, there will be a price paid by those who force PvP on them. There will at least be the minimal retribution of Concorde turning the gankers boat into destructible content.

Hence, you know, Hisec. Accepting the consequences of forcing someone else to PvP.

WarDecs are one of the by-design ways around those consequences, a way around the intended consequences of non-consensual PvP in Hisec.

Leaving a coporation or folding the corporation are by-design ways to force the non-consensual PvPer to face consequences for his actions. Leaving or folding a corporation in no way makes anyone, anywhere, immune to non-consensual PvP. It simply forces Hisec PvPers to pay for their pleasure.

+1
This is pretty much the essence of it. They just want their consequence and responsibility free high-sec ganks. Their arguments really make no sense and any reason just goes straight past them.
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1039 - 2014-09-19 12:59:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Remiel Pollard
Seneca Auran wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:

Yeah, which means you ran off your attackers. That means that you've beaten them. I will note, though, that you didn't mention attackers dropping corp in the event of defenders being more than the attackers expected. See, as long as defenders can get out of decs this easily, so too can attackers when the defenders do actually decide to strike back.


Well there you go! Balance! Everybody's happy.

Quote:

Wrong.

I've been in corps that have been decced by Marmite three times. The first time, I lost two ships, on both occasions trying to fight them.

On the other two occasions, we'd learned how to deny them kills, and carry on business as usual. We even went to trade hubs.

Don't tell me that rolling corp is the only way when I have done it plenty of other ways myself.

Deny a deccing corp for long enough, and they get bored, I guarantee it.


And how did any of that directly affect the war dec? The attacker being lazy/predictable/incompetent does not change the fact that, short of rolling corp, they still have absolute control over how long the war dec lasts, and can keep it going for as long as they like and pick off kills whenever it's convenient.


This is pathetic dude. Marmite aren't the only corp that have wardecced RIGID. There was also Forsaken Asylum, Devil's Warrior (who will hunt you in low sec as well), and a good list of plenty of others. For the most part, the only 'convenient' kills they were getting on us were players too incompetent to be allowed to continue on in RIGID. All you're telling me, right now, is that people are too incompetent to gather a little intelligence on their foe, learn their movements, use alts for hauling, and plenty of other things you can do to mitigate an attacker's effectiveness. The real problem here is, no one learns to do this because there's already a too-easy way out for everyone, and it becomes, for many, the go-to solution.

When you say stuff like this, you also reveal your own incompetence to me. Any one of the current big merc alliances could permadec me right now, and I guarantee you not one of them would ever cross paths with me, and I would not even have to drop corp. Again, don't tell me there's only one way of doing something when I know otherwise. It's quite pretentious.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#1040 - 2014-09-19 13:01:28 UTC
Aivo Dresden wrote:
Hiply Rustic wrote:
Non-consensual PvP in Hisec was never promised to be free of consequence. Possible, to be sure, but never without consequence. Those consequences come in the form of Concorde.

In Hisec, as in anywhere else, no one should be safe from PvP...and they aren't...but in Hisec the ganked know, by design, there will be a price paid by those who force PvP on them. There will at least be the minimal retribution of Concorde turning the gankers boat into destructible content.

Hence, you know, Hisec. Accepting the consequences of forcing someone else to PvP.

WarDecs are one of the by-design ways around those consequences, a way around the intended consequences of non-consensual PvP in Hisec.

Leaving a coporation or folding the corporation are by-design ways to force the non-consensual PvPer to face consequences for his actions. Leaving or folding a corporation in no way makes anyone, anywhere, immune to non-consensual PvP. It simply forces Hisec PvPers to pay for their pleasure.

+1
This is pretty much the essence of it. They just want their consequence and responsibility free high-sec ganks. Their arguments really make no sense and any reason just goes straight past them.


Nonsense, and i highlighted the reason why. I personally don't care that people can leave during a war dec though i think NPC corps are not restrictive enough (this is a payer run game, being in a non-player corp should not confer so many advantages for so little cost).

If it was a matter of "fold the corp, lose the corp name forever" I'd have less of a problem with the activity, but it's "fold corp, make new corp with exact same name, keep on truckin". That's lame. I don't care if someone fights or not, but a game like EVE shouldn't have any such zero consequence BS.