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Remove griefing from highsec, but allow PvP
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baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#41 - 2014-09-10 16:25:07 UTC
NoLife NoFriends StillPosting wrote:
You are correct that there is much greifing in high-sec but CCP is just too stupid and lazy to realize these unfair and broken mechanics are only doing harm to their game.


12 years on, ganking will kill EVE any time now.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#42 - 2014-09-10 18:29:23 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
NoLife NoFriends StillPosting wrote:
You are correct that there is much greifing in high-sec but CCP is just too stupid and lazy to realize these unfair and broken mechanics are only doing harm to their game.


12 years on, ganking will kill EVE any time now.
Indeed, it's still dying to this day.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Kaerakh
Obscure Joke Implied
#43 - 2014-09-10 19:07:59 UTC
Mag's wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
NoLife NoFriends StillPosting wrote:
You are correct that there is much greifing in high-sec but CCP is just too stupid and lazy to realize these unfair and broken mechanics are only doing harm to their game.


12 years on, ganking will kill EVE any time now.
Indeed, it's still dying to this day.

That slow growing death man. So tragic.

Schrodinger's Hot Dropper

The Fate of Forum Alts

Guaranteed Success
Lugh Crow-Slave
#44 - 2014-09-10 19:18:37 UTC
Toriessian wrote:
If theres any change to Wardecs I'd like a mechanic where the AGGRESSOR can set an ISK value that is publicly shown on the dec where if they (the aggressor) lose X amount in ships the war gets invalidated. It seems like a strange mechanic, but I'd like the attackers to have a carrot to offer the defender to actually undock and try to fight. Theres not enough trying to fight in HS.

-From the aggressor perspective this may get you more kills.

-From the defenders perspective this is actually a reason to bother trying. 3 noobs in omens might just move the meter even if they all die.

I'd be happy to see HS AWOXING go. I understand the freedom of the sandbox, but any mechanic that is preventing new players from grouping has gotta go IMO. When reading about war decs, the suggestion for new players is to group up and fight back. Theres a contradiction here, and I think fixing that might get us another percent or two added to the 10% of the players that actually get involved with the game past leveling up their Raven.



HS War decs keep new players from grouping up far more often that's generally the reason i get when new players leave corp to sit and mine or run missions. yet this is still a small number of people

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Toriessian
Helion Production Labs
Independent Operators Consortium
#45 - 2014-09-10 20:08:48 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
HS War decs keep new players from grouping up far more often that's generally the reason i get when new players leave corp to sit and mine or run missions. yet this is still a small number of people


At the end of the day that is exactly what I'm hoping to stop. These new players are scattering at the exact moment they should be forming up and its hurting New Eden.

Does your corp have ships fit at your HQ ready to hand to noobs in the event of a wardec? Is the leadership of your corp capable of forming 3-4 man gangs to try and gank solo war targets? Are fleets scheduled when a dec goes out with instructions on what ship to bring? How about overviews setups? These are the things that aren't happening in new player hi sec corps.

My suggestion gives the attacker a way to give you an incentive to do that and actually fight with a defined "end war" goal for the defender. Right now the system as it is says, "If you defend yourself and win, the attacker may choose to keep you decc'd and no matter how many kills you get, you may never actually get out of the war. Pray your attacker isn't space rich."

Would it be easier for you to rally your noobs into meta-4 rail thoraxes if you know you can "win" the war because the attacker said if you undock fight and kill 200 mil it'll end? Consider that question.





Every day I'm wafflin!
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#46 - 2014-09-10 20:20:55 UTC
Players who stay in highsec tend to quit EVE anyway; there are very few of us who can actually live there for a long time and not be horribly bored out of our skulls.

If highsec is forcing new players to quickly find homes in deep blue null or lowsec somewhere, then that's just fine. Highsec is a truly awful place anyhow and they're not missing out on anything.

Before you ask, hush. I like the well-stocked markets and the lack of god-awful politics.
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#47 - 2014-09-10 21:05:07 UTC
Wardeccs are not griefing. Individual players can just drop corp and avoid the wardecc. The fact that they choose to stay and fight the way makes it by definition not griefing. Wardeccs cannot be used to force an individual player to engage in PvP without CONCORD assistance, and are targeted at the corporation - not the player. If you don't want to make the effort to defend your corporation then it doesn't deserve to exist in the first place.
Toriessian
Helion Production Labs
Independent Operators Consortium
#48 - 2014-09-10 21:05:58 UTC
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
If highsec is forcing new players to quickly find homes in deep blue null or lowsec somewhere, then that's just fine. Highsec is a truly awful place anyhow and they're not missing out on anything.

Before you ask, hush. I like the well-stocked markets and the lack of god-awful politics.


Around 10% are making it that far... thats my issue with leaving things as is. Imagine PVP with that getting to 13% or 14%.. we don't need big changes. Just tweaks in the early game.

Every day I'm wafflin!
Beta Maoye
#49 - 2014-09-10 22:08:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Beta Maoye
Toriessian wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
HS War decs keep new players from grouping up far more often that's generally the reason i get when new players leave corp to sit and mine or run missions. yet this is still a small number of people


At the end of the day that is exactly what I'm hoping to stop. These new players are scattering at the exact moment they should be forming up and its hurting New Eden.



Yes, I want to see more players can group up too. I believe most players like to join together for group activities rather than doing things alone. Easing the path of forming group among new players can help to improve retention rate. Wardec issue has been brought up numerous times, but no consensus can be arrived at viable solution. I think wardec can remain unchanged. Instead I have the following ideas:

-Only corporation can join alliance to claim sov of null space.
-Only corporation can put up player owned structures in null space.
-Only corporation can wardec other corporation or be wardeced.
-A new kind of organisation called club is incorporated into the game.
-A club is a small organization putting players together for doing group activities mainly in high sec.
-A club has its club channel and club mail.
-A club has limited number of membership of 100. It can extend the membership number by upgrading to corporation.
-A club cannot join alliance. It cannot claim sov of null space.
-A club cannot wardec other organizations or be wardeced by others.
-A club cannot put up any structures in null/low/WH space.
-A club's structures in high sec is not protected by Concord. Anyone can launch attack to their structures freely.
-A club can be upgraded to corporation for a registration fee. However, once upgraded, it cannot revert to club.

The general idea is to provide a platform to nurture small organization among players in high sec in a relative placid environment. Player's club can upgarde to corporation to join alliance for the big boy game when they are ready. Wardec can mean what it mean rather than a griefing tool. Wardec fee can be brought down because the fee is no longer required to set so high as a hindrance to griefing. Smaller null/low/wormhole corporations and alliances can wardec their opponents more freely with lower cost.
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#50 - 2014-09-10 22:33:11 UTC
Toriessian wrote:
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
If highsec is forcing new players to quickly find homes in deep blue null or lowsec somewhere, then that's just fine. Highsec is a truly awful place anyhow and they're not missing out on anything.

Before you ask, hush. I like the well-stocked markets and the lack of god-awful politics.


Around 10% are making it that far... thats my issue with leaving things as is. Imagine PVP with that getting to 13% or 14%.. we don't need big changes. Just tweaks in the early game.


Again with Rise's god-awful numbers. Have any of you lot considered that of the 50% quitting EVE early on, most of those may have found that EVE just isn't the game for them?
Lugh Crow-Slave
#51 - 2014-09-10 23:06:46 UTC
Toriessian wrote:


Does your corp have ships fit at your HQ ready to hand to noobs in the event of a wardec? Is the leadership of your corp capable of forming 3-4 man gangs to try and gank solo war targets? Are fleets scheduled when a dec goes out with instructions on what ship to bring? How about overviews setups? These are the things that aren't happening in new player hi sec corps.

My suggestion gives the attacker a way to give you an incentive to do that and actually fight with a defined "end war" goal for the defender. Right now the system as it is says, "If you defend yourself and win, the attacker may choose to keep you decc'd and no matter how many kills you get, you may never actually get out of the war. Pray your attacker isn't space rich."

Would it be easier for you to rally your noobs into meta-4 rail thoraxes if you know you can "win" the war because the attacker said if you undock fight and kill 200 mil it'll end? Consider that question.



Honestly its much easier to just ignore the war dec 90% of the time if you avoid there local trade hub and trade routs you never see them and when you do form up and go after them they will just doc up and wait you out then focus on there other targets

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Lugh Crow-Slave
#52 - 2014-09-10 23:08:55 UTC
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:


Again with Rise's god-awful numbers. Have any of you lot considered that of the 50% quitting EVE early on, most of those may have found that EVE just isn't the game for them?



Exactly so we need to change the game to make it so it appeals at least some what to every one and is an ok game rather then making a great game for those who enjoy it

....

wait

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Azami Nevinyrall
172.0.0.1
#53 - 2014-09-10 23:12:27 UTC
1 - uuummmmmm
2 - no
3 - just...no

...
Fourteen Maken
Karma and Causality
#54 - 2014-09-10 23:17:14 UTC
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
Toriessian wrote:
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
If highsec is forcing new players to quickly find homes in deep blue null or lowsec somewhere, then that's just fine. Highsec is a truly awful place anyhow and they're not missing out on anything.

Before you ask, hush. I like the well-stocked markets and the lack of god-awful politics.


Around 10% are making it that far... thats my issue with leaving things as is. Imagine PVP with that getting to 13% or 14%.. we don't need big changes. Just tweaks in the early game.


Again with Rise's god-awful numbers. Have any of you lot considered that of the 50% quitting EVE early on, most of those may have found that EVE just isn't the game for them?


Eve isn't a game for new players at all, that's the problem. The older the game gets the bigger the gap between new players and established players gets. Even though they might like the concept, and the enormous scope of the game there is such a huge gap in skills and resources between mature toons and new toons it feels insurmountable. I think the least they should expect is to be afforded additional protection from bittervets without being forced to spend most of their time hiding in dead npc corps or afraid to undock. There should be beginners protection where new accounts can choose to participate in war decs or not without having to leave their player corp. When their corp gets war decced new toons should have to actually opt in before they can be shot at for at least 6 months while they train BASIC skills needed for pvp.
Toriessian
Helion Production Labs
Independent Operators Consortium
#55 - 2014-09-11 01:27:32 UTC
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
Again with Rise's god-awful numbers. Have any of you lot considered that of the 50% quitting EVE early on, most of those may have found that EVE just isn't the game for them?


So 50 of the quitters gone... that leaves us with another 50 percent sticking around... and what little changes can we make to keep 3% or 4% more is a bad thing to consider?

Every day I'm wafflin!
Lugh Crow-Slave
#56 - 2014-09-11 01:35:31 UTC
Toriessian wrote:
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
Again with Rise's god-awful numbers. Have any of you lot considered that of the 50% quitting EVE early on, most of those may have found that EVE just isn't the game for them?


So 50 of the quitters gone... that leaves us with another 50 percent sticking around... and what little changes can we make to keep 3% or 4% more is a bad thing to consider?




no considering new ideas is never bad but not all of them should be implemented

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#57 - 2014-09-11 05:28:16 UTC
Toriessian wrote:
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
Again with Rise's god-awful numbers. Have any of you lot considered that of the 50% quitting EVE early on, most of those may have found that EVE just isn't the game for them?


So 50 of the quitters gone... that leaves us with another 50 percent sticking around... and what little changes can we make to keep 3% or 4% more is a bad thing to consider?



Yes.

Alienating your core playerbase for the sake of theoretical casual players is, historically, the death of a game.

UO and SWG being excellent examples.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#58 - 2014-09-11 06:17:15 UTC
Fourteen Maken wrote:

Eve isn't a game for new players at all, that's the problem. The older the game gets the bigger the gap between new players and established players gets. Even though they might like the concept, and the enormous scope of the game there is such a huge gap in skills and resources between mature toons and new toons it feels insurmountable. I think the least they should expect is to be afforded additional protection from bittervets without being forced to spend most of their time hiding in dead npc corps or afraid to undock. There should be beginners protection where new accounts can choose to participate in war decs or not without having to leave their player corp. When their corp gets war decced new toons should have to actually opt in before they can be shot at for at least 6 months while they train BASIC skills needed for pvp.


Really? This again? Clearly you do not understand how skills work. There isn't nearly as much of a "gap" or "divide" between new players and old in terms of skills as people like to think. A newbie can specialize into an area and be just as good at it, training-wise, as even the oldest of old players. Not only can they do this, they can do it in a mere fraction of the time that the old player has spent playing the game.

Is there a gap in wealth? Probably, but if you're really that obsessed with ISK you can sell a few PLEX and be right up there with the other billionaires.

New players don't need to be protected from old players. They need to be protected from the ridiculous stupid ideas they bring with them from themepark MMOs and they need to be protected from the ridiculous stupid notion that those ideas should apply in EVE too.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#59 - 2014-09-11 09:46:57 UTC
The only thing I agree is removal of in Corp high sec awoxing. It is bad for the game becuse make new players have a hard tiem to get into corps, because most corps do not trust new players, fearing awoxing.

And staying in NPC corps is one of the most serious obstacles to make people stay in this game.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#60 - 2014-09-11 09:53:32 UTC
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
Players who stay in highsec tend to quit EVE anyway; there are very few of us who can actually live there for a long time and not be horribly bored out of our skulls.

If highsec is forcing new players to quickly find homes in deep blue null or lowsec somewhere, then that's just fine. Highsec is a truly awful place anyhow and they're not missing out on anything.

Before you ask, hush. I like the well-stocked markets and the lack of god-awful politics.



That is your opinion.. that btw is completely wrong. A lot of peoel left 0.0 and went to high sec exaclty because you have better pvp in high sec than in 0.0.

The most horrible place in eve right now is 0.0. Borign as hell. jUst a stupid farming machine where some farm npcs and others farm the people that farm npcs.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"