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Logistics Proposal: Signature
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Antillie Sa'Kan
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#61 - 2014-09-08 22:20:40 UTC
Man the flak cannons?
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#62 - 2014-09-08 22:40:53 UTC
Simple fact here is that logi are making our fleets untouchable to smaller ones and that most days our enemy have no other option than to stand down.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#63 - 2014-09-08 22:45:04 UTC
Sigras wrote:
Again, the answer is more, better AOE. It's the only thing that hurts blobs more than it helps them, and it simultaneously ruins a logi pilot's day.

Right now AOE comes in 2 flavors:

1. The regular bomb launched from a stealth bomber
2. The pipe bomb a la rooks and kings.

Both of those are great but there is a problem with them... They feel completely binary. Either you wipe out an entire fleet with only 1 or 2 losses, or they're worse than useless and you should have brought something else.

Is there no room for a middle of the road AOE weapon that does moderate damage? Not so devastating as the bomb but also not as difficult to use? perhaps a new T2 missile which does AOE damage or something of that effect? thoughts?


What you are looking for is called a pipe bomb.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#64 - 2014-09-08 22:51:02 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Simple fact here is that logi are making our fleets untouchable to smaller ones and that most days our enemy have no other option than to stand down.


Beside appeasing the EVE gods wanting more destruction and being able to tell a bunch of winers to STFU because null is that much more active, is there anything changing if logi get nerfed? Your fleet being untouchable or not does not change much on a strategical level, you will still win the important fights VS smaller entity but the guy manning the SRP will get to do more payout. Is it all so people can think highly of themself "at least we got some kills" while they still lose objectives?

Wasn't there a war something like 2 years back where NC. was winning the ISK war by using what could be argued as a more advanced doctrine but still ended up losing on a strategic point and being told winning the ISK was was irrelevant since they still lost their space?
Sigras
Conglomo
#65 - 2014-09-08 22:52:44 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Sigras wrote:
Again, the answer is more, better AOE. It's the only thing that hurts blobs more than it helps them, and it simultaneously ruins a logi pilot's day.

Right now AOE comes in 2 flavors:

1. The regular bomb launched from a stealth bomber
2. The pipe bomb a la rooks and kings.

Both of those are great but there is a problem with them... They feel completely binary. Either you wipe out an entire fleet with only 1 or 2 losses, or they're worse than useless and you should have brought something else.

Is there no room for a middle of the road AOE weapon that does moderate damage? Not so devastating as the bomb but also not as difficult to use? perhaps a new T2 missile which does AOE damage or something of that effect? thoughts?

What you are looking for is called a pipe bomb.

The pipe bomb is more binary than regular bombing runs! Im not sure you really understood the point of the post...
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#66 - 2014-09-08 23:08:35 UTC
I like having a slower cycle for larger-sized reps. I already think that cruiser logistics should be relegated to using the medium-sized modules (with no significant increase in output to compensate for the loss), and there should be a new class of battleship logistics to use the large modules. But I am not opposed to having signature radius impact logistics application.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#67 - 2014-09-09 00:15:43 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Simple fact here is that logi are making our fleets untouchable to smaller ones and that most days our enemy have no other option than to stand down.



They have options, but not when it comes with consequence.

The problem is that there is zero chance of winning. With or without logi, you present a problem that has no practical solution. You offer at best a trade of a few meaningless ships for their entire fleet.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#68 - 2014-09-09 02:00:15 UTC
Mike Voidstar wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Simple fact here is that logi are making our fleets untouchable to smaller ones and that most days our enemy have no other option than to stand down.



They have options, but not when it comes with consequence.

The problem is that there is zero chance of winning. With or without logi, you present a problem that has no practical solution. You offer at best a trade of a few meaningless ships for their entire fleet.



Think about this. Right now you are defending a system that gives smaller fleets and fleets with fewer logi zero chance of doing anything to us. They cannot even kill a few of us.

What a logi nerf would deliver is the ability to cause damage even if you lose the grid. It would open up new tactics and make high dps ships viable for fleet work. We would return to how things were back in 2010 and before. Back then smaller fleets would often dunk larger ones because RR was much less effective.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#69 - 2014-09-09 02:02:25 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Simple fact here is that logi are making our fleets untouchable to smaller ones and that most days our enemy have no other option than to stand down.


Beside appeasing the EVE gods wanting more destruction and being able to tell a bunch of winers to STFU because null is that much more active, is there anything changing if logi get nerfed? Your fleet being untouchable or not does not change much on a strategical level, you will still win the important fights VS smaller entity but the guy manning the SRP will get to do more payout. Is it all so people can think highly of themself "at least we got some kills" while they still lose objectives?

Wasn't there a war something like 2 years back where NC. was winning the ISK war by using what could be argued as a more advanced doctrine but still ended up losing on a strategic point and being told winning the ISK was was irrelevant since they still lost their space?


No there wasnt.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#70 - 2014-09-09 02:12:07 UTC
Sigras wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Sigras wrote:
Again, the answer is more, better AOE. It's the only thing that hurts blobs more than it helps them, and it simultaneously ruins a logi pilot's day.

Right now AOE comes in 2 flavors:

1. The regular bomb launched from a stealth bomber
2. The pipe bomb a la rooks and kings.

Both of those are great but there is a problem with them... They feel completely binary. Either you wipe out an entire fleet with only 1 or 2 losses, or they're worse than useless and you should have brought something else.

Is there no room for a middle of the road AOE weapon that does moderate damage? Not so devastating as the bomb but also not as difficult to use? perhaps a new T2 missile which does AOE damage or something of that effect? thoughts?

What you are looking for is called a pipe bomb.

The pipe bomb is more binary than regular bombing runs! Im not sure you really understood the point of the post...


Oh I understand it. I also remember AOE doomsdays and it was not fun.
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#71 - 2014-09-09 03:28:31 UTC
baltec1 wrote:

Think about this. Right now you are defending a system that gives smaller fleets and fleets with fewer logi zero chance of doing anything to us. They cannot even kill a few of us.

What a logi nerf would deliver is the ability to cause damage even if you lose the grid. It would open up new tactics and make high dps ships viable for fleet work. We would return to how things were back in 2010 and before. Back then smaller fleets would often dunk larger ones because RR was much less effective.



I am not defending the system. Logi isn't the whole system. I believe the problem lies elsewhere, and that the large scale battles and the smaller sub cap battles exist currently in an incompatible state. What works with one won't work with the other. You might just as well say that the buffer of capital ships is far too strong. They are not effectively capable of being alpha'ed off the field and are far too durable against even the most extreme sub cap fleet.

Has Logi received some massive buff in the last 4 years that I have failed to understand? The only thing I can remember off the top of my head was a nerf to hull resist bonuses, which would have had a negative impact to logi when applied to those hulls. Is it the effect of the reactive hardener? For the scale you are talking about the introduction of T1 Logistics has not had this effect.

The idea that people won't engage you because of Logi is simply the lowest bar of the idea that people that can't win won't engage you at all. You are at a point where you are awash in capital ships. You can lose them in numbers that dwarf the fleets that can be fielded against you and not even blink. Logi isn't the problem, it just makes the problem a little worse.

Removing Logi entirely from just you, and leaving it in the hands of your enemies would still not impact you 'meaningfully' for months, if not years.

The meaningful part is the problem. While yes, being able to impact you 'at all' would be a nice first step, the root of the problem is that you are too big to impact in any 'meaningful' manner. CFC effectively won EVE. They have freed themselves from the constraints of consequence.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#72 - 2014-09-09 04:16:45 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Mike Voidstar wrote:



I am not defending the system. Logi isn't the whole system. I believe the problem lies elsewhere,


It is logi and logi alone that keeps our ships from exploding.
Mike Voidstar wrote:

Has Logi received some massive buff in the last 4 years that I have failed to understand?
There has been several key changes.

The first is the introduction of rigs. The second is much larger populations that allows logi to hit a critical mass in fleets and the third is a much bigger population of high SP players.

Mike Voidstar wrote:

Removing Logi entirely from just you, and leaving it in the hands of your enemies would still not impact you 'meaningfully' for months, if not years.


We would be crushed in a matter of weeks.
Sigras
Conglomo
#73 - 2014-09-28 00:58:06 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
It is logi and logi alone that keeps our ships from exploding.

This is wrong and you know it... You could make the argument that it's the lack of AOE Doomsdays that keep your ships from exploding. You could also say that the lack of enough coordinated alpha strike damage is what keeps your ships from exploding.

There are several reasons that your ships dont explode, and logistics ships are definitely on that list but to say they alone are the reason is idiotic
baltec1 wrote:
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Has Logi received some massive buff in the last 4 years that I have failed to understand?
There has been several key changes.

The first is the introduction of rigs. The second is much larger populations that allows logi to hit a critical mass in fleets and the third is a much bigger population of high SP players.

Rigs were introduced more than 4 years ago... IIRC they came in late 2006 early 2007. Also larger fleets hurts logi as much as it helps them... actually probably more.

Logistics ships and RR in general are a good mechanic that rewards communication and teamwork...

If you want to nerf logi, add things to make their job more difficult: more AOE effects, DOT effects, broadcast scramblers etc.

The best, most well organized, well practiced groups will still do fine and the mindless blobs will die in a fire as it should be.
Cartheron Crust
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#74 - 2014-09-28 03:00:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Cartheron Crust
Have scan res scale negatively with numbers of ships in close proximity to it. Lol Would probably kill the server though having to work that out every time someone locks a target. P