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The costs of PVP is too much for new players
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Harrison Tato
Yamato Holdings
#181 - 2014-08-28 18:06:37 UTC
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Harrison Tato wrote:

I know. I have a hard time dealing with my own awesomeness most of the time! I thought it summed up the attitudes of many of the people who play EvE but don't get to ride in the FunVee.


Display some awesomeness and actually address the points given.



I think you missed it.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#182 - 2014-08-28 18:06:56 UTC
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Harrison Tato wrote:


I know. I have a hard time dealing with my own awesomeness most of the time! I thought it summed up the attitudes of many of the people who play EvE but don't get to ride in the FunVee.
\

Ah, the 'standard dodge'. We see it a lot around here.

Say something stupid, the play it off like you didn't say something stupid. It works well in both internet forums and politics.


We here at the Damien McCandless Institute of Behavioural Science call it "Salvosing"


LMAO
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#183 - 2014-08-28 18:07:31 UTC
Harrison Tato wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Harrison Tato wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:

I would be if I went to parties.


Color me shocked!



I used to party a lot. I was always the first one to get drunk and naked and start singing karaoke at the top of my lungs from the roof of whatever was easiest to climb. You have to know how to let loose on the weekends after a week of cooking for more than 300 people in the space of two hours, five nights a week. I'm 31 now, I still have fun but after a brush with cancer and a veritable gamut of life problems, I've found myself calming down substantially and finding new ways to have fun without exerting myself.



I had a guy run over my motorcycle while doing 70 miles an hour. I still enjoy a good party but never did karaoke or ran around drunk and naked.


I'm not here to compare sob stories, all I'm saying is I've lived an active enough life for me. Are you me? No? Then we're going to have different experiences and experience the same ones differently. I really hate it when I explain why I choose a quiet life now and someone tries to "out-victim" me, especially when I'm not trying to paint myself as a victim. It's really ******* immature and it's also a digression. Ramona is right, you're derailing.

If you suck at EVE, it's up to you to get better, it's not up to the devs to change the game to suit your suckiness at the expense of those of us who have adapted to what it is. So go **** yourselves you whiny twirps, and get on our level. I know I'm being an elitist right now, but I don't really care, you've pissed me off and you ******* deserve it. Fail at EVE, or not, it's actually your choice.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#184 - 2014-08-28 18:08:41 UTC
Tolkaz Khamsi wrote:
Ramona McCandless wrote:
What's your point, sportsfan?


One of them is that it's really easy to get a rise out of the SERIOUS BUSINESS players. As I have just proved.

Another is that there's a large gap between "making the game fun for noobs" on one hand, and "ZOMG EVE IS TURNING INTO WOW" on the other. It's not a binary choice.


You're right its not. And I and everyone I have introduced to the game and many who have come before found the game fun for new players WITHOUT demanding an easy mode.

Tolkaz Khamsi wrote:
I'm a player who gets a kick out of helping noobs out rather than ganking their T1 frigs at stargates.


If I believed you ever helped a new player in your life, I wouldnt be having this conversation with you.

But you dont, do you?

You rip them off.

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Harrison Tato
Yamato Holdings
#185 - 2014-08-28 18:09:24 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Harrison Tato wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Harrison Tato wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:

I would be if I went to parties.


Color me shocked!



I used to party a lot. I was always the first one to get drunk and naked and start singing karaoke at the top of my lungs from the roof of whatever was easiest to climb. You have to know how to let loose on the weekends after a week of cooking for more than 300 people in the space of two hours, five nights a week. I'm 31 now, I still have fun but after a brush with cancer and a veritable gamut of life problems, I've found myself calming down substantially and finding new ways to have fun without exerting myself.



I had a guy run over my motorcycle while doing 70 miles an hour. I still enjoy a good party but never did karaoke or ran around drunk and naked.


I'm not here to compare sob stories, all I'm saying is I've lived an active enough life for me. Are you me? No? Then we're going to have different experiences and experience the same ones differently. I really hate it when I explain why I choose a quiet life now and someone tries to "out-victim" me, especially when I'm not trying to paint myself as a victim. It's really ******* immature and it's also a digression. Ramona is right, you're derailing.

If you suck at EVE, it's up to you to get better, it's not up to the devs to change the game to suit your suckiness at the expense of those of us who have adapted to what it is. So go **** yourselves you whiny twirps, and get on our level. I know I'm being an elitist right now, but I don't really care, you've pissed me off and you ******* deserve it. Fail at EVE, or not, it's actually your choice.



Dude, you need to release your hate. It doesn't lead to anything positive.
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#186 - 2014-08-28 18:09:51 UTC
Harrison Tato wrote:
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Harrison Tato wrote:

I know. I have a hard time dealing with my own awesomeness most of the time! I thought it summed up the attitudes of many of the people who play EvE but don't get to ride in the FunVee.


Display some awesomeness and actually address the points given.



I think you missed it.


Clearly. It was obviously beneath my notice.

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Ssabat Thraxx
DUST Expeditionary Team
Good Sax
#187 - 2014-08-28 18:12:11 UTC
I sometimes think that things were more fun in the 80's and early 90's. Anyone else remember the BBS days? I sorta miss the community connection you could get from that. I made a lot of rl friends from the BBS's, including the one who has been my best friend now for over 20 yrs.

I also remember when you could still return software to the store. I would often go buy a game at Wal Mart, install it, and then return it, claiming it didn't work on my computer.

Ah, those were the days.

Anyway, totally off topic, but wth, I havent had occasion for a "back in my day.." post in forever.

\m/ O.o \m/

"You're a freak ..." - Solecist Project
Harrison Tato
Yamato Holdings
#188 - 2014-08-28 18:12:11 UTC
Tolkaz Khamsi wrote:
Ramona McCandless wrote:
What's your point, sportsfan?


One of them is that it's really easy to get a rise out of the SERIOUS BUSINESS players. As I have just proved.

Another is that there's a large gap between "making the game fun for noobs" on one hand, and "ZOMG EVE IS TURNING INTO WOW" on the other. It's not a binary choice.

This is an evergreen in Eve, though: the notion that making Eve more accessible to new players amounts to making it a themepark or "dumbing it down". I generally chalk it up to bittervet syndrome -- that since you had to grind up the hard way, new players should have to as well. That attitude makes no sense to me, but then I'm a player who gets a kick out of helping noobs out rather than ganking their T1 frigs at stargates.





It is refreshing to see that some people understand that a belief that is contradictory to their own can still be valid!
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#189 - 2014-08-28 18:12:42 UTC
Tolkaz Khamsi wrote:
... SERIOUS BUSINESS players. ..."ZOMG EVE IS TURNING INTO WOW" ..."dumbing it down". ... bittervet syndrome

All those assessments are nothing but ways to judge others and it happens all around. There are many more.

But as they are all essentially insults and don't do much to advance a discussion, because none of them are fully representative on anyone, the same way no stereotype is fully representative of anyone.

Quote:
...I'm a player who gets a kick out of helping noobs out rather than ganking their T1 frigs at stargates.

That's great. I think you'll find you aren't alone in that and many of the people that you judge for being different to what you see as acceptable, do exactly the same thing.
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#190 - 2014-08-28 18:12:50 UTC
Harrison Tato wrote:



Dude, you need to release your hate. It doesn't lead to anything positive.


Justified anger at your passive pretentiousness and arrogance =/= hate. Me telling you to go **** yourself leads to plenty of positive, it makes me feel better.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#191 - 2014-08-28 18:12:51 UTC
Tolkaz Khamsi wrote:
Ramona McCandless wrote:
What's your point, sportsfan?


One of them is that it's really easy to get a rise out of the SERIOUS BUSINESS players. As I have just proved.

Another is that there's a large gap between "making the game fun for noobs" on one hand, and "ZOMG EVE IS TURNING INTO WOW" on the other. It's not a binary choice.

This is an evergreen in Eve, though: the notion that making Eve more accessible to new players amounts to making it a themepark or "dumbing it down". I generally chalk it up to bittervet syndrome -- that since you had to grind up the hard way, new players should have to as well. That attitude makes no sense to me, but then I'm a player who gets a kick out of helping noobs out rather than ganking their T1 frigs at stargates.




I will never get how some people find a why to think themselves all superior because they don't shoot people in a video game that allows shooting.

As far as making the game more accessible. CCP did that.

Revamping Tutorials, getting rid of learning skills, makig ships and weapons easier to train for. SAFTIES. Crime watch. improved CONCORD response times. Teircide that makes tech1 and faction ships and gear useful. Making the exploration system 'user friendly'. Making faction warfare as 'a lower barrier step into PVP' as they put it when they made it, more EHP for non-combat ships etc etc etc.

End result? EVE's year after year growth stopped or at least slowed down. Like I said, you people really think yo know what you want or what's best for noobs, but what you end up with is a game neither noobs nor vets want to play.
Ssabat Thraxx
DUST Expeditionary Team
Good Sax
#192 - 2014-08-28 18:13:20 UTC
Harrison Tato wrote:
Dude, you need to release your hate. It doesn't lead to anything positive.


You just try telling that to Emperor Palpatine! Attention


\m/ O.o \m/

"You're a freak ..." - Solecist Project
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#193 - 2014-08-28 18:13:24 UTC
Harrison Tato wrote:

It is refreshing to see that some people understand that a belief that is contradictory to their own can still be valid!


So when I say "I disagree, but Ill not tell you why", you are going to accept that as a valid position?

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Harrison Tato
Yamato Holdings
#194 - 2014-08-28 18:13:43 UTC
Ssabat Thraxx wrote:
I sometimes think that things were more fun in the 80's and early 90's. Anyone else remember the BBS days? I sorta miss the community connection you could get from that. I made a lot of rl friends from the BBS's, including the one who has been my best friend now for over 20 yrs.

I also remember when you could still return software to the store. I would often go buy a game at Wal Mart, install it, and then return it, claiming it didn't work on my computer.

Ah, those were the days.

Anyway, totally off topic, but wth, I havent had occasion for a "back in my day.." post in forever.



I ran up $100 long distance phone bill playing a turn based game with my Commodore 64 and a 300 baud modem.

Did Walmart sell computer software in the 80's?
Harrison Tato
Yamato Holdings
#195 - 2014-08-28 18:14:30 UTC
Ssabat Thraxx wrote:
Harrison Tato wrote:
Dude, you need to release your hate. It doesn't lead to anything positive.


You just try telling that to Emperor Palpatine! Attention





Look where it got him!
Harrison Tato
Yamato Holdings
#196 - 2014-08-28 18:15:37 UTC
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Harrison Tato wrote:

It is refreshing to see that some people understand that a belief that is contradictory to their own can still be valid!


So when I say "I disagree, but Ill not tell you why", you are going to accept that as a valid position?


In this game? Sure because internet spaceships are a game. Not serious business!
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#197 - 2014-08-28 18:17:00 UTC
Harrison Tato wrote:
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Harrison Tato wrote:

It is refreshing to see that some people understand that a belief that is contradictory to their own can still be valid!


So when I say "I disagree, but Ill not tell you why", you are going to accept that as a valid position?


In this game? Sure because internet spaceships are a game. Not serious business!


Translation: i can shiptoast all day, it's just a game.

That means that no one need listen to what you have to say. We already know that but thanks for confirming.

Oh and "lol".
Crumplecorn
Eve Cluster Explorations
#198 - 2014-08-28 18:17:02 UTC
Tolkaz Khamsi wrote:
One of them is that it's really easy to get a rise out of the SERIOUS BUSINESS players. As I have just proved.
Now it's serious business in allcaps. Don't you get it? The forums are ENTERTAINMENT.

Tolkaz Khamsi wrote:
Another is that there's a large gap between "making the game fun for noobs" on one hand, and "ZOMG EVE IS TURNING INTO WOW" on the other. It's not a binary choice.
The game is fun for noobs there is nobody here that wasn't a noob at some point. And it used to be harder for noobs than it is now and yet we all found it fun enough to stay.

All you are saying is the game doesn't meet your definition of fun, which you have demonstrated is instant gratification nonsense.

Witty Image - Stream

Not Liking this post hurts my RL feelings and will be considered harassment
Harrison Tato
Yamato Holdings
#199 - 2014-08-28 18:18:40 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Tolkaz Khamsi wrote:
Ramona McCandless wrote:
What's your point, sportsfan?


One of them is that it's really easy to get a rise out of the SERIOUS BUSINESS players. As I have just proved.

Another is that there's a large gap between "making the game fun for noobs" on one hand, and "ZOMG EVE IS TURNING INTO WOW" on the other. It's not a binary choice.

This is an evergreen in Eve, though: the notion that making Eve more accessible to new players amounts to making it a themepark or "dumbing it down". I generally chalk it up to bittervet syndrome -- that since you had to grind up the hard way, new players should have to as well. That attitude makes no sense to me, but then I'm a player who gets a kick out of helping noobs out rather than ganking their T1 frigs at stargates.




I will never get how some people find a why to think themselves all superior because they don't shoot people in a video game that allows shooting.

As far as making the game more accessible. CCP did that.

Revamping Tutorials, getting rid of learning skills, makig ships and weapons easier to train for. SAFTIES. Crime watch. improved CONCORD response times. Teircide that makes tech1 and faction ships and gear useful. Making the exploration system 'user friendly'. Making faction warfare as 'a lower barrier step into PVP' as they put it when they made it, more EHP for non-combat ships etc etc etc.

End result? EVE's year after year growth stopped or at least slowed down. Like I said, you people really think yo know what you want or what's best for noobs, but what you end up with is a game neither noobs nor vets want to play.



I just warped right on top of the same guy with a two month old character ratting in a destroyer in a .4 system for the third day in a row. Today I blew him up, sent him the isk to buy a new ship, emailed and chatted in local that he shouldn't do what he does, and still feel bad about it. He sent me a thank you note in Russian. He then brought out an Oracle and I couldn't shoot him because it would be like clubbing a baby seal.
Darsena Izuma
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#200 - 2014-08-28 18:19:27 UTC
Ssabat Thraxx wrote:
I sometimes think that things were more fun in the 80's and early 90's. Anyone else remember the BBS days? I sorta miss the community connection you could get from that. I made a lot of rl friends from the BBS's, including the one who has been my best friend now for over 20 yrs.


All my current good friends I met through BBSes back in the 80s and 90s. Back in the days when the "online" was mostly local people. Lots of good "door" games from those days.

--

To the thread topic: Of course there's a middle ground between helping new players to an extent and turning things into WoW-theme-park-land. I'm not even saying that some of the ideas given here of how to lead new players into PvP are inherently bad. But remember, even in WoW, you're not handed the Ultimate Mythical Armor and Sword on day one, and no one says to the new player: "Welcome, now you have the REAL ULTIMATE POWER, go forth and PvP against level 70 people and win!" There is such a thing as a learning curve even in that kind of game, and there is nothing wrong with that. It doesn't make it any less a "game," nor any less "entertaining."

As has been pointed out quite well by others, EVE is simply more so, and the challenge and learning curve only adds to the gratification for those who stick with it long enough to see results.

Fedo are not what they seem to be.  Welcome to Night Vale.