These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

High Sec Hauling/Mining Kills - TY CCP for No Protection

First post First post
Author
virm pasuul
Academy of the Unseen Arts
#861 - 2014-08-31 20:59:20 UTC
If you want to bring the RNG into ganks, how about concord only turn up 90% of the time, the other 10% they are at the doughnut shop and don't bother.
There you go RNG in ganks.
Lilliana Stelles
#862 - 2014-08-31 21:01:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Lilliana Stelles
virm pasuul wrote:
If you want to bring the RNG into ganks, how about concord only turn up 90% of the time, the other 10% they are at the doughnut shop and don't bother.
There you go RNG in ganks.


Honestly that's *not* a bad idea.

Better yet, make it reflective of the sec status of the system.

Not a forum alt. 

Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#863 - 2014-08-31 21:02:44 UTC
Lilliana Stelles wrote:
Benny Ohu wrote:
snip


Gotta run for an hour or so and I don't really have time to address this, but I'd like to point out:

I think you're confused on the difference between risk and cost.

From the dictionary.

Risk: the possibility that something bad or unpleasant (such as an injury or a loss) will happen (this doesn't apply to suicide ganking as the consequence is guaranteed).
Cost: something that is lost, damaged, or given up in order to achieve or get something
The real risk for highsec gankers is that people finally learn to fly their internet spaceships. Like Red Frog, that has less than 0.1% losses.

I'll admit that it's quite a low risk given the current incompetence level, but that's not ccp's fault, is it?

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!

RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#864 - 2014-08-31 21:04:13 UTC
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
I'll admit that it's quite a low risk given the current incompetence level, but that's not ccp's fault, is it?


That's before you take into account shipments of PyrE, of course.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon

Benny Ohu
Chaotic Tranquility
#865 - 2014-08-31 21:08:21 UTC
Lilliana Stelles wrote:
Benny Ohu wrote:
snip


Gotta run for an hour or so and I don't really have time to address this, but I'd like to point out:

I think you're confused on the difference between risk and cost.

From the dictionary.

Risk: the possibility that something bad or unpleasant (such as an injury or a loss) will happen (this doesn't apply to suicide ganking as the consequence is guaranteed).
Cost: something that is lost, damaged, or given up in order to achieve or get something

maybe the dictionary of farts says suicide ganking is an exception (it totally doesn't i wrote that book with my butt) but it's not

risk is a combination of the chance of something happening and the value or importance of what's at risk

also suicide ganking still doesn't have a one-hundred percent chance of success so it's still a risk even by that fetid definition
Benny Ohu
Chaotic Tranquility
#866 - 2014-08-31 21:11:14 UTC
actually come to think of it a scratch'n'sniff dictionary is the best idea ever

brb gonna get rich
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#867 - 2014-08-31 22:25:27 UTC
DJentropy Ovaert wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:
If bumping is ever made a CONCORD offense, I will invest in salvage drones and MTUs and camp the Jita undock.


Which is (again) why I suggested that Bumping should not be a CONCORD offense, rather that victims of a (failed) gank attempt should have a 60 second immunity from Bumping once CONCORD arrives on the scene.



Awesome. So from now on, when I want any ship to be immune to bumping - I simply create a throwaway trial account and log in, shoot my freighter in a free Ibis, and enjoy 60 seconds of being immune to game mechanics.

I can't see anyone abusing that :P


It's a lot less abusable than CODE bumping freighters to allow 2,3,7, or 15 waves of the EXACT SAME gankers to kill a ship while CONCORD stands at the scene eating donuts.
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#868 - 2014-08-31 22:26:40 UTC
DJentropy Ovaert wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
Luckily I haven't lost a ship at all! I simply present again the absurd situation caused by the current game mechanics. "So you find it comprehensible that you and your CODE buddies would show up, try to gank an Orca, get it down to 20% structure, have CONCORD come and kill you and give you an aggression timer...and then do nothing as your buddies sit there for 15 minutes bumping it so it can't escape, with CONCORD at the scene, and then watch as the exact same gankers come right back and finish the job? Seriously? That even conceivably makes sense to you? I refuse to believe that anyone could find that a reasonable game mechanic in highsec."


Copying the same post over and over doesn't make it true. I addressed all of those points.

Laws in different jurisdictions are different. New Eden has different laws than the real world, and New Eden's capsuleer police (CONCORD) have an extremely limited, reactionary role which fits the laws of New Eden.

If you perform an act of illegal aggression in HS, CONCORD destroys your ship, docks you sec status, and gives you a 15min time out. That is their entire function. Their function has nothing to do with protecting anyone, simply with creating cost for illegal aggression in HS.

This is how the game was always intended to work and is how it works now.


This is the problem with Veers, and something that I have not figured out how to work around. You bring up valid points, he simply ignores them and repeats himself. Over and over again. It's depressing.


Her point were not valid...she simply failed to grasp the basic issues and kept repeating the same talking points. Keep trying DJ.
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#869 - 2014-08-31 22:32:13 UTC
And the fact still remains that for CONCORD to sit there and allow bumpers to pin down a gank target, while successive waves of the exact same gankers kill it is assinine, and would not be allowed by any conceivable CONCORD like force. It's obviously inconsistent with the purpose of CONCORD, and should be fixed.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#870 - 2014-08-31 22:42:11 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
And the fact still remains that for CONCORD to sit there and allow bumpers to pin down a gank target, while successive waves of the exact same gankers kill it is assinine, and would not be allowed by any conceivable CONCORD like force. It's obviously inconsistent with the purpose of CONCORD, and should be fixed.


It's perfectly consistent with CONCORD, their purpose is to stop aggression, and they do it with a device that is installed in all capsuleer ships that allows to them to detect the activation of offensive modules.

Offensive modules.

Not turning on your engines.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Nitchiu
Simply Boring
#871 - 2014-08-31 22:47:32 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
And the fact still remains that for CONCORD to sit there and allow bumpers to pin down a gank target, while successive waves of the exact same gankers kill it is assinine, and would not be allowed by any conceivable CONCORD like force. It's obviously inconsistent with the purpose of CONCORD, and should be fixed.


Seems consistant to me... no one is shooting anyone so they just wait and eat donuts until someone opens fire. Then they drop on you. Capsuleers bumping Capsuleers isn't gonna bother the empires. No one cares what they do as long as shots aren't fired.

As for the actual game mechanic. First the freighter gets ganked and survives... then the bumpers stick around till the criminal tag wears off for the ganker? And in all this time the freighter can't get anyone to help him? I appreciate that you want to play the game solo or afk but that's like playing WoW and leveling to level 90 without doing anything but gathering herbs. You can do it but why would you do it and then complain that herb gathering doesn't give enough XP?
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#872 - 2014-08-31 22:49:57 UTC
Nitchiu wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
And the fact still remains that for CONCORD to sit there and allow bumpers to pin down a gank target, while successive waves of the exact same gankers kill it is assinine, and would not be allowed by any conceivable CONCORD like force. It's obviously inconsistent with the purpose of CONCORD, and should be fixed.


Seems consistant to me... no one is shooting anyone so they just wait and eat donuts until someone opens fire. Then they drop on you. Capsuleers bumping Capsuleers isn't gonna bother the empires. No one cares what they do as long as shots aren't fired.

As for the actual game mechanic. First the freighter gets ganked and survives... then the bumpers stick around till the criminal tag wears off for the ganker? And in all this time the freighter can't get anyone to help him? I appreciate that you want to play the game solo or afk but that's like playing WoW and leveling to level 90 without doing anything but gathering herbs. You can do it but why would you do it and then complain that herb gathering doesn't give enough XP?


Bumpers are preventing the gank victim from leaving the system with the clear intent of letting their friends come back and hill him. To have the police sitting there and not intervening is downright insane. And it's highsec - you don't need to beg friends to protect you from criminals, that's what CONCORD is for. If you don't want that mechanic, go to nullsec.
Nitchiu
Simply Boring
#873 - 2014-08-31 22:54:22 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
Nitchiu wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
And the fact still remains that for CONCORD to sit there and allow bumpers to pin down a gank target, while successive waves of the exact same gankers kill it is assinine, and would not be allowed by any conceivable CONCORD like force. It's obviously inconsistent with the purpose of CONCORD, and should be fixed.


Seems consistant to me... no one is shooting anyone so they just wait and eat donuts until someone opens fire. Then they drop on you. Capsuleers bumping Capsuleers isn't gonna bother the empires. No one cares what they do as long as shots aren't fired.

As for the actual game mechanic. First the freighter gets ganked and survives... then the bumpers stick around till the criminal tag wears off for the ganker? And in all this time the freighter can't get anyone to help him? I appreciate that you want to play the game solo or afk but that's like playing WoW and leveling to level 90 without doing anything but gathering herbs. You can do it but why would you do it and then complain that herb gathering doesn't give enough XP?


Bumpers are preventing the gank victim from leaving the system with the clear intent of letting their friends come back and hill him. To have the police sitting there and not intervening is downright insane. And it's highsec - you don't need to beg friends to protect you from criminals, that's what CONCORD is for. If you don't want that mechanic, go to nullsec.


More like CONCORD is to keep the capsuleers from getting too badly out of hand. Notice how they don't even pod the capsuleer. That means that unless your activities fall into very specific guidelines they don't care. They are there to give a slap on the wrist to the capsuleer and then slap him on the wrist if he does it again.
Christopher AET
Lethal Injection Inc.
Pandemic Legion
#874 - 2014-08-31 23:04:15 UTC
Hello people who are dissatisfied. I am here to provide a step by step guide for solving all your woes.

1-Determine you dislike the state of suicide ganking in hisec

2-Move out of hisec


Wow that was hard!

I drain ducks of their moisture for sustenance.

Turelus
Utassi Security
#875 - 2014-08-31 23:13:56 UTC
CCP Falcon wrote:
Captain StringfellowHawk wrote:
CCP Falcon wrote:
Dorian Wylde wrote:
Try again.


Don't need to buddy, what I said is fact. Sorry if you don't agree. Smile




This is the ROLE I wish to see CCP in. Stand your Ground, You handle the game aspect and let the players run as they should in a Sandbox game. Whether we kick the castle down or build it, it's up to us. I am so happy finally seeing CCP and a very respect Dev ontop of that taking a Solid stance for once. Actually the last few "releases" I have seen them stand their ground and I love it. Start dealing with everyone and not Catering to the Tearfilled Entitled.


Okay, so what follows is entirely my personal opinion.

It's not a case of not "catering to the tearfilled entitled", it's a case of us staying true to the core of what EVE was built on.

Some of the people complaining in this thread have valid points about the fact that they don't feel safe. Simple fact of the matter is, that you're not suppose to feel safe in New Eden.

Eve is not a game for the faint hearted. It's a game that will chew you up and spit you out in the blink of an eye if you even think about letting your guard down or becoming complacent.

While every other MMO starts off with an intro that tells you you're going to be the savior of the realm, holds your hand, protects you, nurtures your development and ultimately guides you to your destiny as a hero along with several other million players who've had the exact same experience, EVE assaults you from the second you begin to play after you create a character, spitting you out into a universe that under the surface, is so complex that it's enough to make your head explode.

The entire design is based around being harsh, vicious, relentless, hostile and cold. It's about action and reaction, and the story that unfolds as you experience these two things.

True, we're working hard to lower the bar of entry so that more players can enjoy EVE and can get into the game. Our NPE (New Player Experience) is challenging, and we're trying to improve it to better prepare rookies for what lies out there, but when you start to play eve, you'll always start out as the little fish in the big pond.

The only way to grow is to voraciously consume what's around you, and its your choice whether that happens to be New Eden's abundant natural resources, or the other people who're also fighting their way to the top.

EVE is a playing experience like no other, where every action or reaction resonates through a single universe and is felt by players from all corners of the word. There are no shards here, no mirror universes, no instances and very few rules. If you stumble across something valuable, then chances are someone else already knows where you are, or is working their way toward you and you better be prepared to fight for what you've discovered.

EVE will test you from the outset, from the very second you undock and glimpse the stars, and will take pleasure from sorting those who can survive from those who'd rather curl up and perish.

EVE will let you fight until you collapse, then let you struggle to your feet, exhausted from the effort. Then when you can see the light at the end of the tunnel it'll kick you flat on your ass in the mud again and ask you why you deserve to be standing. It'll test you against every other individual playing at some point or another, and it'll ask for answers.

Give it an answer and maybe it'll let you up again, long enough to gather your thoughts. After a few more steps you're on the ground again and it's asking more questions.

EVE is designed to be harsh, it's designed to be challenging, and it's designed to be so deep and complex that it should fascinate and terrify you at the same time.

Corporation, Alliances and coalitions of tens of thousands have risen and fallen on these basic principles, and every one of those thousands of people has their own unique story to tell about how it affected them and what they experienced.

That's the beauty of EVE. Action and reaction. Emergence.

Welcome to the most frightening virtual playground you'll ever experience.

..... sod it... FALCON FOR LEAD GAME DESIGNER! P

Turelus CEO Utassi Security

Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#876 - 2014-08-31 23:16:52 UTC
Christopher AET wrote:
Hello people who are dissatisfied. I am here to provide a step by step guide for solving all your woes.

1-Determine you dislike the state of suicide ganking in hisec

2-Move out of hisec


Wow that was hard!



Gee thanks....how original. I would actually prefer to intelligently discuss the reasons why I dislike the current mechanics, and suggest improvements to make the mechanics consistent with the principle of highsec. I'm the first guy to lolz when i see a Wreathe ganked with 1.5 bil in cargo inside. What did not make me lolz was seeing a well fit Orca ( 300k+ ehp v. Void) survive an initial CODE gank attempt with 20% structure left, get bumped by some CODe alts for 15 minutes with CONCORD sitting there doing nothing, rendering the Orca unable to warp off despite its bets efforts, and then seeing the exact same gankers reappear and finish off the job. To me that is a "full stop. This does not make sense" moment, and so instead of "mov[ing] out of hisec," I decided to raise the issue, and suggest a worthwile change.

I do realize that people like DJ deeply oppose this, since it will make it harder to blow things up and generate tears. Alas as far as DJ goes, I've come to doubt the genuineness of his statements, for as the great Upton Sinclair put it "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it."
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#877 - 2014-08-31 23:21:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Veers Belvar wrote:
I would actually prefer to intelligently discuss the reasons why I dislike the current mechanics, and suggest improvements to make the mechanics consistent with the principle of highsec.
Can you explain how they are inconsistent at the moment? What is this “principle of highsec” you believe they should adhere to?

Quote:
What did not make me lolz was seeing a well fit Orca ( 300k+ ehp v. Void) survive an initial CODE gank attempt with 20% structure left, get bumped by some CODe alts for 15 minutes with CONCORD sitting there doing nothing, rendering the Orca unable to warp off despite its bets efforts
Good news: what you describe has never actually happened for the simple reason that it can't happen. You can keep repeating this nonsense as much as you like, but it will not change the fact that you are complaining about something that does not exist in the game, and you're using this hallucination as a incoherent argument for changing that game.

This is why I keep asking you to use actual facts. So, again: attempt #2! — GO!

Veers Belvar wrote:
CONCORD most certainly is a police force. Per the Eve Wiki "CONCORD is branched into numerous divisions, each of which handles a certain aspect of the empire relationship. Of these divisions the CAD (Commerce Assessment Department), which oversees inter-stellar trade agreements and regulations; and DED (Directive Enforcement Department), which oversees policing in space, are by far the largest and most influential."
…and they're still not a police force. The page doesn't even include the word “police” — that's how much they're not a police force. Just because you oversee the policing of something something does not make you a police force (at best, that makes you a Justice Department). In fact, the game already has a police — CONCORD isn't it.

Would you like to call this attempt (and strike) #2 and go direct to #3, or would you like to actually provide a proper answer.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#878 - 2014-08-31 23:22:10 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
I would actually prefer to intelligently discuss the reasons why I dislike the current mechanics, and suggest improvements to make the mechanics consistent with the principle of highsec.


Why would you bother, when a literal developer has come in here over several successive days to tell you that everything you think is wrong according to CCP?


Quote:
I decided to raise the issue, and suggest a worthwile change.


No, what you are doing is suggesting that an explicitly non hostile act be made into something that will get your ship destroyed.

Oh, and as for your Sinclair quote. That is hilarious coming from someone defending afk hauling with every breath.

You can't figure out that suicide ganking, and destruction of assets in general, is quite literally vital to the existence of the game, because that means that you have to consider that each and every loss of those losers who can't figure out how to bring webs for their hauler is just and necessary.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Lilliana Stelles
#879 - 2014-08-31 23:26:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Lilliana Stelles
Veers Belvar wrote:
Christopher AET wrote:
Hello people who are dissatisfied. I am here to provide a step by step guide for solving all your woes.

1-Determine you dislike the state of suicide ganking in hisec

2-Move out of hisec


Wow that was hard!



Gee thanks....how original. I would actually prefer to intelligently discuss the reasons why I dislike the current mechanics, and suggest improvements to make the mechanics consistent with the principle of highsec. I'm the first guy to lolz when i see a Wreathe ganked with 1.5 bil in cargo inside. What did not make me lolz was seeing a well fit Orca ( 300k+ ehp v. Void) survive an initial CODE gank attempt with 20% structure left, get bumped by some CODe alts for 15 minutes with CONCORD sitting there doing nothing, rendering the Orca unable to warp off despite its bets efforts, and then seeing the exact same gankers reappear and finish off the job. To me that is a "full stop. This does not make sense" moment, and so instead of "mov[ing] out of hisec," I decided to raise the issue, and suggest a worthwile change.

I do realize that people like DJ deeply oppose this, since it will make it harder to blow things up and generate tears. Alas as far as DJ goes, I've come to doubt the genuineness of his statements, for as the great Upton Sinclair put it "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it."


Wait what, how do you let this happen. I've been bumped in a freighter before. It's not that hard to get out.
Just turn orca/freigther around, face away from the gate. Get bumped, then use that velocity instawarp to something in the direction you're bumped. Asteriod belt, station, gate, whatever.

Almost always there's something directly opposite the gate, in the direction you're being bumped.

Not a forum alt. 

Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#880 - 2014-08-31 23:31:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Rowells
Veers Belvar wrote:
And it's highsec - you don't need to beg friends to protect you from criminals, that's what CONCORD is for. If you don't want that mechanic, go to nullsec.

CONCORD is the consequence, not the protection.