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Incursion Mom Popping Solution

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Klyith
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#81 - 2014-09-10 18:19:16 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:

I don't think CCP wants there to be a situation where there are no highsec incursions available to run (note how they recently changed the respawn timer). Your solution, as already pointed out, would not ameliorate the problem.


Maybe the reason they made that change was to make popping the mothership early more worthwhile? With the long respawn, farming for the max time possible was pretty much enforced because of the respawn delay. Nobody wanted to pop them because it always reduced their own income.

Now sniping the mothership gives your group the biggest payout and you can get another the next day. Plus it denies further LP to your competitors, raising the value of your own take!
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#82 - 2014-09-10 18:44:05 UTC
Klyith wrote:
[
Well then it seems clear that ganking in highsec incursions needs to be buffed in that case!

New proposal: systems with active incursions have CONCORD response delayed by 300%, and security loss for criminal actions is halved. Sanshas are attacking & suppressing concord too, obviously the police response will be ineffective in a warzone.

It is much more the fact that the fleet doctrines are designed to resist gank attempts (and thus don't shoot back, as this would deny the target reps without the logi going suspect) and the people doing it are pretty good. There are 3 or 4 attack types, which, timed correctly, can really mess up a fleet, but require fairly good timing, a knowledge of the sites and reasonable coordination of a larger than average group of gankers (25-40 catalysts, 15-20 talos or nado)

RubyPorto wrote:


Have you tried? Didn't think so.

Gank every MOM fleet's logi as they undock, see if they still try to run the site.


It has been tried before. there are other ways to get the logi to the site, like staging out of orcas at safe spots. Not to mention many incursion communities have enough logi ships on hand to replace reasonable losses for an entire incursion, so a well run incursion means a full stock to replace those lost to ganking. Some community SRP funds approach those of middle weight null alliances, and are willing to cover any ships lost to ganking. Once again, things which have been done and which can be done again if needed. A brute force or scattershot approach will work poorly. Again, the weak point of the majority of fleets is the players and their discipline, rather than their ships, as those can be enforced as being fit to a standard.

baltec1 wrote:
Sure it would. You kill them and they cant do it.

Unless they have an entire fleets worth of players waiting in the wings. Decs won't work, so the killing them will have to be suicide gank, so it would take a massive number of toons to inflict significant damage to an incursion fleet, with a largish number of players pulling triggers in tight coordination.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#83 - 2014-09-10 19:00:58 UTC
James Baboli wrote:
Klyith wrote:
[
Well then it seems clear that ganking in highsec incursions needs to be buffed in that case!

New proposal: systems with active incursions have CONCORD response delayed by 300%, and security loss for criminal actions is halved. Sanshas are attacking & suppressing concord too, obviously the police response will be ineffective in a warzone.

It is much more the fact that the fleet doctrines are designed to resist gank attempts (and thus don't shoot back, as this would deny the target reps without the logi going suspect) and the people doing it are pretty good. There are 3 or 4 attack types, which, timed correctly, can really mess up a fleet, but require fairly good timing, a knowledge of the sites and reasonable coordination of a larger than average group of gankers (25-40 catalysts, 15-20 talos or nado)

RubyPorto wrote:


Have you tried? Didn't think so.

Gank every MOM fleet's logi as they undock, see if they still try to run the site.


It has been tried before. there are other ways to get the logi to the site, like staging out of orcas at safe spots. Not to mention many incursion communities have enough logi ships on hand to replace reasonable losses for an entire incursion, so a well run incursion means a full stock to replace those lost to ganking. Some community SRP funds approach those of middle weight null alliances, and are willing to cover any ships lost to ganking. Once again, things which have been done and which can be done again if needed. A brute force or scattershot approach will work poorly. Again, the weak point of the majority of fleets is the players and their discipline, rather than their ships, as those can be enforced as being fit to a standard.

baltec1 wrote:
Sure it would. You kill them and they cant do it.

Unless they have an entire fleets worth of players waiting in the wings. Decs won't work, so the killing them will have to be suicide gank, so it would take a massive number of toons to inflict significant damage to an incursion fleet, with a largish number of players pulling triggers in tight coordination.



Agree with all these points. Also the solution to any problem in highsec is not "suicide gank them." The game should be flexible enough to accommodate those looking to do PvP as well as those looking to do PvE.
Klyith
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#84 - 2014-09-10 19:05:47 UTC
James Baboli wrote:

It is much more the fact that the fleet doctrines are designed to resist gank attempts (and thus don't shoot back, as this would deny the target reps without the logi going suspect) and the people doing it are pretty good. There are 3 or 4 attack types, which, timed correctly, can really mess up a fleet, but require fairly good timing, a knowledge of the sites and reasonable coordination of a larger than average group of gankers (25-40 catalysts, 15-20 talos or nado)

RubyPorto wrote:


Have you tried? Didn't think so.

Gank every MOM fleet's logi as they undock, see if they still try to run the site.


It has been tried before. there are other ways to get the logi to the site, like staging out of orcas at safe spots. Not to mention many incursion communities have enough logi ships on hand to replace reasonable losses for an entire incursion, so a well run incursion means a full stock to replace those lost to ganking. Some community SRP funds approach those of middle weight null alliances, and are willing to cover any ships lost to ganking. Once again, things which have been done and which can be done again if needed. A brute force or scattershot approach will work poorly. Again, the weak point of the majority of fleets is the players and their discipline, rather than their ships, as those can be enforced as being fit to a standard.

baltec1 wrote:
Sure it would. You kill them and they cant do it.

Unless they have an entire fleets worth of players waiting in the wings. Decs won't work, so the killing them will have to be suicide gank, so it would take a massive number of toons to inflict significant damage to an incursion fleet, with a largish number of players pulling triggers in tight coordination.


OK in that case you should throw your support behind this proposal:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=372423
so that you can wardec the opposing incursion runners without them being able to dodge.
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#85 - 2014-09-10 19:10:56 UTC
Oh, the solution to several kinds of things is indeed to suicide gank them. I am mostly trying to say that because of the amorphous structure and fairly resilient composition to an incursion fleet, that suicide ganking line members is not the solution. OGB ganks and FC ganking are likely to be far more effective, as are things which mean that large numbers of people are without effective reps.
Though, the fact that I'm willing to admit these are the weak points while being a somewhat active FC means I'm not particularly worried about it.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#86 - 2014-09-10 19:12:59 UTC
James Baboli wrote:

Unless they have an entire fleets worth of players waiting in the wings. Decs won't work, so the killing them will have to be suicide gank, so it would take a massive number of toons to inflict significant damage to an incursion fleet, with a largish number of players pulling triggers in tight coordination.


Its in lowsec, decs are not needed.

Stop trying to make excuses for your lack of spine.
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#87 - 2014-09-10 19:12:59 UTC
Klyith wrote:


OK in that case you should throw your support behind this proposal:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=372423
so that you can wardec the opposing incursion runners without them being able to dodge.

Oh, I do support this, and my own dodging setup is already in place and compliant with the holder alt setup.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#88 - 2014-09-10 19:15:27 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
James Baboli wrote:
It is much more the fact that the fleet doctrines are designed to resist gank attempts (and thus don't shoot back, as this would deny the target reps without the logi going suspect) and the people doing it are pretty good. There are 3 or 4 attack types, which, timed correctly, can really mess up a fleet, but require fairly good timing, a knowledge of the sites and reasonable coordination of a larger than average group of gankers (25-40 catalysts, 15-20 talos or nado)


Hey, don't incursion runners have good timing, a knowledge of sites, and reasonable coordination? Sounds like you have the perfect population to make this work.


Quote:
It has been tried before. there are other ways to get the logi to the site, like staging out of orcas at safe spots. Not to mention many incursion communities have enough logi ships on hand to replace reasonable losses for an entire incursion, so a well run incursion means a full stock to replace those lost to ganking. Some community SRP funds approach those of middle weight null alliances, and are willing to cover any ships lost to ganking. Once again, things which have been done and which can be done again if needed. A brute force or scattershot approach will work poorly. Again, the weak point of the majority of fleets is the players and their discipline, rather than their ships, as those can be enforced as being fit to a standard.


So gank them on the MOM gate. Is the community going to keep forming up if they're constantly losing Logi and draining their SRP funds while being unable to do the site they're trying to do?

SRP funds are finite, and it takes less ISK to gank a logi than to replace one.


Veers Belvar wrote:
Agree with all these points. Also the solution to any problem in highsec is not "suicide gank them." The game should be flexible enough to accommodate those looking to do PvP as well as those looking to do PvE.


Except that EVE is fundamentally a PvP game.

Nobody said suicide ganking is the only solution to any problem, nor is it the only solution to this problem. It is *a* solution.
If you have a problem with another player's actions and want them to change, it is your job to change their actions by any of the many means at your disposal. That process, whatever form it takes, is called PvP.

(Also, Incursions are very clearly PvP activities.)

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#89 - 2014-09-10 19:15:34 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
James Baboli wrote:

Unless they have an entire fleets worth of players waiting in the wings. Decs won't work, so the killing them will have to be suicide gank, so it would take a massive number of toons to inflict significant damage to an incursion fleet, with a largish number of players pulling triggers in tight coordination.


Its in lowsec, decs are not needed.

Stop trying to make excuses for your lack of spine.

Whats in lowsec? I see highsec in the origional post, and assumed that the discussion was still about highsec. If it is all about lowsec, then goku-fleet actually has a purpose once you remove the scramblers, as they can be dropped directly on the target via a covert cyno.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#90 - 2014-09-10 19:15:37 UTC
Klyith wrote:
James Baboli wrote:

It is much more the fact that the fleet doctrines are designed to resist gank attempts (and thus don't shoot back, as this would deny the target reps without the logi going suspect) and the people doing it are pretty good. There are 3 or 4 attack types, which, timed correctly, can really mess up a fleet, but require fairly good timing, a knowledge of the sites and reasonable coordination of a larger than average group of gankers (25-40 catalysts, 15-20 talos or nado)

RubyPorto wrote:


Have you tried? Didn't think so.

Gank every MOM fleet's logi as they undock, see if they still try to run the site.


It has been tried before. there are other ways to get the logi to the site, like staging out of orcas at safe spots. Not to mention many incursion communities have enough logi ships on hand to replace reasonable losses for an entire incursion, so a well run incursion means a full stock to replace those lost to ganking. Some community SRP funds approach those of middle weight null alliances, and are willing to cover any ships lost to ganking. Once again, things which have been done and which can be done again if needed. A brute force or scattershot approach will work poorly. Again, the weak point of the majority of fleets is the players and their discipline, rather than their ships, as those can be enforced as being fit to a standard.

baltec1 wrote:
Sure it would. You kill them and they cant do it.

Unless they have an entire fleets worth of players waiting in the wings. Decs won't work, so the killing them will have to be suicide gank, so it would take a massive number of toons to inflict significant damage to an incursion fleet, with a largish number of players pulling triggers in tight coordination.


OK in that case you should throw your support behind this proposal:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=372423
so that you can wardec the opposing incursion runners without them being able to dodge.


Or I could support the solution in my OP, which makes the mothership spawn later, and allows for more groups to run more sites for longer. Between a simple fix to solve the problem, and a complicated fix designed to see my carnage and PvP in highsec, I think I'll go with Door #1.
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#91 - 2014-09-10 19:16:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Veers Belvar
delete
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#92 - 2014-09-10 19:17:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Veers Belvar
delete
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#93 - 2014-09-10 19:20:32 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
James Baboli wrote:
It is much more the fact that the fleet doctrines are designed to resist gank attempts (and thus don't shoot back, as this would deny the target reps without the logi going suspect) and the people doing it are pretty good. There are 3 or 4 attack types, which, timed correctly, can really mess up a fleet, but require fairly good timing, a knowledge of the sites and reasonable coordination of a larger than average group of gankers (25-40 catalysts, 15-20 talos or nado)


Hey, don't incursion runners have good timing, a knowledge of sites, and reasonable coordination? Sounds like you have the perfect population to make this work.


Except no one but the boxers is willing to open that particular section of Pandora's Box, and they keep hesitating. If anyone has the resources to do much of the shooting, I'm willing to help with the intel so long as while I am in any way affiliated with such a venture, my community of choice is not on the target list.

Quote:
Quote:
It has been tried before. there are other ways to get the logi to the site, like staging out of orcas at safe spots. Not to mention many incursion communities have enough logi ships on hand to replace reasonable losses for an entire incursion, so a well run incursion means a full stock to replace those lost to ganking. Some community SRP funds approach those of middle weight null alliances, and are willing to cover any ships lost to ganking. Once again, things which have been done and which can be done again if needed. A brute force or scattershot approach will work poorly. Again, the weak point of the majority of fleets is the players and their discipline, rather than their ships, as those can be enforced as being fit to a standard.


So gank them on the MOM gate. Is the community going to keep forming up if they're constantly losing Logi and draining their SRP funds while being unable to do the site they're trying to do?

SRP funds are finite, and it takes less ISK to gank a logi than to replace one.


Again, trying to help people refine the tactics. Kinda bored with tornados warping into sites just as we clear them, or 6 catalysts trying to kill a logi that already has its velocity up.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#94 - 2014-09-10 19:21:48 UTC
James Baboli wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
James Baboli wrote:

Unless they have an entire fleets worth of players waiting in the wings. Decs won't work, so the killing them will have to be suicide gank, so it would take a massive number of toons to inflict significant damage to an incursion fleet, with a largish number of players pulling triggers in tight coordination.


Its in lowsec, decs are not needed.

Stop trying to make excuses for your lack of spine.

Whats in lowsec? I see highsec in the origional post, and assumed that the discussion was still about highsec. If it is all about lowsec, then goku-fleet actually has a purpose once you remove the scramblers, as they can be dropped directly on the target via a covert cyno.


They are bitching about people killing the mothership in lowsec and how they cannot farm the incursions.
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#95 - 2014-09-10 19:24:35 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
James Baboli wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
James Baboli wrote:

Unless they have an entire fleets worth of players waiting in the wings. Decs won't work, so the killing them will have to be suicide gank, so it would take a massive number of toons to inflict significant damage to an incursion fleet, with a largish number of players pulling triggers in tight coordination.


Its in lowsec, decs are not needed.

Stop trying to make excuses for your lack of spine.

Whats in lowsec? I see highsec in the origional post, and assumed that the discussion was still about highsec. If it is all about lowsec, then goku-fleet actually has a purpose once you remove the scramblers, as they can be dropped directly on the target via a covert cyno.


They are bitching about people killing the mothership in lowsec and how they cannot farm the incursions.


No...we were talking about highsec. In lowsec the issue is that no one even wants to run incursions because fielding a 40 man battleship fleet is like sending PL a personal invitation to come and roflstomp you. Fixing lowsec incursions is a whole other cup of tea, and please don't derail this thread into that.
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#96 - 2014-09-10 19:26:10 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
James Baboli wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
James Baboli wrote:

Unless they have an entire fleets worth of players waiting in the wings. Decs won't work, so the killing them will have to be suicide gank, so it would take a massive number of toons to inflict significant damage to an incursion fleet, with a largish number of players pulling triggers in tight coordination.


Its in lowsec, decs are not needed.

Stop trying to make excuses for your lack of spine.

Whats in lowsec? I see highsec in the origional post, and assumed that the discussion was still about highsec. If it is all about lowsec, then goku-fleet actually has a purpose once you remove the scramblers, as they can be dropped directly on the target via a covert cyno.


They are bitching about people killing the mothership in lowsec and how they cannot farm the incursions.

Not how I read it. This is, as I read it, a thread whining about not being able to farm Highsec incursions( as the lowsec incursions are largely run by shadow cartel and shady fleet, both of which are not PVP adverse but have limited NAPs about being allowed to farm the isk and only kill each other in the mom from what I hear), which does make just shooting them a bit harder. Means it takes a bit more work to be effective than "Just shoot all of them".

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#97 - 2014-09-10 19:26:51 UTC
James Baboli wrote:
Except no one but the boxers is willing to open that particular section of Pandora's Box, and they keep hesitating. If anyone has the resources to do much of the shooting, I'm willing to help with the intel so long as while I am in any way affiliated with such a venture, my community of choice is not on the target list.


In other words, you're deciding not to use the tools at your disposal to deal with other player actions. Why should CCP bail you out from the consequences of that decision?

Quote:
Again, trying to help people refine the tactics. Kinda bored with tornados warping into sites just as we clear them, or 6 catalysts trying to kill a logi that already has its velocity up.


Don't wait for other people to fix your problems for you.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#98 - 2014-09-10 19:28:32 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
They are bitching about people killing the mothership in lowsec and how they cannot farm the incursions.


Highsec. They're bitching about being unable to farm in highsec and being unwilling to go to lowsec.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#99 - 2014-09-10 19:29:00 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
James Baboli wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
James Baboli wrote:

Unless they have an entire fleets worth of players waiting in the wings. Decs won't work, so the killing them will have to be suicide gank, so it would take a massive number of toons to inflict significant damage to an incursion fleet, with a largish number of players pulling triggers in tight coordination.


Its in lowsec, decs are not needed.

Stop trying to make excuses for your lack of spine.

Whats in lowsec? I see highsec in the origional post, and assumed that the discussion was still about highsec. If it is all about lowsec, then goku-fleet actually has a purpose once you remove the scramblers, as they can be dropped directly on the target via a covert cyno.


They are bitching about people killing the mothership in lowsec and how they cannot farm the incursions.


No...we were talking about highsec.


So wardec them if you dont want to gank them.
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#100 - 2014-09-10 19:31:08 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
James Baboli wrote:
Except no one but the boxers is willing to open that particular section of Pandora's Box, and they keep hesitating. If anyone has the resources to do much of the shooting, I'm willing to help with the intel so long as while I am in any way affiliated with such a venture, my community of choice is not on the target list.


In other words, you're deciding not to use the tools at your disposal to deal with other player actions. Why should CCP bail you out from the consequences of that decision?

Quote:
Again, trying to help people refine the tactics. Kinda bored with tornados warping into sites just as we clear them, or 6 catalysts trying to kill a logi that already has its velocity up.


Don't wait for other people to fix your problems for you.

I'm not the one whining and starting these threads. I come because the whiny little second raters who keep expecting different results with the same input amuse me, and refining the tactics and info available to joe ganker means it is more likely that they manage to kill one of the opposing fleets for me, while I am reasonably safe because I'm doubling down on things to prevent the same problems I source from killing my fleets.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp