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High Sec Hauling/Mining Kills - TY CCP for No Protection

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Sentamon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#161 - 2014-08-28 02:08:45 UTC
Duchess Amarrian wrote:
I just want to say a big thank you to those people who did give some positives out of this. As for the macho ego's out there I thank you for wasting your time in this post as it didn't really contribute to anything apart from many http addresses.

It was hard to take a punch below the belt in eve but hey i take it and will only get better to not get another one soon. I love the game thats for sure. I got blown up instantly coming out of cloak whilst at the station in docking range. It sounds like I"m guilty for this action by the sound of some people in this post, amazing.


Anyways thank you and enjoy.


Not guilty, but incredibly naïve. Some good life advice for you, if in the real world is some stranger wants $50,000 collateral to transport something for him in your car, DONT DO IT!

~ Professional Forum Alt  ~
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#162 - 2014-08-28 02:13:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Angeal MacNova wrote:
Not only that but the added expense is factored in when goods are produced. So two things happen;

1. If the indy players are just in it for the isk and the loss of their ships becomes too much of an expense, they'll do something else like run missions. Less producers means inflated prices. This is compounded if the other thing these players do causes them to lose ships as this will now increase the demand also.

2. Those that do stick it out will factor the expense into their selling price and the price of all goods will increase. Again, inflation.

So while the act of ganking in itself is not bad and can be good for the economy, the gankers' favorite choice of target is bad for the games economy in both the short and long term.
…except for the simple fact that the production capacity vastly outpaces the destruction capacity and that gankers simply aren't capable of affecting the entire market in such a way that it would cause inflation to occur.

And that's without considering Loyd's point above: that a lot of ganking effectively just amounts to getting rid of the competition for a given product. It will not lead to a reduction in production or an increase in prices — just a shift of market share. And even without that detail, there's just too many industrialists who have no problems with ganking for it to have the effects you describe. Industrialists, as a group, are not actually being targeted — stupid haulers are. They're rather different groups.
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#163 - 2014-08-28 02:28:00 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Angeal MacNova wrote:
Not only that but the added expense is factored in when goods are produced. So two things happen;

1. If the indy players are just in it for the isk and the loss of their ships becomes too much of an expense, they'll do something else like run missions. Less producers means inflated prices. This is compounded if the other thing these players do causes them to lose ships as this will now increase the demand also.

2. Those that do stick it out will factor the expense into their selling price and the price of all goods will increase. Again, inflation.

So while the act of ganking in itself is not bad and can be good for the economy, the gankers' favorite choice of target is bad for the games economy in both the short and long term.
…except for the simple fact that the production capacity vastly outpaces the destruction capacity and that gankers simply aren't capable of affecting the entire market in such a way that inflation would occur.

And that's without considering Loyd's point above: that a lot of ganking effectively just amounts to getting rid of the competition for a given product. It will not lead to a reduction in production or an increase in prices — just a shift of market share. And even without that detail, there's just too many industrialists who have no problems with ganking for it to have the effects you describe. Industrialists, as a group, are not actually being targeted — stupid haulers are. They're rather different groups.




Confirming that, as a starship and module producer, I'm happy to write off the costs of ganks I carry out as a necessary marketing expense.

Plus, they are fun.

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com
Angeal MacNova
Holefood Inc.
Warriors of the Blood God
#164 - 2014-08-28 02:31:21 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Angeal MacNova wrote:
Not only that but the added expense is factored in when goods are produced. So two things happen;

1. If the indy players are just in it for the isk and the loss of their ships becomes too much of an expense, they'll do something else like run missions. Less producers means inflated prices. This is compounded if the other thing these players do causes them to lose ships as this will now increase the demand also.

2. Those that do stick it out will factor the expense into their selling price and the price of all goods will increase. Again, inflation.

So while the act of ganking in itself is not bad and can be good for the economy, the gankers' favorite choice of target is bad for the games economy in both the short and long term.


…except for the simple fact that the production capacity vastly outpaces the destruction capacity and that gankers simply aren't capable of affecting the entire market in such a way that inflation would occur.

And that's without considering Loyd's point above: that a lot of ganking effectively just amounts to getting rid of the competition for a given product. It will not lead to a reduction in production or an increase in prices — just a shift of market share. And even without that detail, there's just too many industrialists who have no problems with ganking for it to have the effects you describe. Industrialists, as a group, are not actually being targeted — stupid haulers are. They're rather different groups.


Too bad that gankers have enough numbers and gank often enough to effect the market to do just that.

Skiffs have gone up and are at the highest price they've ever been. This is directly due to gankers ganking miners.

Getting rid of competition for a product is also bad for an economy. I could go into detail but I'll just state it as simple as possible.

Competitive market = good.
Monopoly = bad.

http://www.projectvaulderie.com/goodnight-sweet-prince/

http://www.projectvaulderie.com/the-untold-story/

CCP's true, butthurt, colors.

Because those who can't do themselves keep others from doing too.
45thtiger 0109
Pan-Intergalatic Business Community
#165 - 2014-08-28 02:32:30 UTC
CCP Falcon wrote:
Why should CCP provide protection for your haulage in high sec?

CONCORD offer a level of deterrent just the same as any law enforcement agency, but as with any police for they're reactive and punitive rather than proactive.

If you want your haulage to be safer, bring the guns. If you don't have any guns, sacrifice some of your profit margin and hire someone who has them to escort you.

Welcome to New Eden, you just learned a very valuable lesson in being prepared and covering your back.

Smile



I agree with the above quote well said CCP Falcon Big smile

**You Have to take the good with the bad and the bad with the good.

Welcome to EvE OnLiNe**
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#166 - 2014-08-28 02:34:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:
Confirming that, as a starship and module producer, I'm happy to write off the costs of ganks I carry out as a necessary marketing expense.

Plus, they are fun.
Welcome to a world where "cut throat business practices" are taken seriously.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#167 - 2014-08-28 02:35:24 UTC
Angeal MacNova wrote:
Too bad that gankers have enough numbers and gank often enough to effect the market to do just that.
No, they really don't. The minute number of ganks and the numerous historical cases that demonstrate the instant bounce-back of the market demonstrate this very clearly.

Quote:
Skiffs have gone up and are at the highest price they've ever been.
Uh-huh. And the numerous changes to the Skiff itself, to the underlying Procurer, and to industry as a whole definitely has nothing to do with that. Yup yup yup.

Quote:
Competitive market = good.
Monopoly = bad.
…which is why ganking is a good thing: it ensures that there can never be a monopoly.
Yang Aurilen
State War Academy
Caldari State
#168 - 2014-08-28 02:39:50 UTC
Angeal MacNova wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Angeal MacNova wrote:
Not only that but the added expense is factored in when goods are produced. So two things happen;

1. If the indy players are just in it for the isk and the loss of their ships becomes too much of an expense, they'll do something else like run missions. Less producers means inflated prices. This is compounded if the other thing these players do causes them to lose ships as this will now increase the demand also.

2. Those that do stick it out will factor the expense into their selling price and the price of all goods will increase. Again, inflation.

So while the act of ganking in itself is not bad and can be good for the economy, the gankers' favorite choice of target is bad for the games economy in both the short and long term.


…except for the simple fact that the production capacity vastly outpaces the destruction capacity and that gankers simply aren't capable of affecting the entire market in such a way that inflation would occur.

And that's without considering Loyd's point above: that a lot of ganking effectively just amounts to getting rid of the competition for a given product. It will not lead to a reduction in production or an increase in prices — just a shift of market share. And even without that detail, there's just too many industrialists who have no problems with ganking for it to have the effects you describe. Industrialists, as a group, are not actually being targeted — stupid haulers are. They're rather different groups.


Too bad that gankers have enough numbers and gank often enough to effect the market to do just that.

Skiffs have gone up and are at the highest price they've ever been. This is directly due to gankers ganking miners.

Getting rid of competition for a product is also bad for an economy. I could go into detail but I'll just state it as simple as possible.

Competitive market = good.
Monopoly = bad.


Why don't you show us that gankers destroy more catalysts and indies than the total production output of New Eden? And PLEASE do go into the details. Saying stuff like "This stuff is bad because REASONS but I won't tell you what the REASON is because it's too hard so I'll just say it's bad stuff" is not exactly a very convincing argument.

So please show us your economic data that gankers outstrip the production capacities of every player in new eden.

Post with your NPC alt main and not your main main alt!
Paranoid Loyd
#169 - 2014-08-28 02:46:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Paranoid Loyd
Derp

"There is only one authority in this game, and that my friend is violence. The supreme authority upon which all other authority is derived." ISD Max Trix

Fix the Prospect!
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#170 - 2014-08-28 02:48:33 UTC
Angeal MacNova wrote:
Competitive market = good.
Monopoly = bad.


Why is a monopoly bad for the game if it arises from player actions?

Anything done by players can be undone by other players.

Anyway, there are vanishingly few monopolizeable goods in EVE*, so a discussion of the merits of monopoly power is pretty much irrelevant.


*The barriers to entry in EVE production are shockingly low.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#171 - 2014-08-28 02:48:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Angeal MacNova wrote:
Too bad that gankers have enough numbers and gank often enough to effect the market to do just that.

Skiffs have gone up and are at the highest price they've ever been. This is directly due to gankers ganking miners.
As well as the stuff Tippia has pointed out there'll be people profiteering off the disproportionate fear of gankers. It's not hard to avoid gankers when you're mining, being at the keyboard is a major part of it, and it looks like people are learning that.

Quote:
Getting rid of competition for a product is also bad for an economy. I could go into detail but I'll just state it as simple as possible.

Competitive market = good.
Monopoly = bad.
The only way to have a monopoly is to have complete control of the product, OTEC managed it for a while and the ice interdictions caused a blip in the market. It took bitter enemies negotiating an uneasy partial truce and a trade agreement to carry OTEC off,

With regards to production specifically the fact that pretty much anybody can build a ship or module make the kind of market manipulation you're talking about unsustainable for anything but the short term.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#172 - 2014-08-28 02:49:42 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Angeal MacNova wrote:
Skiffs have gone up and are at the highest price they've ever been.
Uh-huh. And the numerous changes to the Skiff itself, to the underlying Procurer, and to industry as a whole definitely has nothing to do with that. Yup yup yup.


Arguably, some of those changes were caused by people ganking miners.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Claud Tiberius
#173 - 2014-08-28 02:51:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Claud Tiberius
OP should transport in a full-on tanked BS. There are probably a few with enough cargo space. If not, I'm sure any shield tanked ship with cargo extenders will do fine. So long as your in high sec, they wont attack you since your tank should survive long for concord to arrive Cool assuming its a small hostile fleet (it usually is). Its also quite easy to avoid them. Jump from station to station, figure out who's following you, how many there are. Bait them into attacking you and if you can, dock to be out of harms way. Let concord free the road :P

Once upon a time the Golem had a Raven hull and it looked good. Then it transformed into a plataduck. The end.
Paranoid Loyd
#174 - 2014-08-28 02:56:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Paranoid Loyd
Claud Tiberius wrote:
OP should transport in a full-on tanked BS. There are probably a few with enough cargo space. If not, I'm sure any shield tanked ship with cargo extenders will do fine. So long as your in high sec, they wont attack you since your tank should survive long for concord to arrive Cool assuming its a small hostile fleet (it usually is). Its also quite easy to avoid them. Jump from station to station, figure out who's following you, how many there are. Bait them into attacking you and if you can, dock to be out of harms way. Let concord free the road :P


Please read the thread before posting. Your recommendation would not even work let alone how idiotic of a solution it is to the problem.

Unless of course you are trolling, then good job.

"There is only one authority in this game, and that my friend is violence. The supreme authority upon which all other authority is derived." ISD Max Trix

Fix the Prospect!
Sibyyl
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#175 - 2014-08-28 02:58:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Sibyyl
Paranoid Loyd wrote:
Angeal MacNova wrote:
Skiffs have gone up and are at the highest price they've ever been. This is directly due to gankers ganking miners.


Last suicide gank August 17th, MTD I could find 5Roll


I think he might be saying they are higher price since the Skiff is the only viable Exhumer. Higher demand = higher price?

Looks like price jumped 50M ISK (33%) since April.


Angeal, if you see a product earning 50M more a pop in the market, why don't you manufacture and sell them?


Edit: Forums replace ampersands with silly garbage, so I replace the eve-marketdata.com link with a goo.gl link.

Joffy Aulx-Gao for CSM. Fix links and OGB. Ban stabs from plexes. Fulfill karmic justice.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#176 - 2014-08-28 03:00:43 UTC
CCP Falcon wrote:
Why should CCP provide protection for your haulage in high sec?

CONCORD offer a level of deterrent just the same as any law enforcement agency, but as with any police for they're reactive and punitive rather than proactive.

If you want your haulage to be safer, bring the guns. If you don't have any guns, sacrifice some of your profit margin and hire someone who has them to escort you.

Welcome to New Eden, you just learned a very valuable lesson in being prepared and covering your back.

Smile



This is why I play EVE.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Paranoid Loyd
#177 - 2014-08-28 03:03:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Paranoid Loyd
Sibyyl wrote:
I think he might be saying they are higher price since the Skiff is the only viable Exhumer.


You're probably right, I was distracted by a target in-game. Twisted

"There is only one authority in this game, and that my friend is violence. The supreme authority upon which all other authority is derived." ISD Max Trix

Fix the Prospect!
Sibyyl
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#178 - 2014-08-28 03:07:56 UTC
Paranoid Loyd wrote:


You're probably right, I was distracted by a target in-game. Twisted


I hope one day I grow up to be a Paranoid Loyd.

Joffy Aulx-Gao for CSM. Fix links and OGB. Ban stabs from plexes. Fulfill karmic justice.
Michael1995
Lazerhawks
L A Z E R H A W K S
#179 - 2014-08-28 03:15:59 UTC
Duchess Amarrian wrote:
Last night my hauling ship got blown sky high. I was flying a prorator and doing some deliveries. The person that shot me down organised it really well by setting up contracts and sucking in the person accepting the contract. I wont go into detail here. As i was making the delivery and just 1 second from being docked into station my ship got blown sky high. From what ? a minmitar Battleship that was so many km's away. It took 2 people to stop me.

I keep hearing that ccp wil be doing something about this. I've just had enough of it. Seriously I'm trying to find some fun in this game and seeing that the others always have the edge over miners and haulers in high sec is a real joke. I don't mind if it had happened in low sec and null but when your playing by ccp rules to me it seems there are no rules and high sec is really a joke.

At the very least give miners and haulers some big guns like you give others and maybe will balance things well.

The two that got me are "Luukje" and "Natural CloneKiller". I put up a big bounty on Luk so enjoy your hunting.

cheers





You should invest in insta-docks.

Selling WH CFC Standings 10b/month for +10 with: Lazerhawks, Hard Knocks, Overwatch This, Many Vacancies, Golden Showers, Friendly Probes, Isogen Memed.

Join up for swag C3 Gila/Osprey ratting fleets daily! We also rent C2s out with CV effect!
Angeal MacNova
Holefood Inc.
Warriors of the Blood God
#180 - 2014-08-28 03:25:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Angeal MacNova
I've done mining. Even trained up into exhumers. I couldn't do it for very long. Way too boring for my taste. I'd rather just run missions. I do, however, want to get in a position to just manufacture my own gear. Reprocess loot for the minerals, use bounties and mission rewards to buy the T2 mats and make it myself.

Being at the keyboard is a fallacy. Doesn't make a difference. All it'll do is prevent a podding. If you don't bother with implants and don't have a super high SP, then this is a trivial cost. Actually it's a bonus since you'll have a kill right. Now you can gank the ganker without concord involvement.

http://www.projectvaulderie.com/goodnight-sweet-prince/

http://www.projectvaulderie.com/the-untold-story/

CCP's true, butthurt, colors.

Because those who can't do themselves keep others from doing too.