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[CSM] December Summit - Little things - FW, Wormholes

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Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
#41 - 2011-11-26 03:52:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Hans Jagerblitzen
Also, since you have clarified that this list was proposed by CCP, and not the CSM, I just wanted to add that I am not personally holding the CSM responsible for somehow failing us once again.

I know that you are not all FW participants, I'm asking you to think beyond a group of niche players and see that lowsec gameplay is stale for the same reasons nullsec is stale - lack of rewards, broken sovereignty mechanics. The things that bother you, bother us in FW as well.

Think of past CSM - their repeated proposals fell on deaf ears because of Incarna and WoD focus - Faction Warfare used to be a much larger talking point. Please don't punish us for having suffered dwindling numbers due to time and attrition - take advantage of this opportunity now that CSM 6 has the privilege to be working with "the new CCP", and help us get the attention that is long overdue.

Our only chance here is for members of the CSM to look beyond pure representational demographics and think about FW fixes on the basis of merit, not simply on popular support.

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary
Two step
Aperture Harmonics
#42 - 2011-11-26 04:05:21 UTC
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
Also, since you have clarified that this list was proposed by CCP, and not the CSM, I just wanted to add that I am not personally holding the CSM responsible for somehow failing us once again.

I know that you are not all FW participants, I'm asking you to think beyond a group of niche players and see that lowsec gameplay is stale for the same reasons nullsec is stale - lack of rewards, broken sovereignty mechanics. The things that bother you, bother us in FW as well.

Think of past CSM - their repeated proposals fell on deaf ears because of Incarna and WoD focus - Faction Warfare used to be a much larger talking point. Please don't punish us for having suffered dwindling numbers due to time and attrition - take advantage of this opportunity now that CSM 6 has the privilege to be working with "the new CCP", and help us get the attention that is long overdue.

Our only chance here is for members of the CSM to look beyond pure representational demographics and think about FW fixes on the basis of merit, not simply on popular support.


To clarify again, it wasn't the *list* that was proposed by CCP, it was the session topic.

With regards to convincing CCP to work on FW, that is going to have to mostly fall on the *players* not on the CSM. One of the things the CSM doesn't really do is decide directions for CCP to work on, though we are helpful once said direction has been decided on. If you want CCP to work on FW stuff more, you are going to have to convince them that it is worth working on.

CSM 7 Secretary CSM 6 Alternate Delegate @two_step_eve on Twitter My Blog
Tahna Rouspel
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#43 - 2011-11-26 05:11:18 UTC
I agree with Hans when he says that Faction Warfare could much more than it is. It's not just for roleplayers, it's for anyone that wants a purpose in their fight. Not everyone has a chance or wants to join large null sec alliance, but the large scale epic space opera is appealing.

Faction Warfare is the step between highsec NPC and null sovereignty wars. I personally think it's good for the game to have people immersed in the story and support their faction. As I said before, it gives them a purpose and pride while they fight the enemy.

One thing I would like to see in highsec is more faction division. Most capsuleer seem to avoid standing-lowering missions. They aren't choosing side, they are just friendly with all faction. I find that lame. I want division and more fighting. People should feel compelled to pick side. Siding with a faction against their enemies should have more advantages. Not necessarily in a faction warfare way, but just have better reward for those faction missions.


Also, Two Steps, you're from Aperture harmonics, so I assume you have an opinion on most things related to wormholes. What's your thought on Intensive Refining Array? Do you know the reason why refining in a wormhole comes at such a lost?

Is that also to promote more movement between known space and wormholes?
How much independence do you think wormholes should have?
Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
#44 - 2011-11-26 06:16:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Hans Jagerblitzen
Two step wrote:

To clarify again, it wasn't the *list* that was proposed by CCP, it was the session topic.

With regards to convincing CCP to work on FW, that is going to have to mostly fall on the *players* not on the CSM. One of the things the CSM doesn't really do is decide directions for CCP to work on, though we are helpful once said direction has been decided on. If you want CCP to work on FW stuff more, you are going to have to convince them that it is worth working on.


I guess I still have a lot to learn than about what exactly the CSM does than. (I'm being serious here, not snarky) It was my understanding that many of you ran on campaigns that stood for things like "iterations before new features" and have specifically promoted that CCP redirects its focus from WiS to FiS. So what I thought I was seeing was a CSM that was very much in a position to influence the projects that CCP works on, seeing is how you were such outspoken supporters for the shift away from Incarna and World of Darkness and back onto "EvE proper" fixes. You engaged in a media blitz exposing CCP for ignoring the fanbase, than CCP swings around and starts working on features that have been championed by CSM members present and past on behalf of the player base.

Thus, it takes me by surprise to hear you say, (and I still don't fully understand) that "the CSM doesn't really decide the direction for CCP to work on." I mean, obviously you can't mandate anything, no argument there, but surely you can (and do) say "we believe X deserves some attention sooner than Y"?

Are you implying that current Crucible list is comprised of things CCP decided to work on out of a vacuum with or without the CSM's advocacy?? Again, not at all being sarcastic, I'm genuinely trying to learn about the whole process here, I appreciate your time and patience.

EDIT: Greater understanding about the CSM / CCP relationship aside, (and I understand that is a discussion topic of its own) my primary concern at this point is making sure you've found and reviewed the top "little fixes" we compiled for you in the thread. Your email to me asked for a list to be compiled and re-posted, so you could review it with CCP during the summit as long as there was time allocated for it, which they've offered you. I think the community will rest much easier knowing you've found the list and will be sharing it with CCP during the summit. Thanks again for your time, we appreciate it.

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary
Ya Huei
Imperial Collective
#45 - 2011-11-26 13:42:11 UTC
Why don't Class 4 systems have the random outgoing wormholes like the other class types have ? also, why do C4's not have the possibility of getting a k162 from K-SPACE ?

In case this is confusing people, occasionally a system can have a wormhole that is not "typical" to the system, ie, not one of its static wormholes. As far as I know this never occurs in C4's.

I'd like that added.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#46 - 2011-11-26 14:02:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Cearain
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
My ongoing fight has been and continues to be not just for the die-hard vets that still participate, but for all the frustrated pilots that have walked away, moved elsewhere, or even left the game because of treatment just like this. Its also for every pilot that has ever said, "I wish there was more small gang PvP" or "1 vs 1 fights are dead" or "lowsec is worthless and boring".

.


Two step wrote:


I know, since I didn't say something like "my personal list", it is easy to see how you could have misunderstood that list as the definitive CSM list. Roll

Look, I'm terribly sorry that you feel that everyone is ignoring FW, but I hate to break it to you, most of EVE is ignoring FW. Like I said to you in EVE mail, we don't have anyone on the current CSM that participates in FW. If you want us to bring up your little issues, you need to tell us what they are, and having them all in one thread makes that easier.

I also think you aren't understanding what Trebor and I said to you. We didn't promise you that everything wrong with FW would be fixed, we asked you for a list of smaller issues, because we wanted to have a list to present to CCP. This doesn't mean CCP is going to fix everything wrong with FW in the next patch (or even ever). This summit topic was a CCP requested topic, not a CSM requested topic.

As far as I can tell, there are far fewer FW folks than people that are living in w-space. Of course, FW needs a lot more work to be fixed, where w-space is mostly in good shape.



Hans, two step is right. He is here to represent players as they exist in eve now. Not what eve could be.

Fact is CCP has abandoned the only mechanic for frequent quality small gang and solo pvp for so long , very few of us have stuck with eve. Most people who play eve are fine with the blobs and certainly the current csm is fine with it. Some of the alternates I think may have an interest in small scale pvp, or at least they did in the past, but its unclear what they can do.

Not one full delegate on the csm does small scale pvp. It's amazing that ccp still has people clamoring for small scale pvp after they have consistently refused to work on mechanics to bring it about for so long. Really when are we going to give it?

EVE is blob warfare by design. 1000 ship fights make the news in the gamer websites. Players who don't like that leave and have left. Therefore the csm is going to be players who don't mind the blob and have no real interest in mechanics for small scale and solo pvp.

FW isn't going to be something that csm can champion. It's entirely too foreign to them. It will have to be ccp that decides they will finally implement a mechanic that promotes frequent quality small scale pvp.

I think the csm can recognize this. The only people who can give much input would be Elise Randolf and Prometheus. Even there Im not sure prom even knows the mechanics and you may have pissed Elise off with all your whining about pls super caps. Smile

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Two step
Aperture Harmonics
#47 - 2011-11-26 16:44:59 UTC
Cearain wrote:

Hans, two step is right. He is here to represent players as they exist in eve now. Not what eve could be.

Fact is CCP has abandoned the only mechanic for frequent quality small gang and solo pvp for so long , very few of us have stuck with eve. Most people who play eve are fine with the blobs and certainly the current csm is fine with it. Some of the alternates I think may have an interest in small scale pvp, or at least they did in the past, but its unclear what they can do.

Not one full delegate on the csm does small scale pvp. It's amazing that ccp still has people clamoring for small scale pvp after they have consistently refused to work on mechanics to bring it about for so long. Really when are we going to give it?

EVE is blob warfare by design. 1000 ship fights make the news in the gamer websites. Players who don't like that leave and have left. Therefore the csm is going to be players who don't mind the blob and have no real interest in mechanics for small scale and solo pvp.

FW isn't going to be something that csm can champion. It's entirely too foreign to them. It will have to be ccp that decides they will finally implement a mechanic that promotes frequent quality small scale pvp.

I think the csm can recognize this. The only people who can give much input would be Elise Randolf and Prometheus. Even there Im not sure prom even knows the mechanics and you may have pissed Elise off with all your whining about pls super caps. Smile


I disagree that FW is the only small gang PVP available. I think that a lot of the folks that went to FW looking for small gang PVP have found it in w-space. I nearly always PVP in fleets of 20 members or lower, often less than 10. If that isn't small gang PVP, I don't know what is.

CSM 7 Secretary CSM 6 Alternate Delegate @two_step_eve on Twitter My Blog
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#48 - 2011-11-26 17:48:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Cearain
Sitting in a wh waiting to gank an industrial is not anything close to what I am after. Hans is right fw and wh are completely different playstyles. At least they would be if ccp fixed fw.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Hiram Alexander
State Reprisal
#49 - 2011-11-26 18:45:46 UTC
I don't currently live in a WH, but when I did, one of the most frustrating things was being unable to repackage modules... over time you end up with insane amounts of unpackage items in your hangars (drones, especially...). Fixing that would be a godsend.
Hiram Alexander
State Reprisal
#50 - 2011-11-26 18:51:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Hiram Alexander
Two step wrote:
Remember, this is *little* things. I am still working on my personal list, here is what is on it so far:

1) Shields on ships out of a SMA/entering a Pulsar/joining a fleet
2) Better system than POS passwords for POS access (same UI as chat channels, would be awesome)
3) Capital SMAs allowed in w-space
4) Cans in corp hangers. Should be able to name them, open them, put stuff in them
5) Rename all POS structures
6) Randomness in sleeper spawns
7) Don't change sig ids after DT
8) Capital ship SD timers

Two step wrote:
Remember, this is *little* things. I am still working on my personal list, here is what is on it so far:
6) Randomness in sleeper spawns

100% this. Both from an economic perspective, and that of zzzzzz boredom.

But judging by the (apparent) damage being inflicted to the EVE economy by the comparatively risk-free hisec Incursion system, this should also be seriously looked at for the dynamic-spawn scenario...
MNagy
Yo-Mama
#51 - 2011-11-27 02:39:15 UTC
Tahna Rouspel wrote:

One thing I would like to see in highsec is more faction division. Most capsuleer seem to avoid standing-lowering missions. They aren't choosing side, they are just friendly with all faction. I find that lame.


I will give you a simple reason why I keep all my factions at High standing...
I plan to play this game a year from now and perhaps even 2 years from now.

I do not want to be "STUCK" just to Minmatar space or Caldari space just cause I wanted to run a couple FW things for a couple months.

The whole Faction standing needs a bit of work, as it takes waaaaayyyy tooo long to grind out missions to get the standing back.

So you may find it lame...

I find it lamer that it prevents me from playing other aspects of the game I might want to do later in life. Why would I pay for an account if I am only going to screw up my character and I suddenly can only play in 1 Faction's space.
Wormholes jump out to every system possible - even there - I would be limiting myself to gameplay.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#52 - 2011-11-27 03:09:47 UTC
Two step wrote:
I disagree that FW is the only small gang PVP available. I think that a lot of the folks that went to FW looking for small gang PVP have found it in w-space. I nearly always PVP in fleets of 20 members or lower, often less than 10. If that isn't small gang PVP, I don't know what is.




There is no good mechanic in eve for frequent quality small scale pvp. When I join fw i want to constantly have plexes to go and fight over. CCP should strive to have 2-5 decent pvp fights per hour happening in fw.

If people want to continue with the current game where you might wait around for hours for a single gank they wouldn't want to join fw. However I think allot of people would love it if the pvp action came allot faster than it currently does.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
#53 - 2011-11-27 03:37:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Hans Jagerblitzen
Cearain wrote:

Hans, two step is right. He is here to represent players as they exist in eve now. Not what eve could be.

Fact is CCP has abandoned the only mechanic for frequent quality small gang and solo pvp for so long , very few of us have stuck with eve. Most people who play eve are fine with the blobs and certainly the current csm is fine with it. Some of the alternates I think may have an interest in small scale pvp, or at least they did in the past, but its unclear what they can do.

Not one full delegate on the csm does small scale pvp. It's amazing that ccp still has people clamoring for small scale pvp after they have consistently refused to work on mechanics to bring it about for so long. Really when are we going to give it?


I completely understand Cearain. But you and I are players too, and there's nothing wrong with asking the CSM to share information with CCP. That's really all I'm trying to do here, is take what I've heard from the people I interact with, consolidate it, and send the message up the chain that this is what we see is broken, this is what would benefit the game if it were fixed. Also, that we see Faction Warfare as an area where minimal fixes can reap great reward in terms of enhanced gameplay and activity.

You and I have a different background than Two Step, that's totally cool. I truly appreciate the diversity of activities there are in the game, and really want there to continue to be a variety of vibrant and unique forms of gameplay each with its own set of challenges and rewards. Wormholing is indeed a place where small gang PvP can occur, and it is also one of the areas that is essentially Supercap and Titan free. But just because Two Step and I have spent time in different areas of the game doesn't mean I'm somehow ineligible to say anything to him and have him pass it along during a summit talk. All I can do is ask, and if I didn't at least ask I would be doing my own community a disservice, regardless of whether Two Step shares our lists of fixes with CCP.

And Two Step - I understood you, when I meant "the list" I mean the topics list - I'm saying its not your fault that the topic is called "Little things: FW and Wormholes". No one should be seeing the CSM as somehow trying to "belittle" us by using that phrasing, cause it was CCP's words not yours. The other list you posted is your own, which rightfully so is focused on wormhole fixes because that's your background. You have your wish list, I've compiled a wish list on behalf of the Faction Warfare community, I'm just confirming that you're talking about both during the summit. Whether Cearain feels you represent me or not, you had offered to share our list, so I'm simply following up is all.

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary
Tiger's Spirit
Templars of the Shadows
#54 - 2011-11-27 09:19:30 UTC
FW: The most important changes what need.

No docking permissions for the enemy FW participants in occupied enemy controlled systems.
Let a sense be given the fight for starsystems.
Damassys Kadesh
Royal Khanid Hunting Society
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#55 - 2011-11-27 09:28:17 UTC
Speaking up for FW here, and repeating again for crystal clarity:

The OP has been edited to list the top trending FW issues with a description of each, and the threadnought that follows goes into extreme depth, should any more clarification be needed:

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=18015

I can copy and past the list right into this thread if that will make it easier...

Sourem Itharen > Congratulations Lady Kadesh, you have been selected by trial of fire and blood, under the watchful eyes of God, to represent Lord Khanid as his champion in the Imperial Succession trials -YC117
Wolodymyr
Breaking Ambitions
#56 - 2011-11-27 10:15:13 UTC
I really wish I could set up a station in a wormhole.

cloning bay, market orders, all in W-space. Although the market would probably have to be limited to only displaying the solar system.

Maybe this ruins the manliness of living out of a POS with no reliable access to regular space to rely on. And it might make it way too easy to turtle up and make these impenetrable W-space fortresses. But sometimes I just want to dock up.

I honestly think PoCo based sov is a good idea https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1417544
Trebor Daehdoow
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#57 - 2011-11-27 11:15:16 UTC
Cearain wrote:
EVE is blob warfare by design. 1000 ship fights make the news in the gamer websites. Players who don't like that leave and have left. Therefore the csm is going to be players who don't mind the blob and have no real interest in mechanics for small scale and solo pvp.

FW isn't going to be something that csm can champion. It's entirely too foreign to them. It will have to be ccp that decides they will finally implement a mechanic that promotes frequent quality small scale pvp.


QFT. The current game design has a greater-than-unity power scaling function for fleets -- it's almost always, if not always, increasing the size of your fleet, which leads to a mutual runaway to the blob. I raised this issue in my original CSM5 campaign, coining "fleets expand to fit the lag available".

TiDi will address some of the technical issues with lag, but it also opens headroom to permit even larger blobs, so it's only really buying time; eventually the fleets will get big enough to make the TiDi factor so large that it'll be unplayable. CCP really needs to change the mechanics to get away from the "dirtbag is primary, everyone shoot dirtbag. douchenozzle is secondary..." blob fights we have now.

WRT FW, if changes are made that make it more popular without addressing the underlying combat mechanics issues the game faces, it'll just blob up.

Private Citizen • CSM in recovery
Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
#58 - 2011-11-27 11:29:46 UTC
Trebor Daehdoow wrote:

WRT FW, if changes are made that make it more popular without addressing the underlying combat mechanics issues the game faces, it'll just blob up.


Could you elaborate a little more on what you meant by this? I was wondering which changes you are referring to in terms of popularity, and which underlying mechanics issues you speak of.

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary
Wendi Wu
Curiously Incompetent
#59 - 2011-11-27 17:34:58 UTC
Damassys Kadesh wrote:
I can copy and past the list right into this thread if that will make it easier...


I think that's probably a good idea.

Here's the summarized version of Hans' compiled list of requested fixes from the FW community:

Quick Fixes

1.) Have plexes spawn throughout the day instead of primarily after downtime.
2.) Pirate frigates shouldn't be allowed in minor plexes.
3.) Repping a militia member with low security status should not kill faction standing.
4.) Repping a friendly low sec status militia member who is a victim of aggression should not result in GCC.
5.) Give some kind of highly visible alert or intel system for when territory is threatened.

Big Fixes

1.) Make plexing more rewarding.
2.) Balance faction NPCs.
3.) Change FW missions so they can't be soloed in a stealth bomber.
4.) Make FW sov do something, rather than being meaningless as it is at present.

The full, expanded list can be found here: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=18015
Damassys Kadesh
Royal Khanid Hunting Society
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#60 - 2011-11-27 18:30:30 UTC
Something else I'll chime in on here.

It's not up to us to throw around estimated statistics of FW or WH popularity, or to compare them, or to then decide which issues have merit.

There is a strong voice in the EVE community asking for recognition and development time. The voice is strong enough that it has been heard by CCP employees, discussed by CCP employees, sent up the chain by CCP employees, to the point where the CEO, the man in charge of the entire company, has heard it, considered it, and deemed it weighty enough to directly reference it's need for work in a very important letter to the entire community.

That should be enough for everyone. If we just stick to the simplest communication here, it will be best for everyone.

What are the issues?
Are the issues clear to the CSM?
Can the CSM communicate them clearly to CCP?

Sourem Itharen > Congratulations Lady Kadesh, you have been selected by trial of fire and blood, under the watchful eyes of God, to represent Lord Khanid as his champion in the Imperial Succession trials -YC117