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Self-updating market orders

Author
Asheava
Darwinbots
#21 - 2014-08-29 19:40:50 UTC
Sigras wrote:
Also it seems that you really only have a problem with the 5 minute edit timer not the game mechanic itself.


Indeed, but I don't think CCP want players spamming the market order database every 2 seconds to .01 isk each other. That's the only reason I can see for the 5 minute limit: it's a technical limitation.

lady rift wrote:
Once you get to your max number of orders the 5 min limit will seam almost to short.


Oh, you keep busy, sure. But any individual item market will move towards equilibrium only very slowly. I've raised the buy order price of items in jira by 300K or more in a day, go to sleep, then wake up and find 10 orders ahead of me in priority, but the price has moved only 2.65 isk in the intervening 8 hours.

For some items I've literally caused other people to bid so high that the minimum possible sales tax is larger than the margin. I cancel my order and just buy from a sell order. Does the price go back down after I cancel my order? No, because 5 other people are still trying to .01 isk each other to the top. Turns out there was a bull run on that item, but it was going .01 isk at a time. At that rate, it would have taken weeks to close the spread.

It's fine if others want to outbid me. Maybe they can do more profitable things with what I'm trying to buy. Or can produce what I'm selling cheaper. Just, let's get on with it.
Asheava
Darwinbots
#22 - 2014-08-29 19:52:02 UTC
Summer Isle wrote:
Asheava wrote:
I actually had thought about this, but as you say it's good for the consumer. I'm willing to make that sacrifice for the health of the markets. A more efficient market, in the short term, might reduce my margins, but in the long term should make trades happen faster, which increases my turnover and helps me make up for margin loss on volume.

At the extreme, I'd be perfectly happy selling to a buy order, and buying from a sell order, if the buy/ask spread was narrow enough.

In the long-run, it would destroy the economy. Every item would end up being within 0.01 ISK between buy and sell orders, and it would have an extreme negative affect on manufacturers, at least as far as modules go.

Modules, though they can only be brought into the game via manufacturing (with exceptions), can be acquired by non-manufacturers to be put on the market through PvP. A PvP'er doesn't care if their item is below the minimum manufacturing value because, to them, it's pure profit so long as it's above the reprocessing value. If there are 100 orders that are at 10000 ISK on an item whose minimum raw material cost is 10000 ISK, putting their items at 0.01 ISK below that has now moved the market to a point where it has become impossible for manufacturers to create a profit until the modules put up by the non-manufacturer have been removed from the market.

Likewise, the buy orders will end up at 9999.99 ISK on the above example as otherwise, it's cheaper to simply make the module yourself (again, looking simply at the raw material value). There would be many items whose value would be even lower, stuck at the reprocessing value.

This 0.01 ISK difference will happen on things that can be acquired without manufacturing simply because, to the one who acquired it "for free," it functions as pure ISK. Manufacturers could band together and say "we won't sell below 12,000 ISK" (hypothetical... the day EvE's player-base manages to achieve that will be the day the world ends), but as soon as a module falls into the hands of someone "for free" (be it through PvP, corp theft, or any other form of means without a direct ISK value), you're able to make a profit at 11,999.99 ISK. Shortly after, along comes PvP'er-2, who lists their items at 11,999.98 ISK.

Everything will trend to the minimum value based on material cost, or worse, the reprocessing value.

So long as something can be sold by someone who obtained it without direct material cost, you're going to end up in a situation where they're able to make a profit on it by dipping below where manufacturers can do so.


Well, you're forgetting sales tax and brokers fees. But let's say there aren't any.

If the quantity of Uber PvP Gank Module #7 that PvPers can acquire by killing each other perfectly satisfies the demands that PvPers have for Uber PvP Gank Module #7, no new ones will be manufactured. That's actually good for the Eve economy: no wasted effort making things no one needs more of.

If, on the other hand, the fact that modules can get destroyed when a ship blows up means that some number of Uber PvP Gank Module #7 have to be manufactured, there will be a market for it. Manufacturers have a finite number of manufacturing slots, so the profit from making an item has to be large enough to warrant the use of a slot, the capital that went in to manufacturing it being tied up for the manufacturing time (days, maybe months even), and the manufacturing fees.

If it isn't profitable for anyone to produce at the current price, it will rise as the supply diminishes over time. Eventually it is profitable, and a market equilibrium is reached.

This, of course, assumes you're selling in a trade hub. If you're the only manufacturer out in the middle of nowhere, you can often get a premium for manufactured items, but at a reduced volume.

Also, if the only profit you're making from industry is in the mark up of the ask buy spread, you'd be better off just doing market making in a trade hub. Why are you manufacturing at all? If you're doing industry right, you could buy from sell orders and sell to buy orders and still make good profit.
Feyrin
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#23 - 2014-08-29 20:53:48 UTC
I like this thread it is intelligent and well mannered.
Zepheros Naeonis
TinklePee
#24 - 2014-08-30 00:48:18 UTC
Asheava wrote:
Sigras wrote:
Also it seems that you really only have a problem with the 5 minute edit timer not the game mechanic itself.


Indeed, but I don't think CCP want players spamming the market order database every 2 seconds to .01 isk each other. That's the only reason I can see for the 5 minute limit: it's a technical limitation.


I don't think CCP wants lazy asses trying to control the market either.
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#25 - 2014-08-30 00:55:53 UTC
I'm just waiting to see the first person to sell 1 item at insane high price to drive all the auto-orders up to max and then sell him their now high priced product.
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