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Logistics Proposal: Signature
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Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#41 - 2014-09-08 18:51:03 UTC
That only reinforces that the problems inherent in the large blob fleet need a different kind of solution.

If you are able to alpha every enemy off the field regardless of the presence of logi, then logi isn't the problem.

The issue is that any positive change to individual pilots benefits you more, and any negative change hurts you less, because of your numbers. You can super capitalize on any advantage, and compensate many times over for any disadvantage. That's just the nature of large numbers. It's why we have complex bodies rather than remained as single cell organisms.

The counters for your kind of blob either have not been found, or are impractical to apply via game mechanics.... much as the fall of BOB was those many years ago. They weren't beaten in the game, they were beaten by the game. Which was probably fair, as they had been beating everyone else with the game.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#42 - 2014-09-08 19:23:42 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Mike Voidstar wrote:
That only reinforces that the problems inherent in the large blob fleet need a different kind of solution.

If you are able to alpha every enemy off the field regardless of the presence of logi, then logi isn't the problem.

The issue is that any positive change to individual pilots benefits you more, and any negative change hurts you less, because of your numbers. You can super capitalize on any advantage, and compensate many times over for any disadvantage. That's just the nature of large numbers. It's why we have complex bodies rather than remained as single cell organisms.

The counters for your kind of blob either have not been found, or are impractical to apply via game mechanics.... much as the fall of BOB was those many years ago. They weren't beaten in the game, they were beaten by the game. Which was probably fair, as they had been beating everyone else with the game.


There are no subcap counters to a boot fleet. And yes, the logi are the thing that makes our fleets impossible to kill due to the simple fact thqt they repair faster than the enemy can lay down damage. Its why every fleet goes for alpha over DPS. How is this so hard for people to grasp?
Antillie Sa'Kan
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#43 - 2014-09-08 20:02:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Antillie Sa'Kan
Frostys Virpio wrote:
derp

Please stop trying to disagree with baltec1. He is right and you are wrong. Logi is so broken at the capital level its not even funny. The same goes for you Mike Voidstar.

Also, the one time I tried to join Goonswarm the recruiter asked me for 500 million ISK up front and I got the feeling that his offer was not entirely genuine. This makes batltec1's sig seem a bit disingenuous to me. ;)
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#44 - 2014-09-08 20:24:15 UTC
If it's broken only at the capital level, then a fix needs to be at that level, not every level from noob frigates on up.

I'm not saying he is wrong. I am saying that logi is a symptom of a larger problem. In one sentence he claims it's the one thing keeping them invulnerable, and in the next he claims that without it he would only take completely negligible losses.

Capitals have been problematic since they were introduced. They are completely different from sub cap warfare, and fixes at that level are not universally appropriate at sub cap levels.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#45 - 2014-09-08 20:26:55 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Mike Voidstar wrote:

Any reduction in logi performance will help you more than it will a smaller group.


This is a myth. We already wipe out smaller groups with near no risk to ourselves because the logi we have means they cannot hurt us. Take away that logi and we will still be alphaing their ships away but the key difference is that they can destroy us in turn.


So they will destroy a wopping 6 bill woth of carriers at the cost of a billion in battleship and when both side handle the SRP request, one side will laugh while the other count how often they can welp that hard before the coffers are empty... The line grunt will still be happy until the directors pulls of a CVA and cut SRP payment.
Antillie Sa'Kan
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#46 - 2014-09-08 20:28:25 UTC
Logi is broken at all levels. Its just much more apparent at the capital level due to the larger numbers involved in capital ship stats and the "big" capital logi boats being totally immune to ewar. Guardians and such are just as bad, it just isn't as obvious at first.
Antillie Sa'Kan
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#47 - 2014-09-08 20:31:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Antillie Sa'Kan
Frostys Virpio wrote:
So they will destroy a wopping 6 bill woth of carriers at the cost of a billion in battleship and when both side handle the SRP request, one side will laugh while the other count how often they can welp that hard before the coffers are empty... The line grunt will still be happy until the directors pulls of a CVA and cut SRP payment.

I think you have your cost numbers a bit off there.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#48 - 2014-09-08 20:47:23 UTC
Antillie Sa'Kan wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
derp

Please stop trying to disagree with baltec1. He is right and you are wrong. Logi is so broken at the capital level its not even funny. The same goes for you Mike Voidstar.



Fix cap rep if they are so broken but there is no need to kick people who use other logi boat in the face because entity like the CFC can bring a critical mass of player which happen to break some systems. No matter what the new rule will be, their number will allow them to wipe the floor with their lower size enemy anyway. They will lose 4 carrier in the process? Boo ******* hoo. What's the point when the smaller guys is still bleeding his SRP faster than the coalition is?

Any fleet you form up, they can form up equal or bigger + the associated support wings to make their life easier and yours harder.

As long as they can count their own losses as irrelevant, taking losses or not amount to the same thing to them. You can only bore them to death.

Baltec1 says it himself, they plan on using the same kind of fleet which mean you need to bring around the same thing or more or you will always lose your strategic objectives. How often do those fleet will need to get their teethes kicked in before they give up? How many more time do you go in a right with a heavyweight knocking you out every time just because "Hey, I landed 2 punch!!!". Unless you somehow appreciate getting wrecked, at some point you will stop, landing punch or not.
Antillie Sa'Kan
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#49 - 2014-09-08 21:01:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Antillie Sa'Kan
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Any fleet you form up, they can form up equal or bigger + the associated support wings to make their life easier and yours harder.

You seem to be under the impression that this problem is limited to capital logi. As it currently stands logi does not make the life of the smaller guy harder. It makes it impossible.

If there is a hostile 12 man gang roaming around provi with say 3 logi in it then me and say 4 friends cannot engage or harass it. They will kill us and we will inflict zero damage. Now if we could go out guns blazing and take say 2 or 3 of them with us things would be different. We could wear them down. But as it stands they are invincible unless we can break their reps. This causes lack of pew pew for everyone. This is a bad thing.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#50 - 2014-09-08 21:04:35 UTC
Antillie Sa'Kan wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
So they will destroy a wopping 6 bill woth of carriers at the cost of a billion in battleship and when both side handle the SRP request, one side will laugh while the other count how often they can welp that hard before the coffers are empty... The line grunt will still be happy until the directors pulls of a CVA and cut SRP payment.

I think you have your cost numbers a bit off there.


Put better number in there and then compare random alliance income to theirs and see who's SRP is hit the most. And in case they actually get hit more, remember that they have the number to wreck you anyway so they can downship to something with less of a price premium and still wipe the floor with your fleet while bringing the isk ratio much closer to even. If you bring cruiser to kill some of their carrier, you might score big on the first time with a really good ratio but the next fleet, they might be in BS anyway and now, your ratio is no longer "good enough" to really be winning the ISK war. In the mean time, they still keep the strategic objectives on their side because they can still alpha you off the field. They don't need carriers to win, they can win with the same ship you use. That is what playing the number game enabled for them and all I can do is tip my hat to them for forseeing the fact that even if their enemy might have been higher SP back then which granted them access to better ship, this lead cannot be kept because you absolutely can't keep going higher past a certain point.

They outnumber their enemy, they are at the same relative tech level and the only "terrain advantage" you could play require larrge number so you might be able to overload a node thus causing them logistical trouble to join the fight and that is not intended to be usable at all, it's only a hardware limitation and there isn't really anything preventing them from doing the same.
Antillie Sa'Kan
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#51 - 2014-09-08 21:07:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Antillie Sa'Kan
Frostys Virpio wrote:
If you bring cruiser to kill some of their carrier...

I stopped reading right here. Are we even playing the same game?
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#52 - 2014-09-08 21:10:15 UTC
Logi is doing exactly as it is supposed to be doing.

Under the capitol level it has a few well known counters, simply using alpha to explode ships before reps can be effective and using disruption on the logi being foremost.

Personally I enjoy local tanks, and I don't do a lot of PvP and could not care less about it's balance. Remove Logi if you want--- it won't affect me, nor will it fix the problem removing it is supposed to assist with.
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#53 - 2014-09-08 21:18:14 UTC
Antillie Sa'Kan wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
If you bring cruiser to kill some of their carrier...

I stopped reading right here. Are we even playing the same game?



While unrealistic, the point stands. Unless you are somehow able to zerg carriers in newbie frigates the ISK war is ridiculously in favor of he who hath more.
Antillie Sa'Kan
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#54 - 2014-09-08 21:18:45 UTC
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Logi is doing exactly as it is supposed to be doing.

Under the capitol level it has a few well known counters, simply using alpha to explode ships before reps can be effective and using disruption on the logi being foremost.

The problem is that this does not create fun fights. You either counter/overcome their logi and win with no losses or you don't and get wiped out with no kills. Fun pew pew exists between these two extremes.

Mike Voidstar wrote:
Personally I enjoy local tanks, and I don't do a lot of PvP and could not care less about it's balance. Remove Logi if you want--- it won't affect me, nor will it fix the problem removing it is supposed to assist with.

So you are qualified to comment of PVP balance issues how?

I am not proposing or advocating the removal of logi, it just needs to be re balanced so that it does not create the "we can't break them so no point in undocking" situation that we have now.
Antillie Sa'Kan
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#55 - 2014-09-08 21:22:52 UTC
Mike Voidstar wrote:
While unrealistic, the point stands. Unless you are somehow able to zerg carriers in newbie frigates the ISK war is ridiculously in favor of he who hath more.

The existence of Goonswarm and Brave Newbies Inc quite nicely demonstrates that the concept of an "ISK war" is a fallacy of those who chase kill board stats. Numbers do certainly provide an advantage though, and there is nothing wrong with that.

Any point made about PVP from someone who thinks cruisers can kill carriers is not point at all tbh.
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#56 - 2014-09-08 21:30:12 UTC
You mistake the core of EVE. Its not PvP. It's that actions have real consequence. PvP is an expression of that.

With that at it's core, it is inevitable that PvP comes down to Profit and Loss.

The fun PvP you are talking about exists in many games, those that have pure PvP rulesets that do not penalize loss in any real way.
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#57 - 2014-09-08 21:34:03 UTC
Antillie Sa'Kan wrote:
Mike Voidstar wrote:
While unrealistic, the point stands. Unless you are somehow able to zerg carriers in newbie frigates the ISK war is ridiculously in favor of he who hath more.

The existence of Goonswarm and Brave Newbies Inc quite nicely demonstrates that the concept of an "ISK war" is a fallacy of those who chase kill board stats. Numbers do certainly provide an advantage though, and there is nothing wrong with that.

Any point made about PVP from someone who thinks cruisers can kill carriers is not point at all tbh.


That's the sandbox. There are those that are willing to pay the price to create the experience they want.

People that don't care about profit or loss in their wars are unhindered by the impact of logistics. You simply find a better fight somewhere else. Without Profit and Loss almost all of the motivation for conflict in EVE is gone, consequences are gone, and you are now playing a weird version of Battlefield in spaceships.
Antillie Sa'Kan
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#58 - 2014-09-08 21:37:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Antillie Sa'Kan
Mike Voidstar wrote:
You mistake the core of EVE. Its not PvP. It's that actions have real consequence. PvP is an expression of that.

With that at it's core, it is inevitable that PvP comes down to Profit and Loss.

So because choices have consequences I need to care about my kill to loss ISK ratio? I am not seeing the connection here.

I would say that PVP is the framework through which that core is expressed and that the two cannot be reasonably separated. PVP comes down to fun. Profit and Loss have nothing to do with it. CODE is a perfect example here.

As long as you have a profit source to pay for your PVP (permit sales, mission grinding, alliance SRP fed by moon goo, ect...) how "well" you loose that ISK in PVP is measured only by how much fun you had doing it.
Antillie Sa'Kan
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#59 - 2014-09-08 22:04:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Antillie Sa'Kan
Mike Voidstar wrote:
That's the sandbox. There are those that are willing to pay the price to create the experience they want.

People that don't care about profit or loss in their wars are unhindered by the impact of logistics. You simply find a better fight somewhere else. Without Profit and Loss almost all of the motivation for conflict in EVE is gone, consequences are gone, and you are now playing a weird version of Battlefield in spaceships.

Not really. If profit and loss was so needed for PVP and content in general then we wouldn't have CODE or mission ninjas. Also the prevalence of logistics prevents you from getting a better fight somewhere else. With logi as it currently is the outcome of PVP is a binary decision, you either win with no losses or you loose with no kills. Neither of these outcomes is all that fun.

This removes any incentive to fight far more effectively than any risk of loss or lack of chance at profit. Please see example A, the big blue doughnut in null.

I agree that loss is needed to help make loosing a fight meaningful, but its not flat out required. Profit doesn't even enter into it as PVP is not a profitable activity most of the time. If sov wars were actually fun null would be full of massive fights all the time regardless of whether or not there was something to gain by winning the war.
Sigras
Conglomo
#60 - 2014-09-08 22:17:40 UTC
Again, the answer is more, better AOE. It's the only thing that hurts blobs more than it helps them, and it simultaneously ruins a logi pilot's day.

Right now AOE comes in 2 flavors:

1. The regular bomb launched from a stealth bomber
2. The pipe bomb a la rooks and kings.

Both of those are great but there is a problem with them... They feel completely binary. Either you wipe out an entire fleet with only 1 or 2 losses, or they're worse than useless and you should have brought something else.

Is there no room for a middle of the road AOE weapon that does moderate damage? Not so devastating as the bomb but also not as difficult to use? perhaps a new T2 missile which does AOE damage or something of that effect? thoughts?