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Dodging Wardecs

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Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#301 - 2014-09-10 16:50:35 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:


Wardeccs are useful against medium-large corps, since its a pain for them to drop corp. This means that you can engage them without CONCORD showing up.


Its not a pain, it takes all of 5 minutes.


There are corporate assets, roles, a lot of people not logged in, etc.... It's non-trivial for a 100 person corp to disband and re-form. And that's what wars are good for - an organization with that kind of signature radius needs to learn to defend itself or end up in the dustbin of Eve history.
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#302 - 2014-09-10 16:52:49 UTC
Absolutely Not Analt wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
NPC corps (except started corps) should be war deccable (at the price of the war deccing corp then going to war with the entire faction ie war dec the Scope, end up in a war with the Gallente Federation).


So treat the faction like an alliance, and every corp under it is now your enemy - move the starter corps to the Sisters of Eve Faction and that removes them from the danger zone. I'd be ok with that if you also lose the ability to dock at any station controlled by any of those member corporations (since you basically just declared war on a sovereign Empire) regardless of that station's location in space.


Seems rather absurd to force all the people in NPC corps, who are there specifically so they can avoid wars, into fighting wars. People live in highsec so they will always have CONCORD protection - they have no interest in PvP without CONCORD intervention. It would shock me if CCP would force them into that sort of PvP. They already can get it themselves by just going into lowsec - the fact that they don't shows that they aren't really interested.
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#303 - 2014-09-10 16:53:06 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:


Wardeccs are useful against medium-large corps, since its a pain for them to drop corp. This means that you can engage them without CONCORD showing up.


Its not a pain, it takes all of 5 minutes.


There are corporate assets, roles, a lot of people not logged in, etc.... It's non-trivial for a 100 person corp to disband and re-form. And that's what wars are good for - an organization with that kind of signature radius needs to learn to defend itself or end up in the dustbin of Eve history.


That depends on how the corp is organised. If it's organised as a throwaway corp that can be rolled in the instance of a wardec, like a logistics one as baltec suggested would be, it will not take long at all.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Seneca Auran
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#304 - 2014-09-10 16:53:56 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:

Yes, they do, they always do. You choose to focus your skills on one thing just for the sake of making isk without the ability to defend your chosen method of making a living, then you're choosing defencelessness. I hear this often: "But I didn't skill for PVP". That can ONLY happen if you CHOOSE not to skill for PVP, and it's nobody's fault but your own. It doesn't take that much to skill in to PVP and this is not an excuse, it's a cop out. Just saying, "But CCP put the skills there to be trained" sounds like a morbidly obese man walking into maccas saying, "but they put all those burgers on the menu to be eaten." You still have a choice of skills - they put PVP ones in there as well, you know.


Except, that's not at all an accurate comparison. The entire economy of EVE is player-driven, and mining and production are at the core of all of it. Which you have to train certain skills to be able to do at all, and many more skills to do effectively and efficiently.

So CCP made a 'PVP Game', with an economy that is almost entirely dependent on large groups of people choosing to focus on PVE skills...sounds sensible to me.

Jenn aSide wrote:

Where does this nonsense come from?

Hello, PVE jock here, no one is promoting any pvp here.


Quote:
IIshira
I didn't realize Eve had a PVE server...

Jenn aSide
That inane meme was countered by reminding the 'not in my high sec' crowd that they had chosen to play a pvp game

Kaarous Aldurald
They participated in their own demise when they subscribed to a PvP sandbox game

Milan Nantucket
Umm it would be the wrong game. The sandbox environment you are referring to is PvP.

Valkin Mordirc
Despite what some people say, EVE is entirely PVP oriented

Kaarous Aldurald
And all because I PvP in a PvP game.

Remiel Pollard
This is a PVP game. That's due cause enough for me.
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#305 - 2014-09-10 16:54:10 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
...CONCORD protection....


Doesn't exist.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#306 - 2014-09-10 16:54:13 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Veers Belvar wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:


Wardeccs are useful against medium-large corps, since its a pain for them to drop corp. This means that you can engage them without CONCORD showing up.


Its not a pain, it takes all of 5 minutes.


There are corporate assets, roles, a lot of people not logged in, etc.... It's non-trivial for a 100 person corp to disband and re-form. And that's what wars are good for - an organization with that kind of signature radius needs to learn to defend itself or end up in the dustbin of Eve history.


It takes 5 minutes these days. The freighter alts do not have roles, they don't have corp assets and they can do it the moment they log in. The corp designed to avoid wardecs.

Wars are utterly pointless and the only way to hit someones assets in highsec is to just gank them.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#307 - 2014-09-10 16:56:12 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
Wardeccs are useful against medium-large corps, since its a pain for them to drop corp. This means that you can engage them without CONCORD showing up.
Its not a pain, it takes all of 5 minutes.
There are corporate assets, roles, a lot of people not logged in, etc.... It's non-trivial for a 100 person corp to disband and re-form. And that's what wars are good for - an organization with that kind of signature radius needs to learn to defend itself or end up in the dustbin of Eve history.
That depends on how the corp is organised. If it's organised as a throwaway corp that can be rolled in the instance of a wardec, like a logistics one as baltec suggested would be, it will not take long at all.
Find me the medium-large corps set up like this. I bet you could count them on 1 hand. Reality is that the people who drop and reform will be tiny little corps of a couple of people at most. Most corps that want to avoid decs that way just drop all but the alt CEO and work from NPC corps for the short term. Rebuilding all the roles and titles and re-renting offices, etc, is just way too much hassle.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Ocih
Space Mermaids
#308 - 2014-09-10 16:57:01 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Absolutely Not Analt wrote:


Though, to be frank, you'd have a far more devastating effect on their shipping if you just ganked their freighters once you knew who the pilots were - less warning, and no real reason to drop corp on their part since there's no war dec to dodge.

Edit to add: But I assume you already knew that.


I do. That's the point, wardecs are more or less useless at their job.


That's true, though the useless war dec system is as such because it wasn't designed to manage four and five man corps or as in my case, one man corps. You can't disrupt industry one man at a time in EVE any more than you can run Sov one man at a time.

If they fix corp mechanics so AWOX and thievery aren't running the show, there is a better chance people will stop with these micro corps and the War Dec system will fix itself.
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#309 - 2014-09-10 16:57:54 UTC
Seneca Auran wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:

Yes, they do, they always do. You choose to focus your skills on one thing just for the sake of making isk without the ability to defend your chosen method of making a living, then you're choosing defencelessness. I hear this often: "But I didn't skill for PVP". That can ONLY happen if you CHOOSE not to skill for PVP, and it's nobody's fault but your own. It doesn't take that much to skill in to PVP and this is not an excuse, it's a cop out. Just saying, "But CCP put the skills there to be trained" sounds like a morbidly obese man walking into maccas saying, "but they put all those burgers on the menu to be eaten." You still have a choice of skills - they put PVP ones in there as well, you know.


Except, that's not at all an accurate comparison. The entire economy of EVE is player-driven, and mining and production are at the core of all of it. Which you have to train certain skills to be able to do at all, and many more skills to do effectively and efficiently.


Did I tell you the story of the indi corps standing up for themselves? I believe I did. This so called 'market crisis' you're alluding to will not happen if a few Hulk pilots skill into a few T1 frigs and hybrids to defend their assets. The corps RIGID were assisting had skilled into a lot more than that and were doing exceptionally well on the market.

Yes, you have to train certain skills. You don't have to max them out IMMEDIATELY to be effective and efficient or for the market to survive. This is as silly as claiming that you NEED to have T2 EVERYTHING to be effective at PVP.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#310 - 2014-09-10 16:57:59 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:

Seems rather absurd to force all the people in NPC corps, who are there specifically so they can avoid wars, into fighting wars.


So.... can I ask...

Are you campaigning against Incursions in High Sec?

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#311 - 2014-09-10 16:58:29 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:


Wardeccs are useful against medium-large corps, since its a pain for them to drop corp. This means that you can engage them without CONCORD showing up.


Its not a pain, it takes all of 5 minutes.


There are corporate assets, roles, a lot of people not logged in, etc.... It's non-trivial for a 100 person corp to disband and re-form. And that's what wars are good for - an organization with that kind of signature radius needs to learn to defend itself or end up in the dustbin of Eve history.


It takes 5 minutes these days. The freighter alts do not have roles, they don't have corp assets and they can do it the moment they log in. The corp designed to avoid wardecs.

Wars are utterly pointless and the only way to hit someones assets in highsec is to just gank them.


If wars are pointless then why do Marmite and Cannibal Kane continue to thrive?
malcovas Henderson
THoF
#312 - 2014-09-10 16:59:46 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:

You would move people who are currently in player corps permanently to NPC corps. Would you say that's a good thing?

How is having a slightly more consequential penalty going to keep people in NPC corps? If I jump Corp I cannot rejoin that corp for 7 days. Yet by some strange oversight on CCP's part. I am able to create a Corp with the exact same Name as my previous Corp, within minutes of dropping it.

Having a 7 day stay in an NPC Corp is hardly a penalty, but a step in the right direction.
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#313 - 2014-09-10 17:00:04 UTC
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:

Seems rather absurd to force all the people in NPC corps, who are there specifically so they can avoid wars, into fighting wars.


So.... can I ask...

Are you campaigning against Incursions in High Sec?


No, they can just move over 2 systems and carry on. Not so with a war. Plus incursions don't cost you CONCORD protection.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#314 - 2014-09-10 17:00:06 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Find me the medium-large corps set up like this.


Every single corp in null has one.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#315 - 2014-09-10 17:01:11 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:


If wars are pointless then why do Marmite and Cannibal Kane continue to thrive?


Because they find the stupids and they are not looking to disrupt enemy highsec logistics.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#316 - 2014-09-10 17:01:22 UTC
Ocih wrote:
That's true, though the useless war dec system is as such because it wasn't designed to manage four and five man corps or as in my case, one man corps. You can't disrupt industry one man at a time in EVE any more than you can run Sov one man at a time.

If they fix corp mechanics so AWOX and thievery aren't running the show, there is a better chance people will stop with these micro corps and the War Dec system will fix itself.
Cue the waves of complaints that removing awoxing is adding too much safety, even though like you say it would encourage more player driven corps to form. Right now it's far safer to just create a plethora for solo and small corps, so arguably removing awoxing and pushing more people out of NPC corps would decrease safety. Again though, it would need to go hand in hand with more changes.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#317 - 2014-09-10 17:03:32 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
Wardeccs are useful against medium-large corps, since its a pain for them to drop corp. This means that you can engage them without CONCORD showing up.
Its not a pain, it takes all of 5 minutes.
There are corporate assets, roles, a lot of people not logged in, etc.... It's non-trivial for a 100 person corp to disband and re-form. And that's what wars are good for - an organization with that kind of signature radius needs to learn to defend itself or end up in the dustbin of Eve history.
That depends on how the corp is organised. If it's organised as a throwaway corp that can be rolled in the instance of a wardec, like a logistics one as baltec suggested would be, it will not take long at all.
Find me the medium-large corps set up like this. I bet you could count them on 1 hand. Reality is that the people who drop and reform will be tiny little corps of a couple of people at most. Most corps that want to avoid decs that way just drop all but the alt CEO and work from NPC corps for the short term. Rebuilding all the roles and titles and re-renting offices, etc, is just way too much hassle.


Dude, strawman again. You must really enjoy putting your ignorance on display, don't you. I was explaining how the corps can exist. I've never seen them, nor had dealings with them, but I can think of how they'd exist after baltec briefly mentioned them. How'd I do that? I used my brain. You should try it some time.

Based on the fact that they can exist, I see no reason why they couldn't or wouldn't, or for nulsec corps not to use them for exactly this purpose. Critical thinking, it's important to apply it if you don't want to appear as ignorant as you do Lucas. You don't need to hand out roles and titles to a bunch of alts in jump freighters making runs to and from Jita and Amarr. You don't need to have a shittonne of assets strewn about the place for the corp. You don't even need to have any money in the corp wallet. No bills for offices, nothing. It's just a few alts and their ships. Like, seriously, think for five ******* seconds dude, please, for your own sake, just try applying a little thought before you just blurt out your pure unabashed obtusity for the universe to witness.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Vol Arm'OOO
Central Co-Prosperity Union
#318 - 2014-09-10 17:03:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Vol Arm'OOO
baltec1 wrote:
Vol Arm'OOO wrote:

You're completely missing the point. You want to engage in pvp, the other guy does not. Even if they could get the tools to engage in pvp, they say "f-it, we dont want to." Neither you nor CCP have the power to compel someone to pvp if they dont want to.


Yes we do. Everyone who plays EVE agrees to PvP every time they log in.



Simply not true. You sign up to play a game which may or may not involve pvp. Dont get me wrong. I am all for pvp. In fact, my favorite pvp is asymmetrical pvp - meaning ganking. But the reality of war decs is simple - if a person doesnt want to be involved in a dec, they will dodge the dec, even if it means logging out, which is bad for eve since it removes players, i.e. targets, from the game. You want decs to work? Then you have to make it so that the target of the dec has either something to lose or gain by the dec.

I don't play, I just fourm warrior.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#319 - 2014-09-10 17:05:33 UTC
malcovas Henderson wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:

You would move people who are currently in player corps permanently to NPC corps. Would you say that's a good thing?
How is having a slightly more consequential penalty going to keep people in NPC corps? If I jump Corp I cannot rejoin that corp for 7 days. Yet by some strange oversight on CCP's part. I am able to create a Corp with the exact same Name as my previous Corp, within minutes of dropping it.

Having a 7 day stay in an NPC Corp is hardly a penalty, but a step in the right direction.
Because the guys in 1 and 2 man corps really won't bother with the hassle, it will be simpler to stay in NPC corps. Bear in mind the suggestion being made is they can't dissolve the corp for 7 days, meaning the CEO will be trapped at war.

It sounds to me like you're thinking they should just have to spend a min 7 days in an NPC corp, which I don't think anybody on either side of the discussion will care about since it would be inconsequential. They still would be able to avoid the dec the same way they do and wardeccers would still cry. Besides, they could just make another corp with an alt then join that. OR are you saying leaving a corp at war should mean you can join no other corp at all for 7 days?

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#320 - 2014-09-10 17:05:47 UTC
Vol Arm'OOO wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Vol Arm'OOO wrote:

You're completely missing the point. You want to engage in pvp, the other guy does not. Even if they could get the tools to engage in pvp, they say "f-it, we dont want to." Neither you nor CCP have the power to compel someone to pvp if they dont want to.


Yes we do. Everyone who plays EVE agrees to PvP every time they log in.



Simply not true.


It is true, I can attack anyone at any time for any reason. They have no right to not be attacked.