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How Long Until Drones are Finally Nerfed
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Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#121 - 2014-09-07 14:29:05 UTC
Medalyn Isis wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Medalyn Isis wrote:
I'm not calling for a nerf per say, but more that drones should be bought into line with the other primary weapon systems. I don't mind drones being buffed, but I think drone bonuses should be restricted to the specific class of ship.
So you think it should be pretty much the way it is.

Drone bonuses aren't currently restricted to any specific class of drone. The only ship line where this applies somewhat is to the Gurista ships due to the bandwidth restrictions. If a vexor/Ishtar/VNI bonuses applied to medium drones, then I'd be fine with buffing drones slightly more.


When I was new and had a 0-23 KB, I knew everything about PVP too.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#122 - 2014-09-07 14:49:09 UTC
OP reminds me of Violet Elizabeth Bott tbh

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

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Martin Corwin
Doomheim
#123 - 2014-09-07 19:34:43 UTC
Medalyn Isis wrote:
Martin Corwin wrote:
Medalyn Isis wrote:
Edit - Also drone dps is now at a level, where a vexor is out dps ing a blaster fit thorax with 2x mag stab and void ammo which should be the pinnacle of dps for a t1 cruiser class ship. The evidence that drones are imbalanced is all there if people care to look.

With 2 DDA IIs and Ogre IIs a Vexor is not even close to a Thorax. We are talking about a 100 dps difference here. Or I'm just to stupid.

It is the later. Don't worry yourself about it until you know how to fit a ship properly. Lets just say vexor can easily get over 700 going onto 800 dps with 1600mm plate and hardener, whilst a thorax is topping out at 700 and below if you still want to fit any tank at all. This is with all T2 mods, no officer/implants/boosters or anything like that.

Or maybe you don't know the difference between a Vexor and a VNI? So basically you comparing apples and oranges. Nice try.
Medalyn Isis
Doomheim
#124 - 2014-09-07 19:40:50 UTC
Martin Corwin wrote:
Medalyn Isis wrote:
Martin Corwin wrote:
Medalyn Isis wrote:
Edit - Also drone dps is now at a level, where a vexor is out dps ing a blaster fit thorax with 2x mag stab and void ammo which should be the pinnacle of dps for a t1 cruiser class ship. The evidence that drones are imbalanced is all there if people care to look.

With 2 DDA IIs and Ogre IIs a Vexor is not even close to a Thorax. We are talking about a 100 dps difference here. Or I'm just to stupid.

It is the later. Don't worry yourself about it until you know how to fit a ship properly. Lets just say vexor can easily get over 700 going onto 800 dps with 1600mm plate and hardener, whilst a thorax is topping out at 700 and below if you still want to fit any tank at all. This is with all T2 mods, no officer/implants/boosters or anything like that.

Or maybe you don't know the difference between a Vexor and a VNI? So basically you comparing apples and oranges. Nice try.

Nope, I'm talking about a standard T1 Vexor. It is quite simple to get it over 700dps. If you can't manage to attain that level then post your fit and i'll give you some advice and let you know where you are going wrong.
Gavin Dax
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#125 - 2014-09-07 20:00:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Gavin Dax
Jon Joringer wrote:
I think one of the big problems with drone boats right now is that they simply do too much dps. If your main weapons system is drones and you do so much dps with them that you don't care at all about not fitting supplemental guns and can go for all out neuts/RR/etc, then they are simply doing too much. And if you do decide to supplement your drones with guns (on hulls like the Vexor, NVexor, etc.) you get ludicrous potential dps. Drone damage should be low enough that hulls need to supplement the damage with their highslots in order to have good dps or if they don't, have decent dps at best, especially since they can field bonused damage of different classes (lights/mediums/heavies).


This. The problem with drones is that the trade offs are out of balance. It's pretty obvious.

Ishtar vs. Munin after fitting their primary alpha/range weapon -> http://i.imgur.com/7UBGVQ0.png

Note the DPS difference (and that's with Bouncers not Gardes, which give 50 more base DPS). Note the amount of fitting still available for each ship (CPU/PG). Note the number of free high slots available on both ships after fitting their primary damage system. On top of this, keep in mind that the bouncer damage projection at range is also much better than the artillery. The arty tracks twice as well as the bouncers, but you need to be *way* closer to use the artillery so their effective tracking is actually worse.

And rough comparison of vexor vs. thorax DPS for those that were curious (keep in mind vexor can apply more DPS at range than the thorax can up-close):
http://i.imgur.com/5L0MyY1.png

EDIT: And yes, you can destroy the vexor's drones. You can also cap out the thorax and turn off its guns. You can use medium drones instead of heavies/sentries on the vexor and have a huge ability to replace your drones when they die... and *still* do more DPS than the thorax and at >50km (compared to <5km)... thorax is more limited to therm/kin, needs to trade off DPS to fit EC/utility drones when the vexor doesn't, thorax can't reasonably fit something other than guns in high slots without a huge DPS hit... and not to mention the Vexor has higher EHP so when you do get in range you have more HP to kill with your less DPS...
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#126 - 2014-09-07 21:05:45 UTC
Creamdream wrote:
Medalyn Isis wrote:
So we have all been saying drones are OP except for the few that just trained to fly an Ishtar. The alliance tournament seems to confirm this. So, how long until the new dawn for the turret. The drone meta is getting boring now, and I am looking forward to it being shaken up. So how long do we have to wait?



WTF?? Drone damage was already effectively nerfed by 2-4% introducing new skill affections which hardloy anyone will get to to IV or V.

This only applies to T2 sentry drones, and two of those had base damage buffs. Every other drone in the game (aside from Geckos and fighter-bombers) had their damage buffed for all levels of Drone Interfacing below level 5.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Michael Ruckert
Hohere Kavallerie-Kommando
#127 - 2014-09-07 23:56:41 UTC
AngelFood wrote:
Drones are totally lame in game, my max skill drones can't even kill one frig without dying .. and as for drone enthusiasts now getting to use 2 whole drones at once .. woo.. **** off.
The over thought balances are all wrong most of the new changes to this once great game lack entirely logic and sense and subtlety. So sad


Dunno why I bother these forums are just full of try hard propaganda now you rely on what the players say too much, they are controlling and ruining the game. Bring some old devs back who have balls.

The evidence is building that ccp have been infiltrated.


Man, just say no to drugs.

"No matter how well you perform there's always somebody of intelligent opinion who thinks it's lousy." - Laurence Olivier
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#128 - 2014-09-08 01:00:53 UTC  |  Edited by: IIshira
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Every other drone in the game (aside from Geckos and fighter-bombers) had their damage buffed for all levels of Drone Interfacing below level 5.


And for those that trained Drone Interfacing to 5?... Damage nerfed, same or buffed?

I know CCP nerfed the skill from 20 percent to 10 percent per level so this made some newer pilots very happy. Most of us that have been around more than six months and use drones as a major part of their DPS have trained it to 5 (or should have)
marin marinere
Malakim Zealots
Angel Cartel
#129 - 2014-09-08 01:17:31 UTC
Personally I love drones, Lol

To be fair the empire's should have a fair amount of experience working with such forms of automation before they obtained clones or could fly about with those spaceships of ours. I suppose when they messed up and accidentally invented sentient drones it prevented further research and stopped anyone from inventing drones that could actually do anything on their own apart from salvage and pursue.

And this then prevented eve from becoming either a distopic future where drones ruled the cluster or a utopian one where anything is available to anyone for free.

Wait, actually we do have those other two servers.. Twisted
Pytria Le'Danness
Placid Reborn
#130 - 2014-09-08 11:20:23 UTC
Paper is OP, needs nerf. Leave scissors as it is.

-Rock
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#131 - 2014-09-08 11:24:54 UTC
Medalyn Isis wrote:
So we have all been saying drones are OP except for the few that just trained to fly an Ishtar.


I will not stand for being misrepresented like this.

You, Madame, are a liar.

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#132 - 2014-09-08 11:27:44 UTC
Medalyn Isis wrote:
Martin Corwin wrote:
Medalyn Isis wrote:
Martin Corwin wrote:
Medalyn Isis wrote:
Edit - Also drone dps is now at a level, where a vexor is out dps ing a blaster fit thorax with 2x mag stab and void ammo which should be the pinnacle of dps for a t1 cruiser class ship. The evidence that drones are imbalanced is all there if people care to look.

With 2 DDA IIs and Ogre IIs a Vexor is not even close to a Thorax. We are talking about a 100 dps difference here. Or I'm just to stupid.

It is the later. Don't worry yourself about it until you know how to fit a ship properly. Lets just say vexor can easily get over 700 going onto 800 dps with 1600mm plate and hardener, whilst a thorax is topping out at 700 and below if you still want to fit any tank at all. This is with all T2 mods, no officer/implants/boosters or anything like that.

Or maybe you don't know the difference between a Vexor and a VNI? So basically you comparing apples and oranges. Nice try.

Nope, I'm talking about a standard T1 Vexor. It is quite simple to get it over 700dps. If you can't manage to attain that level then post your fit and i'll give you some advice and let you know where you are going wrong.


You lecturing people on how to fit a ship properly is like....


Idk


James Van Der Beek lecturing on how to get a good TV role.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Eugene Kerner
TunDraGon
Goonswarm Federation
#133 - 2014-09-08 11:36:25 UTC
Gavin Dax wrote:
Jon Joringer wrote:
I think one of the big problems with drone boats right now is that they simply do too much dps. If your main weapons system is drones and you do so much dps with them that you don't care at all about not fitting supplemental guns and can go for all out neuts/RR/etc, then they are simply doing too much. And if you do decide to supplement your drones with guns (on hulls like the Vexor, NVexor, etc.) you get ludicrous potential dps. Drone damage should be low enough that hulls need to supplement the damage with their highslots in order to have good dps or if they don't, have decent dps at best, especially since they can field bonused damage of different classes (lights/mediums/heavies).


This. The problem with drones is that the trade offs are out of balance. It's pretty obvious.

Ishtar vs. Munin after fitting their primary alpha/range weapon -> http://i.imgur.com/7UBGVQ0.png

Note the DPS difference (and that's with Bouncers not Gardes, which give 50 more base DPS). Note the amount of fitting still available for each ship (CPU/PG). Note the number of free high slots available on both ships after fitting their primary damage system. On top of this, keep in mind that the bouncer damage projection at range is also much better than the artillery. The arty tracks twice as well as the bouncers, but you need to be *way* closer to use the artillery so their effective tracking is actually worse.

And rough comparison of vexor vs. thorax DPS for those that were curious (keep in mind vexor can apply more DPS at range than the thorax can up-close):
http://i.imgur.com/5L0MyY1.png

EDIT: And yes, you can destroy the vexor's drones. You can also cap out the thorax and turn off its guns. You can use medium drones instead of heavies/sentries on the vexor and have a huge ability to replace your drones when they die... and *still* do more DPS than the thorax and at >50km (compared to <5km)... thorax is more limited to therm/kin, needs to trade off DPS to fit EC/utility drones when the vexor doesn't, thorax can't reasonably fit something other than guns in high slots without a huge DPS hit... and not to mention the Vexor has higher EHP so when you do get in range you have more HP to kill with your less DPS...

^

The fits are equally terrible.

TunDraGon is recruiting! "Also, your boobs [:o] "   CCP Eterne, 2012 "When in doubt...make a diȼk joke." Robin Williams - RIP
Mizhir
Devara Biotech
#134 - 2014-09-08 11:53:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Mizhir
Gavin Dax wrote:
Jon Joringer wrote:
I think one of the big problems with drone boats right now is that they simply do too much dps. If your main weapons system is drones and you do so much dps with them that you don't care at all about not fitting supplemental guns and can go for all out neuts/RR/etc, then they are simply doing too much. And if you do decide to supplement your drones with guns (on hulls like the Vexor, NVexor, etc.) you get ludicrous potential dps. Drone damage should be low enough that hulls need to supplement the damage with their highslots in order to have good dps or if they don't, have decent dps at best, especially since they can field bonused damage of different classes (lights/mediums/heavies).


This. The problem with drones is that the trade offs are out of balance. It's pretty obvious.

Ishtar vs. Munin after fitting their primary alpha/range weapon -> http://i.imgur.com/7UBGVQ0.png

Note the DPS difference (and that's with Bouncers not Gardes, which give 50 more base DPS). Note the amount of fitting still available for each ship (CPU/PG). Note the number of free high slots available on both ships after fitting their primary damage system. On top of this, keep in mind that the bouncer damage projection at range is also much better than the artillery. The arty tracks twice as well as the bouncers, but you need to be *way* closer to use the artillery so their effective tracking is actually worse.

And rough comparison of vexor vs. thorax DPS for those that were curious (keep in mind vexor can apply more DPS at range than the thorax can up-close):
http://i.imgur.com/5L0MyY1.png

EDIT: And yes, you can destroy the vexor's drones. You can also cap out the thorax and turn off its guns. You can use medium drones instead of heavies/sentries on the vexor and have a huge ability to replace your drones when they die... and *still* do more DPS than the thorax and at >50km (compared to <5km)... thorax is more limited to therm/kin, needs to trade off DPS to fit EC/utility drones when the vexor doesn't, thorax can't reasonably fit something other than guns in high slots without a huge DPS hit... and not to mention the Vexor has higher EHP so when you do get in range you have more HP to kill with your less DPS...


Arties has **** dps and the muninn is kinda lackluster. How does it compare to a rail eagle? Meanwhile the ishtar is still too strong and sentries are strong as well. So just because they perform too well when combined doesn't mean that the entire drone lineup is OP.

And what the **** were you thinking with those vexor and thorax fits? I too can make absurd useless fits to prove my point but the thing is noone will ever fly a thorax or vexor with 5 damagemods in lows and small blasters in high. You completely skip the thorax's bonus while still take advantage of the vexor's bonus when you fit them with small blasters. It's like fitting small blasters on a battleship and then complaining that it gets outdamaged by a destroyer which got bonus for the guns.

Likewise there are no realistic vexor/thoraxfit with 5 damagemods. There are some gimicki vexor fits with 4 damage mods but they are squishy and doesn't apply damage that well. They will still outdamage a 3 magstab shield thorax, but that thorax will apply the damage much better and is faster as well.

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Grog Aftermath
Doomheim
#135 - 2014-09-08 12:13:34 UTC
Medalyn Isis wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Medalyn Isis wrote:
Mr Omniblivion wrote:
I think you mean "Sentry Drones"

Nope, the whole drone system needs a rebalance. The fact that no one was using smart bombs in the tournament shows that the natural counter to drones isn't working.


AT is a poor thing to judge balance on. It is indeed just the sentries that a causing issues.

Drones where better when they where a secondary weapon system imo. The reason I suggest an overall rebalance is to reduce the affect of the lame tactics which come with drones.

One idea is to fix the drone size to a specific class of ship. For instance a BS should only be able to equip / get bonuses to heavy drones. Turrets have that restriction, drones don't have it only because they weren't intended as a primary weapon system. Stuff like that needs ironing out.



Drones are a Gallente primary weapon, hybrids are their secondary. Drones are secondary to the other races.


Missiles are/were (arguably) the primary Caldari weapons probably why hybrids used to be a bit on the weak side.


The current changes to ships making missles and drones a bit more useful for other races, might have been a counter for hybrids getting a buff. Plus to make things potentially a bit more interesting.
Lister Vindaloo
5 Tons of Flax
#136 - 2014-09-08 12:13:48 UTC
OP needs to try harder, if possible?

Terrible fits, terrible idea, terrible opinion, I feel sorry for the server that just hold the data you have provided.

Drones are fine, did you see how many AT ships fitted turrets, turrets are the problem, every time a smart bomb did go off the turrets were completely unharmed, nerf turrets, make them destryable
Ninteen Seventy-Nine
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#137 - 2014-09-08 12:42:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Ninteen Seventy-Nine
Lister Vindaloo wrote:
OP needs to try harder, if possible?

Terrible fits, terrible idea, terrible opinion, I feel sorry for the server that just hold the data you have provided.

Drones are fine, did you see how many AT ships fitted turrets, turrets are the problem, every time a smart bomb did go off the turrets were completely unharmed, nerf turrets, make them destryable


Yes, I too want destructable turrets!

But they also aren't impacted by ecm unless you activate mods on each one individually.
And if I get a lock in time, when I'm damped or jammed they continue to fire at you.
And if you destroy my turrets, I get to deploy more.
And my turrets don't take up any of my high slots anymore so I can fit other stuff.
And I can assign my turrets to my friend to control in case I'm getting permajammed/damped or just want to focus on other piloting actions.

durrrrr

"The unending paradox is that we do learn through pain."
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#138 - 2014-09-08 13:27:28 UTC
Ninteen Seventy-Nine wrote:

And if you destroy my turrets, I get to deploy more.


May I introduce you to Mobile Depot
Medalyn Isis
Doomheim
#139 - 2014-09-08 15:24:48 UTC
Medalyn Isis wrote:
Martin Corwin wrote:
Medalyn Isis wrote:
Martin Corwin wrote:
Medalyn Isis wrote:
Edit - Also drone dps is now at a level, where a vexor is out dps ing a blaster fit thorax with 2x mag stab and void ammo which should be the pinnacle of dps for a t1 cruiser class ship. The evidence that drones are imbalanced is all there if people care to look.

With 2 DDA IIs and Ogre IIs a Vexor is not even close to a Thorax. We are talking about a 100 dps difference here. Or I'm just to stupid.

It is the later. Don't worry yourself about it until you know how to fit a ship properly. Lets just say vexor can easily get over 700 going onto 800 dps with 1600mm plate and hardener, whilst a thorax is topping out at 700 and below if you still want to fit any tank at all. This is with all T2 mods, no officer/implants/boosters or anything like that.

Or maybe you don't know the difference between a Vexor and a VNI? So basically you comparing apples and oranges. Nice try.

Nope, I'm talking about a standard T1 Vexor. It is quite simple to get it over 700dps. If you can't manage to attain that level then post your fit and i'll give you some advice and let you know where you are going wrong.

again, post your fitting, and ill show you how to easily get over 700dps. This is with 1600mm plate and resist also btw. Which is a lot greater tank than that which a thorax can fit

no offence, but it seems a lot of posters like to troll but cant actually fit the ships effectively themselves. Post some numbers and fits and then we can have a proper discussion.
Mizhir
Devara Biotech
#140 - 2014-09-08 16:11:02 UTC
Medalyn Isis wrote:

again, post your fitting, and ill show you how to easily get over 700dps. This is with 1600mm plate and resist also btw. Which is a lot greater tank than that which a thorax can fit

no offence, but it seems a lot of posters like to troll but cant actually fit the ships effectively themselves. Post some numbers and fits and then we can have a proper discussion.


A rupture also does more damage than a stabber. Clearly the rupture is OP. The Thorax is an attack cruiser thus sacrifices dps and tank for speed. But in the end the dps difference isn't really that much (fits below):

Vexor does 673 with everthing heated while the thorax does 604. A difference on 69 dps or roughly 10%.

Now lets take a look at EHP: Vexor 43.5k and thorax 35.8k. Difference on slightly less than 8k.

Cearly the vexor is superior when only looking on those two parameters. But lets look at other stats.

Vexor has a sig on 145m while thorax got 120m. So the thorax takes less damage from medium and large weaponry. You could downgrade the ion to electron and make it dualprop which allows it to sigtank even better.

Vexor goes 1326m/s and the thorax 1666m/s. Thats 340m/s faster.

Vexor got a tracking of 0.135rad/s with void and the thorax got 0.17 with Ion blaster and 0.186 with Electron. Ogres got 0.54 tracking but since they have a sig resolution on 400 rather than 125 their effective tracking would be lower (0.168 if "scaled" down to 125m).

While the vexors drones can project damage furthere away from the ship the ogres still only got 1500m/s (remember that the thorax goes 1666). While the ogres got better acceleration the thorax will win over longer distance (it can heat too). The only time where the drone projection is clear superior to the thorax is when you are getting kited, but at that point the higher speed of the thorax makes it easier to slingshot and unless you can land scram on your target you can't really kill them.

The thorax is also an excellent rail ship.

So both have their pros and cons. I have flown both ships and like them both as they do their job well.

[Vexor, Armour standard]

Damage Control II
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Drone Damage Amplifier II

Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I

Heavy Electron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Electron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Electron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Electron Blaster II, Void M

Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I


Ogre II x2
Hammerhead II x2
Hobgoblin II x1



[Thorax, Armour]

Damage Control II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II

Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I

Heavy Ion Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Electron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Electron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Electron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Electron Blaster II, Void M

Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Ancillary Current Router I


Hammerhead II x5

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