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Tracking & Fitting Larger ships

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Harlen Pike
Pike's Privateers
#1 - 2014-08-31 14:59:31 UTC
So I read a lot about getting under the guns of big ships, and I understand how tracking works, (Small turrets fast, big turrets slow) but if you mounted small turrets on a battleship, would they track as quickly as a frigate?

In short, is it turret size alone, or hull size (or both) which determines tracking speed.
ISD Tipene
ISD STAR
ISD Alliance
#2 - 2014-08-31 15:18:08 UTC
Tracking speed is an attribute on the turret you are using, so yes fitting smaller guns onto larger ships would allow you to hit smaller targets easier. When comparing guns you will be able to see it's tracking speed attribute. The higher this is, the quicker a gun can turn and the easier it will track targets.

However damage bonuses on ships are tied to the size of guns used so battleships gain bonuses to large guns. If they don't have large guns fitted they lose out on the bonuses and something that does (like a destroyer) would actually out damage a battleship in this situation. If you find yourself struggling to deal with smaller ships, this is usually where drones or friends in smaller ships come in.
Cara Forelli
State War Academy
Caldari State
#3 - 2014-08-31 15:53:20 UTC
As your question has already been answered quite well I'll just link this video which does a fantastic job of explaining turret damage and tracking.

Want to talk? Join my channel in game: House Forelli

Titan's Lament
Harlen Pike
Pike's Privateers
#4 - 2014-08-31 15:56:38 UTC
Thanks Guys!
Lilliana Stelles
#5 - 2014-08-31 15:58:13 UTC
There are a handful of ships it's feasible to mis-size the guns on, (light missile caracal for example).

Not a forum alt. 
J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#6 - 2014-09-01 06:36:55 UTC
Harlen Pike wrote:
So I read a lot about getting under the guns of big ships, and I understand how tracking works, (Small turrets fast, big turrets slow) but if you mounted small turrets on a battleship, would they track as quickly as a frigate?

In short, is it turret size alone, or hull size (or both) which determines tracking speed.


Unless one of the hulls include a tracking bonus to guns (and not a size restricted bonus), then small guns will have the same tracking on a frigate as they have on a battleship.

However, mis-size fitting isn't a typical thing you should do and if you do it, expect to be mocked when you lose the ship.
There is a small amount of mis-sized fits that do work, but if you doubt, stick to the correct size.

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Help channel: Help chat - Reloaded

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Marc Durant
#7 - 2014-09-01 07:16:40 UTC
Overall chance to hit is affected by 3 variables;

- actual degrees per second the turret has in relation to the target's angular velocity
- signature resolution (size) of the turret in relation to the target's sig radius (also size)
- range beyond optimal


So big guns have trouble with orbiting targets because their tracking is too slow but also, if applicable, because it's a BIG gun versus a smaller target. So technically you could downsize your guns and expect to hit those smaller orbiting targets better because you adapt both variables.


However;

- if you use a turret based ship your will get a damage bonus that's limited by size, so a BS will get a damage bonus to BS weapons. NOT making use of that bonus by downsizing is just silly in 99.99% of the cases
- your ship will have drones to take care of the smaller close range crap, while your guns will be used to hit the bigger main targets


The only situations where downsized turrets make sense is if you're pvping while you KNOW you'll only meet small targets, are specifically fit against them and you want to think outside the box to surprise them (this is NOT something you should normally consider, at all). Drone ships, they generally don't get a turret bonus and even if they do you're just better off to focus on drones/sentries than to waste slots, fitting and effort on extra turrets. There you could add smaller turrets to deal with small orbiting crap while your sentries kill the rest, so you're completely reversing the normal strategy.




TL;DR. JUST DON'T, unless you REALLY know what you're doing (and if you do you still won't... much)

Yes, yes I am. Thanks for noticing.
Melkan Krow
Uuurs
#8 - 2014-09-01 12:35:15 UTC
Although it must be noted that you'll lock on frigates much more slower on a battleship compared to a (say) cruiser, so that's not ideal. I'm still fairly new to the game, but on PvE I like to keep a small caliber turret mounted to deal with the annoying frigate tackling my Naga (which is mounting large guns). The fact that said Naga has no drone bay to host a contingent of light drones makes the tactic more sensible also.
Ka'Narlist
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#9 - 2014-09-01 12:39:14 UTC
Lilliana Stelles wrote:
There are a handful of ships it's feasible to mis-size the guns on, (light missile caracal for example).

Caracals get their bonus to light and heavy missiles, so light missiles are not mis-sized on a caracal
Velicitia
XS Tech
#10 - 2014-09-01 12:52:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Velicitia
Melkan Krow wrote:
Although it must be noted that you'll lock on frigates much more slower on a battleship compared to a (say) cruiser, so that's not ideal. I'm still fairly new to the game, but on PvE I like to keep a small caliber turret mounted to deal with the annoying frigate tackling my Naga (which is mounting large guns). The fact that said Naga has no drone bay to host a contingent of light drones makes the tactic more sensible also.



You really shouldn't be missioning in a Naga -- it (along with the other three Attack Battlecruisers) is meant for guerrilla tactics in (pvp) combat. I mean, OK, yeah, you "can" use it ... but try a Ferox or a Drake, and you'll see that they can probably deal with the missions more easily, since you don't have to worry as much about your tank breaking when a cruiser looks at you funny.


In addition to that, hitting (incoming) rats is really easy, because they simply fly at you in a straight line. So target/shoot them first, and you can usually pop them in a single volley. (zero transversal negates the entire left side of the "chance to hit" formula, and provided that they're not out of range, this means you'll pretty much hit them 100% of the time).

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Luwc
State War Academy
Caldari State
#11 - 2014-09-01 13:12:39 UTC
long story short.

The bigger then gun. the slower the tracking.
The smaller the gun. the faster the tracking

Ship sizes do not really apply while certain classes go with a appopriate bonuses

for example

7,5% bonus to tracking of small hybrid weapons
7,5% bonus to tracking of medium hybrid weapons
7,5% bonus to tracking of large hybrid weapons

http://hugelolcdn.com/i/267520.gif
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#12 - 2014-09-01 23:12:45 UTC
Usually, the most effective thing a battleship can do against frigate NPCs is to either kill them with drones, or (non-missile ships) to exploit their terrible AI by shooting them when they approach you. Attack battlecruisers such as the Naga are similar.

Against player frigates, usually your best option is to attack their capacitor with a heavy energy neutralizer, then use the opportunity provided by that to flee the scene.

Some battleships (notably the Dominix and the Amarr droneboat) have much better options for flyswatting.

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com
Clarice Humphries
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#13 - 2014-09-02 01:32:16 UTC
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:
Usually, the most effective thing a battleship can do against frigate NPCs is to either kill them with drones, or (non-missile ships) to exploit their terrible AI by shooting them when they approach you. Attack battlecruisers such as the Naga are similar.

Against player frigates, usually your best option is to attack their capacitor with a heavy energy neutralizer, then use the opportunity provided by that to flee the scene.

Some battleships (notably the Dominix and the Amarr droneboat) have much better options for flyswatting.



so frigates win from battleships...in most cases? seems weird from a new players point of view. or am i missing something?
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#14 - 2014-09-02 01:48:43 UTC
Clarice Humphries wrote:
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:
Usually, the most effective thing a battleship can do against frigate NPCs is to either kill them with drones, or (non-missile ships) to exploit their terrible AI by shooting them when they approach you. Attack battlecruisers such as the Naga are similar.

Against player frigates, usually your best option is to attack their capacitor with a heavy energy neutralizer, then use the opportunity provided by that to flee the scene.

Some battleships (notably the Dominix and the Amarr droneboat) have much better options for flyswatting.



so frigates win from battleships...in most cases? seems weird from a new players point of view. or am i missing something?


A baseball bat is a fearsome weapon IRL, but not much use against a fly. Likewise a battleship struggles to hit anything small.

As a broad rule of thumb, cruisers beat frigates, battleships beat cruisers, and frigates beat battleships. This is not always true, but is a good starting point.

Battleships aren't 'better' than smaller ships, they are good at different things.

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com
J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#15 - 2014-09-02 06:18:34 UTC  |  Edited by: J'Poll
Clarice Humphries wrote:
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:
Usually, the most effective thing a battleship can do against frigate NPCs is to either kill them with drones, or (non-missile ships) to exploit their terrible AI by shooting them when they approach you. Attack battlecruisers such as the Naga are similar.

Against player frigates, usually your best option is to attack their capacitor with a heavy energy neutralizer, then use the opportunity provided by that to flee the scene.

Some battleships (notably the Dominix and the Amarr droneboat) have much better options for flyswatting.



so frigates win from battleships...in most cases? seems weird from a new players point of view. or am i missing something?



Where does Sabriz say that frigates mostly win from battleships.


Sabriz mentions what you can do and that frigates CAN be threat to battleships.


It's weird that new players think that bigger is always better...


Ships are tools, pick the correct tool for the correct job.

Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy

Help channel: Help chat - Reloaded

Public roams channels: RvB Ganked / Redemption Road / Spectre Fleet / Bombers bar / The Content Club
Toshiro Hasegawa
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#16 - 2014-09-02 15:16:59 UTC
the real life comparison is that the biggest ships / or planes .. fly in group with small specialists whose job it is to screen and to protect the big ships / planes from small stuff .. while the big ship / plane .. does what it is meant to do which is deploy huge firepower on a single enemy high value target. Mixed fleets are usually a good idea - when the big ships are involved ..

History is the study of change.

Vol Arm'OOO
Central Co-Prosperity Union
#17 - 2014-09-02 17:02:27 UTC
ISD Tipene wrote:
Tracking speed is an attribute on the turret you are using, so yes fitting smaller guns onto larger ships would allow you to hit smaller targets easier. When comparing guns you will be able to see it's tracking speed attribute. The higher this is, the quicker a gun can turn and the easier it will track targets.

However damage bonuses on ships are tied to the size of guns used so battleships gain bonuses to large guns. If they don't have large guns fitted they lose out on the bonuses and something that does (like a destroyer) would actually out damage a battleship in this situation. If you find yourself struggling to deal with smaller ships, this is usually where drones or friends in smaller ships come in.


in addition to drones, there are things you can do/fit to improve your tracking. There are mods that directly impact tracking, and others that have indirect effects such webs/scrams which can slow a targeted ship down decreasing angular velocity and target painters that increase the signature of the other ship making it easier to hit.

I don't play, I just fourm warrior.
Vol Arm'OOO
Central Co-Prosperity Union
#18 - 2014-09-02 17:06:43 UTC
Clarice Humphries wrote:
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:
Usually, the most effective thing a battleship can do against frigate NPCs is to either kill them with drones, or (non-missile ships) to exploit their terrible AI by shooting them when they approach you. Attack battlecruisers such as the Naga are similar.

Against player frigates, usually your best option is to attack their capacitor with a heavy energy neutralizer, then use the opportunity provided by that to flee the scene.

Some battleships (notably the Dominix and the Amarr droneboat) have much better options for flyswatting.



so frigates win from battleships...in most cases? seems weird from a new players point of view. or am i missing something?



The confusion comes about from the fact that BS in game are not fit like BS IRL. CCP made a conscious decision to gimp BS so that they would not be an automatic I win button. Frigs in game can solo a BS under the right circumstances. But it is not necessarily easy or a guarantee.

I don't play, I just fourm warrior.
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#19 - 2014-09-02 17:46:02 UTC
Vol Arm'OOO wrote:

The confusion comes about from the fact that BS in game are not fit like BS IRL. CCP made a conscious decision to gimp BS so that they would not be an automatic I win button. Frigs in game can solo a BS under the right circumstances. But it is not necessarily easy or a guarantee.

confirming, its a fun challange.

Murderers of Negotiable Motivations

=]|[=
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#20 - 2014-09-02 19:57:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Tau Cabalander
Clarice Humphries wrote:
so frigates win from battleships...in most cases? seems weird from a new players point of view. or am i missing something?

A battleship has problems hitting a frigate that is travelling with a traversal velocity that exceeds the tracking of the battleship's turrets.

Some possible solutions:
* Send drones after the frigate.
* Web the frigate to slow it down.
* Energy neutralize the frigate (turns-off its propulsion module).
* Use a Warp Scrambler on the frigate to shut-off its MWD.
* Manually navigate the larger ship so the frigate has a lower traversal velocity.
* Fit mid-slot and / or low-slot tracking modules.
* Use a smartbomb, to force the frigate to orbit further away.
* Be assisted by remote tracking computers from other friendly fleet ships.
* Use a target painter to make the frigate effectively a larger target. [Applies more to missiles.]

Example: My Tornado with 1400mm artillery and no drones, cannot generally hit a moving frigate closer than ~20 km, however I can easily one-volley them at about 30 km. So I try to kite away from the frigate, and really like it when they follow directly behind, as 0 traversal velocity even for a moment = dead frigate.

EDIT: I hate battling a Dominx (and drone boats in general), as they do have drones, and often also webs, neuts, and even smartbombs.
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