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Crius state of play

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CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
#1 - 2014-09-01 15:48:44 UTC
Hi everyone,

How are the Crius industry changes working out for you?

This thread is for general feedback on the state of play, how the balance is settling down, and specific issues people still have. This is an experiment in follow-up feedback; please play nicely Smile

Things I fixed internally last week:
- All faction starbase modules should now correctly not require T1 materials as part of their build requirements, and should return the correct materials when reprocessed
- 100mm Reinforced Steel Plates II has had its materials corrected
- Siphons should now have the correct build requirements (10% reduction compared to pre-Crius at ME10%)
- The Panther now correctly requires 3x Capital Jump Drive components
- Small Ancillary Current Router II now only requires one of each T2 salvage component
(Plus some text bugs that aren't that interesting)

I've seen reports of outposts not giving the correct cost reductions but it *seems* to be working on my test server; it's possible I've misunderstood the reports though? More info here would be good!

-Greyscale
Fonac
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#2 - 2014-09-01 15:54:25 UTC
Very well thank you. I like it so far. I have two things i wonder about.

1. When you get the cost of a tech 2 bpc, id like to see what the total cost would be, if i produced all the materials myself. right now it only shows the total cost, if you buy all the components.

2. Depending on how you click on a blueprint to "view in industry" you get different results. Some without research taken itn account, and some with.
2.a. Why not make me able to artificially set the reasearched lvl? - Example, if i know that i'll have a perfect blueprint by the end of the weekend, id like to see what that generates.
Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#3 - 2014-09-01 16:20:44 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:

I've seen reports of outposts not giving the correct cost reductions but it *seems* to be working on my test server; it's possible I've misunderstood the reports though? More info here would be good!

-Greyscale

We are not receiving the cost reduction to install fees in amarr outposts (ME bonuses seem to be working). When this was reported, we were told that feature was axed. When it was pointed out that it was explicitly included in the final dev blog, there was some hemming and hawing and then "we'll work on it".

So is this actually going to be implemented?

Also, we badly need a better breakdown in-game of what's contributing to install costs.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#4 - 2014-09-01 16:24:28 UTC
Crius has been amazing, so far. The Industry UI is so much faster to use when installing multiple jobs; it's like a breath of fresh air.

I have some minor requests, of course:

* Can the maximum size of courier contracts be increased? Right now, you can only put a maximum of 980,000 m^3 of goods into one courier contract, while freighters are all easily capable of 1m+ m^3.
* Here's one that is gonna require some significant UI work -- pagination on teams and blueprints in the industry UI is sorely needed. There are a LOT of teams currently active on TQ, and attempting to load the teams page is pretty rough on my computer, and surely others. People with truly insane numbers of blueprints are experiencing the same problem. Putting in some pagination would help that a lot.

Regarding the outpost bugs, here's the issue: The dev blog Eve Industry: All You Want To Know mentions in Appendix 2 that outposts are supposed to receive a cost reduction for jobs simply by the dint of their existence. These reductions are clearly not in play, however. The confusion was that we received mixed reports as to whether the cost reduction as detailed in that dev blog was actually meant to exist. If the cost reductions are not supposed to exist, then that's all well and good. However, if they are supposed to exist, then they are definitely not applying on TQ.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Aryth
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2014-09-01 16:28:04 UTC
Retar Aveymone wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:

I've seen reports of outposts not giving the correct cost reductions but it *seems* to be working on my test server; it's possible I've misunderstood the reports though? More info here would be good!

-Greyscale

We are not receiving the cost reduction to install fees in amarr outposts (ME bonuses seem to be working). When this was reported, we were told that feature was axed. When it was pointed out that it was explicitly included in the final dev blog, there was some hemming and hawing and then "we'll work on it".

So is this actually going to be implemented?

Also, we badly need a better breakdown in-game of what's contributing to install costs.


Thirding this. We still don't have an official statement since the last one saying it would be discussed.

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.
Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#6 - 2014-09-01 16:29:52 UTC
I think that compressing ore in stations needs to be looked at. We're a month in, and compressed ore is still not available in any real volume at reasonable prices.

Also, about the outpost pricing bug, here is the 'intended behavior' thing: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4888288#post4888288

Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#7 - 2014-09-01 16:32:13 UTC
Retar Aveymone wrote:
I think that compressing ore in stations needs to be looked at. We're a month in, and compressed ore is still not available in any real volume at reasonable prices.

Also, about the outpost pricing bug, here is the 'intended behavior' thing: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4888288#post4888288


Agreed -- station compression would be a huge shot in the arm for the sorry state of acquiring compressed minerals today.

Might I also suggest a UI hint in the Reprocessing dialog, pointing players towards compression if the price of the minerals they are receiving is significantly less than what the compressed ore value?

This all seems like overkill, but keep in mind -- changing the way mining works like this is fighting against 11 years of learned behavior. You cannot underestimate how strongly it is ingrained in the minds of the playerbase that reprocessing your ore is how you do business. Drastic measures are needed to decouple reprocessing from mining.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#8 - 2014-09-01 16:34:13 UTC
However, to not be a negative nancy: the patch has been a huge success and people are bidding on teams routinely (though with the sniping problem), highseccers have dared to even grab some teams I wanted, local industry has gotten a shot in the arm in 0.0 and we've noticed that we're now selling significant amounts of T2 stuff in null instead of shipping to jita.

It's been a big success and all of the issues are more 'sand this rough edge a bit' instead of 'god this sucks'.
Aryth
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2014-09-01 16:36:44 UTC
Retar Aveymone wrote:
However, to not be a negative nancy: the patch has been a huge success and people are bidding on teams routinely (though with the sniping problem), highseccers have dared to even grab some teams I wanted, local industry has gotten a shot in the arm in 0.0 and we've noticed that we're now selling significant amounts of T2 stuff in null instead of shipping to jita.

It's been a big success and all of the issues are more 'sand this rough edge a bit' instead of 'god this sucks'.


Yeah, sniping is going to need attention. You are making teams inherently timezone locked when the bidding is ending.

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.
Thomas Hurt
Future Ventures
#10 - 2014-09-01 16:57:14 UTC
Good patch, my only complaint is that it failed to add in a race of Cat-People with customizeable ears/tails/fur patterns/etc.
Ari Ashimon
Perkone
Caldari State
#11 - 2014-09-01 17:08:09 UTC
From what I can tell, Minmatar outpost factory upgrades that previously gave slot upgrades are still not giving ME reductions as per the original design.

Also reiterating what Retar and others posted about Amarr stations not getting the job cost reductions as planned.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#12 - 2014-09-01 17:09:02 UTC
Aryth wrote:
Retar Aveymone wrote:
However, to not be a negative nancy: the patch has been a huge success and people are bidding on teams routinely (though with the sniping problem), highseccers have dared to even grab some teams I wanted, local industry has gotten a shot in the arm in 0.0 and we've noticed that we're now selling significant amounts of T2 stuff in null instead of shipping to jita.

It's been a big success and all of the issues are more 'sand this rough edge a bit' instead of 'god this sucks'.


Yeah, sniping is going to need attention. You are making teams inherently timezone locked when the bidding is ending.

It's always good to know that whatever the current price for the other days it is up, the price of a team is really determined in the last 2 seconds of it's auction.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Drago Shouna
Doomheim
#13 - 2014-09-01 17:10:27 UTC
Querns wrote:
Retar Aveymone wrote:
I think that compressing ore in stations needs to be looked at. We're a month in, and compressed ore is still not available in any real volume at reasonable prices.

Also, about the outpost pricing bug, here is the 'intended behavior' thing: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4888288#post4888288


Agreed -- station compression would be a huge shot in the arm for the sorry state of acquiring compressed minerals today.

Might I also suggest a UI hint in the Reprocessing dialog, pointing players towards compression if the price of the minerals they are receiving is significantly less than what the compressed ore value?

This all seems like overkill, but keep in mind -- changing the way mining works like this is fighting against 11 years of learned behavior. You cannot underestimate how strongly it is ingrained in the minds of the playerbase that reprocessing your ore is how you do business. Drastic measures are needed to decouple reprocessing from mining.


Sorry guys I disagree. Yes something needs doing (maybe). As a mainly one man corp I just cannot justify the cost of buying then running even a small POS for the small increase in mining income, and i'm sure that i'm by far from being the only one thinking the same.

Maybe if players in a system could share a POS without being in the same corp it would help, or at least be able to allow players to use a compression array by invite or something. Heck even corps in the same alliance can't use each others POS facilities atm.

Yes i'd sell some compressed, but it just isn't worth it as it stands. But I'm still not sure station facilities are the way forward to compress.

Solecist Project...." They refuse to play by the rules and laws of the game and use it as excuse ..." " They don't care about how you play as long as they get to play how they want."

Welcome to EVE.
Sydious
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#14 - 2014-09-01 17:12:29 UTC
I would love it if the industry window would remember my hangar selections between jobs, instead of constantly having to reselect corp hangars.

Despite adding it to arkonor, mexallon is still in short supply in null. I can't import any ore that has it in very high volumes.

Teams sniping is very much an issue. Unless I'm going to be online when the bidding ends I don't even bother anymore. This should be reworked to a system where i can place a max amount i want to pay and let the system auto-bid for me until that's exceeded.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#15 - 2014-09-01 17:19:37 UTC
Drago Shouna wrote:
Querns wrote:

Agreed -- station compression would be a huge shot in the arm for the sorry state of acquiring compressed minerals today.

Might I also suggest a UI hint in the Reprocessing dialog, pointing players towards compression if the price of the minerals they are receiving is significantly less than what the compressed ore value?

This all seems like overkill, but keep in mind -- changing the way mining works like this is fighting against 11 years of learned behavior. You cannot underestimate how strongly it is ingrained in the minds of the playerbase that reprocessing your ore is how you do business. Drastic measures are needed to decouple reprocessing from mining.


Sorry guys I disagree. Yes something needs doing (maybe). As a mainly one man corp I just cannot justify the cost of buying then running even a small POS for the small increase in mining income, and i'm sure that i'm by far from being the only one thinking the same.

Maybe if players in a system could share a POS without being in the same corp it would help, or at least be able to allow players to use a compression array by invite or something. Heck even corps in the same alliance can't use each others POS facilities atm.

Yes i'd sell some compressed, but it just isn't worth it as it stands. But I'm still not sure station facilities are the way forward to compress.

That is the whole point -- adding station compression would make it so you can compress your ore without requiring a POS. I agree that the POS is both a significant barrier to entry and fiddly to make work with disparate groups of people.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Drago Shouna
Doomheim
#16 - 2014-09-01 17:34:51 UTC
Querns wrote:
Drago Shouna wrote:
Querns wrote:

Agreed -- station compression would be a huge shot in the arm for the sorry state of acquiring compressed minerals today.

Might I also suggest a UI hint in the Reprocessing dialog, pointing players towards compression if the price of the minerals they are receiving is significantly less than what the compressed ore value?

This all seems like overkill, but keep in mind -- changing the way mining works like this is fighting against 11 years of learned behavior. You cannot underestimate how strongly it is ingrained in the minds of the playerbase that reprocessing your ore is how you do business. Drastic measures are needed to decouple reprocessing from mining.


Sorry guys I disagree. Yes something needs doing (maybe). As a mainly one man corp I just cannot justify the cost of buying then running even a small POS for the small increase in mining income, and i'm sure that i'm by far from being the only one thinking the same.

Maybe if players in a system could share a POS without being in the same corp it would help, or at least be able to allow players to use a compression array by invite or something. Heck even corps in the same alliance can't use each others POS facilities atm.

Yes i'd sell some compressed, but it just isn't worth it as it stands. But I'm still not sure station facilities are the way forward to compress.

That is the whole point -- adding station compression would make it so you can compress your ore without requiring a POS. I agree that the POS is both a significant barrier to entry and fiddly to make work with disparate groups of people.


I don't know what the answer is, but I do feel that if anyone could compress ore in any station it would quickly become worthless. Yes you'd get your minerals, but it would soon become pointless as selling raw ore or minerals would still be more viable due to the competition.

Solecist Project...." They refuse to play by the rules and laws of the game and use it as excuse ..." " They don't care about how you play as long as they get to play how they want."

Welcome to EVE.
Owen Levanth
Sagittarius Unlimited Exploration
#17 - 2014-09-01 17:59:49 UTC
So far, the changes have been amazing! Especially the changes to T2-ship assembly arrays, since I finally went through with upgradin my old small POS to a medium one, just so I can finally build T2-ships in my own little space yard. The new UI reduced the necessary clickfest by enough, I can finally play my industry-alt without getting an aching wrist after a few busy hours.

The new costs overall have been much lower then I expected, but then again, maybe I overdid my contingency planning. Big smile

The only little thing left is the invention changes. I'm eagerly awaiting them, since invention is kind of important if you want to invent your own BPCs.
Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#18 - 2014-09-01 18:10:11 UTC
The invention job cost should not include the cost of the interfaces (as those are not used up).
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#19 - 2014-09-01 18:13:21 UTC
Drago Shouna wrote:
I don't know what the answer is, but I do feel that if anyone could compress ore in any station it would quickly become worthless. Yes you'd get your minerals, but it would soon become pointless as selling raw ore or minerals would still be more viable due to the competition.

It'd be worth at least 10-20% more than the minerals are worth, just because nullsec can afford to pay that much more for it.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
#20 - 2014-09-01 18:27:15 UTC
Hi everyone,

I'm going to read this properly tomorrow, but in the meantime I'm just dropping in to suggest that if you want to have a longer discussion about particular things, it'd be super helpful if you created a spin-off thread and link it from here, mainly because it makes it much easier for me to follow separate conversations when they're not interleaved :) What's all here is great, I'm just wary of coming back in the morning and finding ten pages about compression ;)

Thanks!
-Greyscale
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