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"Just because you can sit in it doesn't mean you should fly it"
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Faylee Freir
Abusing Game Mechanics
R-E-A-V-E-R-S
#1 - 2014-09-08 17:50:38 UTC
So I know I'm not the first nor am I the last to ask this question: How do I know when my skills are proficient enough to fly *ship name here*?

Most of the time when people link or talk about ships, it's in EFT with all skills at 5. Obviously it would be rediculous to wait for that before you flew any ship. Is there a magic number for tank / dps that you're looking for? I could give some specific examples if anyone is interested in advising me on their opinions.

HTFU
Absolutely Not Analt
Carebears on Fire
#2 - 2014-09-08 18:12:14 UTC
There are no magic numbers, and a lot of it will depend on your skill as a player over and above whatever skill your character has. All I can give you are some general rules of thumb.

1. You don't need all level 5s.
2. You don't even need all level 4s
3. You need to be able to understand the role the ship is designed to fill (player skill) and fit the ship to fill that role effectively (character skill).

For example, if you want to fly kiting ships, then you will generally need long range weapons and a decent level of skills with prop mods. If you want to fly close in brawlers, then short range weapons and the ability to hold your opponent in place are critical.

If you want to post some specifics, feel free, but be aware that the question you have asked is VERY subjective, and depends as much on the ship itself as it does anything else.

Eve is a multi player game. And you are the content. - Ralph King-Griffin Being meh at two things is not better than being great at one. - Lugh Crow-Slave
Destination SkillQueue
Doomheim
#3 - 2014-09-08 20:03:42 UTC
I'd agree with what Analt said.

I'd just like to add another example, that might help you get it better. Take your typical new player getting in to a battleship intending to do missions. He thinks it's a good upgrade in tank and spank and wants to jump in it immediately to breeze through lvl 4 missions with ease. Problem being that to make the ship work and perform better a lot of skills can be required, that are not always immediately obvious. A BS is after all a much slower and easier to hit target for the enemy. Its weapons systems will have a harder time to do their full damage to their targets or are totally incapable of killing small targets that get too close without help. If you only have the ship skills and don't understand what you're getting in to, you're likely to perform worse and even lose your shiny new ship. So in order to get things to perform as planned he needs to understand how to fly battleships, how to fit them and then train the skills needed to make that happen. If he doesn't do that, he would have been better off not moving on to BSs yet.
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#4 - 2014-09-08 22:38:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Tau Cabalander
You need:
* To be able to fit a sufficient defence.
* To be able to fit a sufficient offence.
* Enough ISK or spares to recover from losing it.

Example of not quite being ready: You can sit in a battleship, but can only fit T1 tank modules, and can't use large weapons nor drones.

Another example: I can sit in any supercarrier, but I can't use fighter bombers.

For the record, I lost my first battleship a day after I got it. I had the skills, but not the know-how. I lost the ship because I made a silly mistake; the active-tank battleship tanked a lot differently than the passive-tank battlecruiser I had been using. I replaced the battleship immediately (wasn't insured, doh!), and never lost another one that way again. I had to learn about capacitor management (when to cycle my repper), and what enemies to prioritize for the ship I was using.

I've since learned just how far into the ragged edge I can safely push my ships. I often test myself and my ships by pushing even further, and learn more about both even when I lose the ship.

I recommend platinum insurance the first time you undock in a ship that is new to you!
Faylee Freir
Abusing Game Mechanics
R-E-A-V-E-R-S
#5 - 2014-09-09 01:24:27 UTC
Thanks for all the advice so far! I guess I'l be more specific with my situation, which I hope with advice will help me make good decisions with other ships / fits in the future.

http://eveboard.com/pilot/Faylee_Freir
This is with all skills at 5
This is with my current skills

I'm in the middle of training all the pertinent skills to 4 / 5 but am wondering if it's too early to hop in it now. My tank between the two situations isn't something that I would think holds me back. I'm just concerned with my applied DPS and if I would be better off flying something I am closer to the "all skills at 5" benchmark.

You don't need to tell me that if I have to ask I probably shouldn't fly it. I'm going to get blown up and I'm fine with that. Practice makes perfect.

HTFU
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#6 - 2014-09-09 01:37:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Tau Cabalander
Faylee Freir wrote:
http://eveboard.com/pilot/Faylee_Freir

Probably be fine for level 4 missions in a Maelstrom or Tempest. I'd lean to the Maelstrom myself. [I use a Vargur.]
Faylee Freir
Abusing Game Mechanics
R-E-A-V-E-R-S
#7 - 2014-09-09 01:45:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Faylee Freir
Tau Cabalander wrote:
Faylee Freir wrote:
http://eveboard.com/pilot/Faylee_Freir

Probably be fine in a Malestrom.

Thanks? This isn't about my Maelstrom or Gunnery skills though :] Wanting to get in my Sacrilege and pvp.

I was more or less asking if 448 DPS (my skills) vs 645 DPS (skills at 5) is enough of a difference to deter YOU from flying it. My tank is fine IMO. The more I think about what I'm asking as I type, the more I figure it's all situational and of personal preference. I'm sure there would be times where my 448 DPS isn't enough against a target where if I just had one more skill trained up to 5 it would have made a difference.

I just hate feeling like I NEED all skills at 5 in order to be effective.

HTFU
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#8 - 2014-09-09 01:49:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Tau Cabalander
Faylee Freir wrote:
Tau Cabalander wrote:
Faylee Freir wrote:
http://eveboard.com/pilot/Faylee_Freir

Probably be fine in a Malestrom.

Thanks? This isn't about my Maelstrom or Gunnery skills though :] Wanting to get in my Sacrilege and pvp.

You realize that is the first time you mentioned that in this thread Roll

Most rookies ask about battleships in missions, hence my reply.
Faylee Freir
Abusing Game Mechanics
R-E-A-V-E-R-S
#9 - 2014-09-09 01:51:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Faylee Freir
Tau Cabalander wrote:
Faylee Freir wrote:
Tau Cabalander wrote:
Faylee Freir wrote:
http://eveboard.com/pilot/Faylee_Freir

Probably be fine in a Malestrom.

Thanks? This isn't about my Maelstrom or Gunnery skills though :] Wanting to get in my Sacrilege and pvp.

You realize that is the first time you mentioned that in this thread Roll

In text yes, but I posted images of EFT clearly displaying the fit for my Sacrilege. No worries at this point though. Once I finish out my next 2 or so weeks of Missile training I will take it out for a spin. I'm just concerned with my actual DPS compared to my theoretical DPS when plugged into EFT.

Didn't mean to come off ungrateful, sorry. Thank you for your replies.

HTFU
RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
#10 - 2014-09-09 02:00:47 UTC  |  Edited by: RavenPaine
Specifically on the Sac:
It looks like your tank will be about the same, but your DPS is lacking. So obviously, you just need to keep on those skills.
It sounds like you're prepared to lose a ship or two, so that's the main thing. That your expectations are realistic.

If you're in a gang, *average* skills will not be so apparent. But if you're solo.... that's where every edge makes a difference.
And in general, I'd apply that train of thought to about every situation.

I think some ships need to be close to perfect to shine. Logistics ships for instance, kinda suck with skills at IV. Add the fact that other pilots are risking their ships based on your skills, and its almost a no-brainer.
Same goes for a PVE Tengu. It just does much better with V's.
Falcon
Arazu
Vindicator
Scorpion
Carriers and Supers.
To me, these ships all need pretty damn good skilling. Both because of the cost involved, and also because they just SHINE when they are maxed out.
Faylee Freir
Abusing Game Mechanics
R-E-A-V-E-R-S
#11 - 2014-09-09 02:06:13 UTC
RavenPaine wrote:
Specifically on the Sac:
It looks like your tank will be about the same, but your DPS is lacking. So obviously, you just need to keep on those skills.
It sounds like your prepared to lose a ship or two, so that's the main thing. That your expectations are realistic.

If your in a gang, *average* skills will not be so apparent. But if you're solo.... that's where every edge makes a difference.
And in general, I'd apply that train of thought to about every situation.

I think some ships need to be close to perfect to shine. Logistics ships for instance, kinda suck with skills at IV. Add the fact that other pilots are risking their ships based on your skills, and its almost a no-brainer.
Same goes for a PVE Tengu. It just does much better with V's.
Falcon
Arazu
Vindicator
Scorpion
Carriers and Supers.
To me, these ships all need pretty damn good skilling. Both because of the cost involved, and also because they just SHINE when they are maxed out.

You make very good points about support ships, especially if you're in a situation where shinies are relying on you to do your job well. Thank you for the input. The sac will be for hunting WT's, where I'll just have to asses the situation. If my theoretical 448 DPS might not be enough, I'll just have to call in the wolfpack to help!

HTFU
onions2
State War Academy
Caldari State
#12 - 2014-09-09 14:40:07 UTC
Not sure it's completely relevant, however my general principle (with my alt) is to aim for level 3 mastery of a specific ship, before i go and buy it.

“To win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the acme of skill”
Absolutely Not Analt
Carebears on Fire
#13 - 2014-09-09 18:44:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Absolutely Not Analt
I am going to echo what Raven said:

Keep working on the DPS skills especially Warhead Upgrades, as that applies to any missile launcher you use. I would get that to a 4 as soon as reasonably possible.

That aside, you've got decent support skills, and as long as you're ready to lose a ship or two figuring out what you shouldn't do or where you're lacking, I'd say go fir it, just remember the key to winning fights is always (no matter your skills) picking the right targets.
Edit to add, also get the HAC skill up to a 4 as soon as you can, as I beleieve that also affects your DPS on the Sac.

Eve is a multi player game. And you are the content. - Ralph King-Griffin Being meh at two things is not better than being great at one. - Lugh Crow-Slave
Faylee Freir
Abusing Game Mechanics
R-E-A-V-E-R-S
#14 - 2014-09-09 23:56:47 UTC
Absolutely Not Analt wrote:
I am going to echo what Raven said:

Keep working on the DPS skills especially Warhead Upgrades, as that applies to any missile launcher you use. I would get that to a 4 as soon as reasonably possible.

That aside, you've got decent support skills, and as long as you're ready to lose a ship or two figuring out what you shouldn't do or where you're lacking, I'd say go fir it, just remember the key to winning fights is always (no matter your skills) picking the right targets.
Edit to add, also get the HAC skill up to a 4 as soon as you can, as I beleieve that also affects your DPS on the Sac.

Thanks for the tips... Tonight I'll work on a skill plan that optimizes the skills I train. I may share it here to get some feedback.

This is why I'm excited to get in my Sac

This is with my boosting alt that I'm about 6 months away from finishing. I am excited for my 63.15m sig radius (after drugs) on a ship that hits like a truck and tanks like.... well a tank.

HTFU
Faylee Freir
Abusing Game Mechanics
R-E-A-V-E-R-S
#15 - 2014-09-10 04:30:24 UTC
I read a post by Tau where he gives his logic when deciding on his own skill training. I like his methods of prioritizing certain skills and when they should be trained. I know no one probably cares, but I'm going to attempt to put together a plan to get me in something that is near-perfect.

I can justify the time invested in HAC's (the Sac specifically) because it is considered one of the "go-to" ships for general merc work among my alliance. So here we have it:

Quote:

  • Heavy Assault Missiles V
  • Heavy Assault Missile Specialization I
  • Heavy Assault Cruisers I
  • Armor Rigging III
  • Armor Rigging IV
  • Missile Projection I
  • Heavy Assault Cruisers II
  • Heavy Assault Missile Specialization II
  • Missile Projection II
  • Heavy Assault Missile Specialization III
  • Heavy Assault Cruisers III
  • Warhead Upgrades III
  • Missile Projection III
  • Rapid Launch IV
  • Cybernetics V
  • Heavy Assault Cruisers IV
  • Heavy Assault Missile Specialization IV
  • Warhead Upgrades IV
  • Missile Bombardment V
  • Guided Missile Precision IV
  • Target Navigation Prediction IV
  • Gallente Drone Specialization IV
  • Missile Projection IV
  • Heavy Assault Cruisers V
  • Rapid Launch V
  • Heavy Assault Missile Specialization V
  • Warhead Upgrades V
  • Missile Projection V
  • Target Navigation Prediction V

Training Time: 139d, 3h, 41m, 8s (with my high-grades)


The earlier part of this plan may be a little tricky to maintain with the short train times (real life schedule sucks). So where I foresee not being able to make it in time to inject another skill, I will inject Cybernetics V and train until I can get to the computer and get back on the plan.

Let me know if anyone sees any glaring faults in this plan.

HTFU
Luwc
State War Academy
Caldari State
#16 - 2014-09-10 08:22:45 UTC
Skilled enough to not shitfit it.

http://hugelolcdn.com/i/267520.gif
Lady Rift
His Majesty's Privateers
#17 - 2014-09-10 17:19:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Lady Rift
Faylee Freir wrote:
I read a post by Tau where he gives his logic when deciding on his own skill training. I like his methods of prioritizing certain skills and when they should be trained. I know no one probably cares, but I'm going to attempt to put together a plan to get me in something that is near-perfect.

I can justify the time invested in HAC's (the Sac specifically) because it is considered one of the "go-to" ships for general merc work among my alliance. So here we have it:

Quote:

  • Heavy Assault Missiles V
  • Heavy Assault Missile Specialization I
  • Heavy Assault Cruisers I
  • Armor Rigging III
  • Armor Rigging IV
  • Missile Projection I
  • Heavy Assault Cruisers II
  • Heavy Assault Missile Specialization II
  • Missile Projection II
  • Heavy Assault Missile Specialization III
  • Heavy Assault Cruisers III
  • Warhead Upgrades III
  • Missile Projection III
  • Rapid Launch IV
  • Cybernetics V
  • Heavy Assault Cruisers IV
  • Heavy Assault Missile Specialization IV
  • Warhead Upgrades IV
  • Missile Bombardment V
  • Guided Missile Precision IV
  • Target Navigation Prediction IV
  • Gallente Drone Specialization IV
  • Missile Projection IV
  • Heavy Assault Cruisers V
  • Rapid Launch V
  • Heavy Assault Missile Specialization V
  • Warhead Upgrades V
  • Missile Projection V
  • Target Navigation Prediction V

Training Time: 139d, 3h, 41m, 8s (with my high-grades)


The earlier part of this plan may be a little tricky to maintain with the short train times (real life schedule sucks). So where I foresee not being able to make it in time to inject another skill, I will inject Cybernetics V and train until I can get to the computer and get back on the plan.

Let me know if anyone sees any glaring faults in this plan.


things I follow lv4 with ship skills, t2 tank. if worried about dps application try it in a lv2 or in a belt. if not where you want it it train those skills for dps first.


If thats the order that you want to train in i would suggest getting things to lv4 before T2 missiles
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#18 - 2014-09-17 04:08:02 UTC
Faylee Freir wrote:
This is why I'm excited to get in my Sac

This is with my boosting alt that I'm about 6 months away from finishing. I am excited for my 63.15m sig radius (after drugs) on a ship that hits like a truck and tanks like.... well a tank.


You should never ever use a T2 energy neut. The 'unstable' line does the exact same thing for less fitting.

Also, I hear Legions are good :)
Faylee Freir
Abusing Game Mechanics
R-E-A-V-E-R-S
#19 - 2014-09-17 20:42:33 UTC
Paikis wrote:
Faylee Freir wrote:
This is why I'm excited to get in my Sac

This is with my boosting alt that I'm about 6 months away from finishing. I am excited for my 63.15m sig radius (after drugs) on a ship that hits like a truck and tanks like.... well a tank.


You should never ever use a T2 energy neut. The 'unstable' line does the exact same thing for less fitting.

Also, I hear Legions are good :)

Good point. I will swap it out. I can afford to lose a couple sacs for the price I'd pay for a legion. Sorry if the formatting sucks, I'm on my iPhone. Give this a look over: http://evedarklord.blogspot.ca/2014/01/sexy-times-pleasure-sac.html?m=1

HTFU
Xanato Kaso
Frozen Flames
#20 - 2014-09-18 01:19:04 UTC
I would say when you get into a new ship your minimum required skills should be tank. If you can tank whatever you are flying into that is all that matters, if your spank is low it just means it takes you a lot longer to do your thing, but as long as you can properly fit and use the tank the ship requires you wont lose the ship.
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