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Mining and rats

Author
Fer'isam K'ahn
SAS Veterinarians
#21 - 2014-09-12 11:36:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Fer'isam K'ahn
Steppa Musana wrote:
I wouldn't mind seeing harder rats introduced into lower security systems. Perhaps not the incursion AI, but something like in the mining L4s....

You are aware that there are only 3 missions with rats ? And they are drones and incredibly weak (Venture with 2 drones will take care of all). If you experience more and more difficult rats warping in, its due to nature of the lower security where the mission location is at and this happens also at the belts - so .... we already got that - which is the point of this mute debate.

We already got that.

Failed observation does not need a fix through implementing game mechanics that already exist.
Voxinian
#22 - 2014-09-12 11:46:36 UTC
Low sec rats could be spiced up as well (more diverse). Main 'problem 'is high sec rats that are mindnumming easy in any high sec system. I don't even notice a difference between 0.7 and 0.5... it's all just little frigs. There may be an ECM frig that pop up, but even if they jam they will just explode 20 seconds later without any effort or danger.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#23 - 2014-09-12 12:26:48 UTC
If you make the worlds second most boring activity also require a combat escort you're going to do bad things to the mineral prices.

The most boring activity is guarding a mining fleet in a PvP boat. If you think mining is dull, try flying scort. Oh god so dull.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#24 - 2014-09-12 12:59:32 UTC
Voxinian wrote:
Low sec rats could be spiced up as well (more diverse). Main 'problem 'is high sec rats that are mindnumming easy in any high sec system. I don't even notice a difference between 0.7 and 0.5... it's all just little frigs. There may be an ECM frig that pop up, but even if they jam they will just explode 20 seconds later without any effort or danger.


If you want more, go to Low sec or 00 sec. High sec does not need more danger of that kind.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.

Voxinian
#25 - 2014-09-12 13:10:49 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Voxinian wrote:
Low sec rats could be spiced up as well (more diverse). Main 'problem 'is high sec rats that are mindnumming easy in any high sec system. I don't even notice a difference between 0.7 and 0.5... it's all just little frigs. There may be an ECM frig that pop up, but even if they jam they will just explode 20 seconds later without any effort or danger.


If you want more, go to Low sec or 00 sec. High sec does not need more danger of that kind.


More danger? There is no danger up to now... that was my point. That 1.0 and 0.9 has no rats is okay cos new players start out there, but come on, a 0.6 and 0.5 system should at least have some random spawns that are harder then the little frigs that are not even a threat to new accounts with one T1 drone.
Fer'isam K'ahn
SAS Veterinarians
#26 - 2014-09-12 13:27:15 UTC
Voxinian wrote:
More danger? There is no danger up to now... that was my point. That 1.0 and 0.9 has no rats is okay cos new players start out there, but come on, a 0.6 and 0.5 system should at least have some random spawns that are harder then the little frigs that are not even a threat to new accounts with one T1 drone.

The danger was ironic, I believe, it's more about adding extra income vie on-the-side ratting and looting.

And I can show you over a dozen lossreports from new players just last week, if you think everyone can handle them. And there is no gradual population spread, even if there is a mechanic behind the sec systems. 1.0 for new players, then migrate for the next 2 weeks to 0.8, 0.7 after two more weeks, then 0.6 after 6, 0.5 after 8 and so forth... Tha'ts rubbish - there is no such thing. You go where the ore is until you hit PvP, then change your outfit.

My venture can raze cruisers and everything NPCs throw at it in 0.5 - yet my tanked retriever went into hull when jammed in an 0.7 - it all depends on the situation. And yes, my drones did not aggress .. sometimes because they just don't and sometimes because I recall them so they won't kill tasty commanders 40km off and won't re-engage due to being jammed by the time they are under 10km... Yes, I do get the tasty 250 mil faction mod mining mission rat once in a while so I want the wrecks close.

ECM rats can be fragging annoying to semi-afk miners, but the rest are just paint in space in high sec and that's how it should be.

They should either be too strong for miners, good luck making them difficult in an 0.5 for battle skiffs, so they won't infringe on combat ships and their income while boosting mining income beyond yield.Or they should be nothing more then a minor nuisance - which they are now.


Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#27 - 2014-09-12 14:40:45 UTC
if you want more risk while you mine, get out of hi-sec where you'll make more money too.

The real risk of mining is other players anyways, as it should be. Introducing rats that do stuffs will just be as much a tedious bore as missions.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#28 - 2014-09-12 14:41:40 UTC
Voxinian wrote:


More danger? There is no danger up to now... that was my point. That 1.0 and 0.9 has no rats is okay cos new players start out there, but come on, a 0.6 and 0.5 system should at least have some random spawns that are harder then the little frigs that are not even a threat to new accounts with one T1 drone.


Ore sites have such spawns. Dont need them in typical belts.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#29 - 2014-09-12 14:44:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Donnachadh
Fer'isam K'ahn wrote:
[quote=Voxinian]

And I can show you over a dozen lossreports from new players just last week, if you think everyone can handle them.


Thank you for pointing this out. As one that spends most of my game time with new players by choice I hate these types of posts.

_________(fill in the blank) needs to be harder because in my muti-year old toon it is to easy and to boring. Why is it so hard for people to understand that you will get new players mining in .5 systems because they are not yet aware of the differences, or simply because they discover that they can make more mining in these systems.

Based on my time with the new players in the game I think the belt rats in high sec are just about right. Strong enough in .5-.7 systems to give a serious challenge to a new player that goes into a place they should not be. But not so hard that they are at serious risk of losing a ship because of it if they are payng attention to what is happening.

I fully understand the desire for the increase risks, however when we consider what to do with the belt rats in high sec we need to consider what is best for the new players above all other concerns or wants.

If you really want to add some spice and some challenge to your mining buy a Prospect, cloak it up and go mining in low sec, you would probably enjoy the challenges it presents.
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#30 - 2014-09-12 14:50:49 UTC
Donnachadh wrote:
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
Donnachadh wrote:
There are players in this game that have never flown missions and do not want anything to do with any of the combat aspects of the game.


Those players should not undock if they wish to avoid combat. Hitting that "UNDOCK" button means you want to enter a combat zone. It's nobody else's problem if these people either fail or refuse to understand that.

To be perfectly honest though, why are these people playing a game that is built on and based around unfair no-holds-barred PvP if they don't want anything to do with combat?


Excuse for a late answer on this.

First we need to define PvP because there are 2 radically different interpretations.
1. is the traditional 2 or more players go out into space and try to blow each apart. For all of the industrial players I know in the game this is the definition of PvP they use.

2. is an emerging one in the last few years. it maintains that all of EVE is PvP because in some way or another we are all in competition with each other. Miners compete for belts, haulers may compete for contracts, traders trying to beat each other to a sale and the list goes on. While I understand and accept this definition from my point of view there are a lot of players many of them PvP toons that would disagree with it.

If #1 is the definition you use when you claim that EVE is a PvP based game then I disagree with you in the strongest possible terms. And I wonder if this is the definition CCP uses why did they bother wasting the development resources to put all of the other content into EVE? Why did they bother with high sec anyway and why bother with useless things like WD when the entire game could be just one big free for all blast away at each other sandbox.

If #2 is your definition of PvP then I agree with you that Eve is a PvP based game.

To make the rest of this easier for all of us, from here to the end of this post when I refer to PvP I use it based on definition #1 above.

"To be perfectly honest though, why are these people playing a game that is built on and based around unfair no-holds-barred vP if they don't want anything to do with combat?"
That is an excellent question and the answer would be different for everyone so all I can do is give you a composite answer based on 4 years of dealing with players that do not like PvP.

There is no other MMO out there that has the wide range of activities, or the player driven economy that EVE has. It is this wide range of activities and the player driven economy that draws the non-PvP players that I know or have talked to into this game. Despite the suicide ganks, burn Jita's, Ice incursions and all of the other PvP shenanigans that happen in high sec it is this wide range of activities and the player driven economy that keeps them in this game. So I say be thankful for this fact, you would have a whole lot fewer targets if they were not here.


The fact that I can blow your ship and your pod out of the sky anywhere at any time regardless of highsec/lowsec/nullsec/wormsec is a very strong indicator that #1 is extremely true.

Also, there is another sandbox game with a wide range of activities now. It's called ArcheAge and people can kill you anytime they want there, too.
Voxinian
#31 - 2014-09-12 15:14:30 UTC
Donnachadh wrote:
Fer'isam K'ahn wrote:
[quote=Voxinian]

And I can show you over a dozen lossreports from new players just last week, if you think everyone can handle them.


Thank you for pointing this out. As one that spends most of my game time with new players by choice I hate these types of posts.

_________(fill in the blank) needs to be harder because in my muti-year old toon it is to easy and to boring. Why is it so hard for people to understand that you will get new players mining in .5 systems because they are not yet aware of the differences, or simply because they discover that they can make more mining in these systems.

Based on my time with the new players in the game I think the belt rats in high sec are just about right. Strong enough in .5-.7 systems to give a serious challenge to a new player that goes into a place they should not be. But not so hard that they are at serious risk of losing a ship because of it if they are payng attention to what is happening.

I fully understand the desire for the increase risks, however when we consider what to do with the belt rats in high sec we need to consider what is best for the new players above all other concerns or wants.

If you really want to add some spice and some challenge to your mining buy a Prospect, cloak it up and go mining in low sec, you would probably enjoy the challenges it presents.


I regularly mine in a .6 system and see new accounts there in a retriever having 4 mining drones out and one T1 scout drone. So apparently if you have one T1 drone out you can mine with belt rats around with a week old account. If only they would add an occasional spawn that bites a bit more then regular spawns it would make it more intereseting imo. New players know how to warp out so I don't see the problem, just means they have to be more alert. It's not that they are forced to stay at the belt when a more nasty rat pops up.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#32 - 2014-09-12 16:11:59 UTC
Voxinian wrote:


I regularly mine in a .6 system and see new accounts there in a retriever having 4 mining drones out and one T1 scout drone. So apparently if you have one T1 drone out you can mine with belt rats around with a week old account. If only they would add an occasional spawn that bites a bit more then regular spawns it would make it more intereseting imo. New players know how to warp out so I don't see the problem, just means they have to be more alert. It's not that they are forced to stay at the belt when a more nasty rat pops up.


it takes just under 9 days to get into a barge and have a single combat drone. That barge out the box with no skills cannot passive tank all 0.6 belt rat spawns and id make a guess that the T1 drone couldnt quickly deal with them all before being shot down either.

all your doing is thinking of your own boredom, where as there is no good reason to raise the entry level of industry and make it at all difficult for a new player to mine in 0.6. There is plenty of danger from other players and new players lose out on enough rocks from other mining competition with better set-ups.

if u want excitement in your mining life, get out of hi-sec or at least do some ore sites where the spawns you seek already exist.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#33 - 2014-09-13 01:21:31 UTC
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:

Also, there is another sandbox game with a wide range of activities now. It's called ArcheAge and people can kill you anytime they want there, too.


Thank you for the information, I stand corrected on this point.

So amend my post that it is the wide range of activities in a space oriented game that keeps them here.
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