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High Sec Hauling/Mining Kills - TY CCP for No Protection

First post First post
Author
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#421 - 2014-08-29 16:44:38 UTC
Paranoid Loyd wrote:
E-2C Hawkeye wrote:
Haulers need the same option to fit tank or cargo. Should they have a survivable tank fit against reasonable gank squad and they chose not to use it then that on them.


Are you really trying to argue it's not like this already?
Some people won't be happy until their haulers are produced by Polaris, and they'll still whine because there's a 0.1% hole in the resists.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

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Carlos Brutus
Limitless Inc. Holdings
#422 - 2014-08-29 16:52:37 UTC
CCP Falcon wrote:
Tam Althor wrote:
Remember CCP Falcon, the level of protection that concord provides players is the same level of job protection you have when the high sec players decide to quit. Will you survive the next 20% layoff when it happens?


I love EVE and the core of what the game stands for. That's why I've been dedicated to it and its community for over 11 years now.

Risk vs Reward is a huge part of that.

Honestly, if that changed, and the game started to soften out and cater to those who want to have their hand held all the way through their gameplay experience, I'd rather not be working on the project regardless of how many subscribers we had, than sell out the core principles that New Eden was built on.

That's a sentiment that I hear a lot around the office, because we are all invested in what makes New Eden so compelling - The dark, gritty, hard reality beneath the pretty ships and nebulas.

EVE is built on the core principle that you are never 100% safe, no matter where you go or what you do. When you interact with another player, you roll the dice on whether they're going to screw you over or not. That's a massive part of the social engineering behind the very basic underpinnings of the EVE Universe.

Sorry, but your scaremongering counter argument makes no sense to me and carries no weight Smile






Oh yes, you're never 100% safe unless you're a scammer sitting in dock all day. Funny how that one always slips past the radar.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
#423 - 2014-08-29 16:58:11 UTC
CCP Falcon wrote:
If you want your haulage to be safer, bring the guns. If you don't have any guns, sacrifice some of your profit margin and hire someone who has them to escort you.
guns are pretty useless in high sec. Since you can't start firing until they do without getting concorded, you can still see your hauler volleyed off the field before you can reduce their ganking squad enough to save it. And with sec tags, gankers don't really need to put time or effort in to keep themselves high enough to avoid being valid targets for a preemptive hit, they simply spend some of their victims isk on tags and instantly become "good" again.

Make kill rights so they only get used up once that killright has been used to kill the pirate with the equivalent value of the ship they killed to earn it (so if you kill a billion isk of ship, it can be repeatedly used until it's cost you a billion isk), and guns will be back in play.

CCP Falcon wrote:
because we are all invested in what makes New Eden so compelling - The dark, gritty, hard reality beneath the pretty ships and nebulas.
It's not though, is it? It's not at all dark and gritty, it's just that people can run up to noobs and smash their heads in in a single hit. It's no more dark and gritty than a PvP WoW server.

EVE is moving to a place where there are no more consequences. Take the sec tags for example. Now you can run around ganking like crazy, wait 30 days for your kill rights to drop off, pay a bunch of isk to jump your sec status back up instantly and shazzam you are no longer a pirate.

And part of it is that too much focus has gone into making people vulnerable. Take corps for example. Awoxing being so easy to pull off and the lack of benefits of being in a player run corp means there's no real reason to move out of an NPC corp in high sec. It would be better to give people more opportunities to choose to put themselves at risk because it's worth doing. Making it too tough then just saying "tough luck" whenever someone tries and fails isn't really good encouragement to try again.

I would love EVE to be a dark and gritty hardcore game, but that's really not what it is.

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Carlos Brutus
Limitless Inc. Holdings
#424 - 2014-08-29 17:01:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Carlos Brutus
CCP Falcon wrote:
Syn Shi wrote:
There is no risk to gank in hi-sec. The ships they use are so cheap and easy to replace the whole risk thing has been circumvented.

Ship blows up, so what...just buy another.

Everyone knows your name, no probelm just buy another character.

The game is so saturated with isk that isk has removed the risk factor.


Tell that to all the guys who suicide gank someone, and end up making a heavy loss because everything they wanted to loot gets destroyed in the ship destruction.

Smile


Which is never a problem if the cargo is a scam cargo to begin with and the collateral goes back to the contract originator, who might even be part of the gank.

Are you paid to keep the community healthy or to engage in snark contests with players who disagree with aspects of the game? It's hard to tell these days. Seems pretty clear you're playing to your crowd of posterior cleaners. It's not as if the forum lacks for people to defend the harsh dark crapfest that is Eve. Obviously your real mission in your job is to score points on newbies who don't quite understand the game mechanics or don't agree with them. Good luck with that. There will always be players in Eve who hate ganking and scamming and the combination of the two and neither you nor anyone else will ever change that.

It's a pretty sad game when the developers take to the forums to tell part of the player base that they're stupid ("it's not rocket science") and to make ridiculous comparisons to real life police, who, by the way, do have crime prevention programs and actual punishment for criminals. Maybe you need to go back to moderating the forums rather than trolling for likes.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#425 - 2014-08-29 17:13:55 UTC
E-2C Hawkeye wrote:
They don’t need more help they need more options.
They have every option in the book. How on earth do they need more?!

Quote:
A hauler should not need 1-3 more people or alts to solo haul.
Then a ganker should not need 5–20 more people to gank either, deal? Same goes for the miners — they have plenty of options and all of them require more than one person to gank, so I suppose you're suggesting that all exhumers and barges get nerfed back to more reasonable levels too?

Lucas Kell wrote:
guns are pretty useless in high sec.
No. Just no. They work just as well there as they do everywhere else. Gankers, as a rule, can be shot without being concorded as it is, and they have to resort to such fragile ships to get any kind of damage output that, unlike the haulers, they are very easy to volley off the field. There's a reason why high-DPS destroyers are the ganker tool of the trade rather than any kind of volley monster.

Quote:
Make kill rights so they only get used up once that killright has been used to kill the pirate with the equivalent value of the ship they killed to earn it (so if you kill a billion isk of ship, it can be repeatedly used until it's cost you a billion isk), and guns will be back in play.
That's not what kill rights are for. You are confusing two completely unconnected mechanics: one is the right to not have CONCORD mess with you and another is the ability to enforce a cost on other players.

Quote:
EVE is moving to a place where there are no more consequences.
No, it really isn't. Between kill rights, new crimewatch, harsher sec penalties, massively increased costs, and more mechanics to bring the fight to the gankers if they bother you, the consequences have never been higher. Sec tags makes a very minute difference to one of those things and were frankly needed to balance out the massive increases in penalties introduced over the years.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#426 - 2014-08-29 17:17:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Carlos Brutus wrote:
CCP Falcon wrote:
Tell that to all the guys who suicide gank someone, and end up making a heavy loss because everything they wanted to loot gets destroyed in the ship destruction.

Smile

...snip...
It's not as if the forum lacks for people to defend the harsh dark crapfest that is Eve.
If it's such a crapfest, why are you playing it? It must have some appeal or redeeming quality.
Quote:
Obviously your real mission in your job is to score points on newbies who don't quite understand the game mechanics or don't agree with them. Good luck with that.
I'd say his job is to keep it real and to correct misconceptions about the nature of the game, he does it pretty well too.
Quote:
There will always be players in Eve who hate ganking and scamming and the combination of the two and neither you nor anyone else will ever change that.
Maybe they should play a game more suited to their wants then....
Quote:
It's a pretty sad game when the developers take to the forums to tell part of the player base that they're stupid ("it's not rocket science") and to make ridiculous comparisons to real life police, who, by the way, do have crime prevention programs and actual punishment for criminals.
Yet despite RL police having crime prevention programs and "actual" punishment for criminals, we still have crime Shocked * Avoiding getting ganked isn't rocket science, you just have to use the tools at your disposal in the correct manner.

If anything Concord has a far better record than any real life police department, it's impossible to evade Concord.

*I'll let Jenn aSide weigh in on that aspect if he wants to, he's actually a RL cop.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#427 - 2014-08-29 17:18:16 UTC
Carlos Brutus wrote:
Oh yes, you're never 100% safe unless you're a scammer sitting in dock all day. Funny how that one always slips past the radar.

Scammers have exactly the risks and rewards other players give them, and nothing more.
Funny how people refuse to take responsibility for what they willingly hand out, and then come back to complain someone has they have exactly what they've given him.
Ned Thomas
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#428 - 2014-08-29 17:22:45 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Carlos Brutus wrote:
Oh yes, you're never 100% safe unless you're a scammer sitting in dock all day. Funny how that one always slips past the radar.

Scammers have exactly the risks and rewards other players give them, and nothing more.
Funny how people refuse to take responsibility for what they willingly hand out, and then come back to complain someone has they have exactly what they've given him.



Well, the scammer has the extra risk of people not being greedpffft sorry couldn't say it with a straight face.
E-2C Hawkeye
State War Academy
Caldari State
#429 - 2014-08-29 17:30:16 UTC
Paranoid Loyd wrote:
E-2C Hawkeye wrote:
Haulers need the same option to fit tank or cargo. Should they have a survivable tank fit against reasonable gank squad and they chose not to use it then that on them.


Are you really trying to argue it's not like this already? There are many more options for hauling than there are for barges.

I am saying there are some but not enough options to fit tank. It is so easy and cost to little to gank freighters atm that people are doing it on empty freighters for the lulz.

Ganking should always be possible but it should come at a greater price and with greater consequences and not with the trivial shat we have now where alts are trained and disposed of like a revolving door.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#430 - 2014-08-29 17:33:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
E-2C Hawkeye wrote:
I am saying there are some but not enough options to fit tank. It is so easy and cost to little to gank freighters atm that people are doing it on empty freighters for the lulz.
It has never been more difficult. It has never been as rare. Costs have only ever gone up. So where on earth do you get the idea that it should be even more difficult and costly? If it's so easy and cheap, why aren't everyone doing it? Why are so few killed? Why is it so ridiculously safe to fly a freighter?

Quote:
Ganking should always be possible but it should come at a greater price and with greater consequences
Why?

Quote:
not with the trivial shat we have now where alts are trained and disposed of like a revolving door.
Do you have any proof whatsoever to suggest that anything even remotely like that is actually happening?
ashley Eoner
#431 - 2014-08-29 17:37:09 UTC  |  Edited by: ashley Eoner
Lucas Kell wrote:
CCP Falcon wrote:
If you want your haulage to be safer, bring the guns. If you don't have any guns, sacrifice some of your profit margin and hire someone who has them to escort you.
guns are pretty useless in high sec. Since you can't start firing until they do without getting concorded, you can still see your hauler volleyed off the field before you can reduce their ganking squad enough to save it. And with sec tags, gankers don't really need to put time or effort in to keep themselves high enough to avoid being valid targets for a preemptive hit, they simply spend some of their victims isk on tags and instantly become "good" again.

Make kill rights so they only get used up once that killright has been used to kill the pirate with the equivalent value of the ship they killed to earn it (so if you kill a billion isk of ship, it can be repeatedly used until it's cost you a billion isk), and guns will be back in play.

CCP Falcon wrote:
because we are all invested in what makes New Eden so compelling - The dark, gritty, hard reality beneath the pretty ships and nebulas.
It's not though, is it? It's not at all dark and gritty, it's just that people can run up to noobs and smash their heads in in a single hit. It's no more dark and gritty than a PvP WoW server.

EVE is moving to a place where there are no more consequences. Take the sec tags for example. Now you can run around ganking like crazy, wait 30 days for your kill rights to drop off, pay a bunch of isk to jump your sec status back up instantly and shazzam you are no longer a pirate.

And part of it is that too much focus has gone into making people vulnerable. Take corps for example. Awoxing being so easy to pull off and the lack of benefits of being in a player run corp means there's no real reason to move out of an NPC corp in high sec. It would be better to give people more opportunities to choose to put themselves at risk because it's worth doing. Making it too tough then just saying "tough luck" whenever someone tries and fails isn't really good encouragement to try again.

I would love EVE to be a dark and gritty hardcore game, but that's really not what it is.
Indeed it always cracks me up hard when people try to pretend that eve is dark and gritty and HARDCORE YO!!! The reality is that a pvp WoW server is just as dark and gritty and almost as hardcore. In eve I can only lose a ship if I undock really while in WoW I can be ganked in the auction house of the biggest city for my faction. If I die in eve I spend a few isk and I'm back exactly where I was before. Only if I'm flying a t3 do I lose experience or anything. Meanwhile old school korean MMos like Lineage 2 had FFA pvp everywhere (except some sections of some towns) and when you died you would lose weeks of grinding even if your gear is cheap and you're not max level .


Ganking is so easy these days thanks to the buffs that I'm surprised it took this long before people started complaining about freighter ganks.



EDIT : Part of the problem is that some of the freighters are dropping billions which is enough to cover the costs of ganking empty freighters for a full day. Only need 10-20 catas/talos/brutix in a mix. You don't even really have to spend the big bucks either. A mix of catas with some talos to bump the dps a little is more then enough. Hell 12 decently trained catas can do +250k damage in .05. Thats a super cheap fleet for ganking.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#432 - 2014-08-29 17:40:03 UTC
ashley Eoner wrote:
Ganking is so easy these days thanks to the buffs
What buffs?
If it's so easy, why is it so rare?
ashley Eoner
#433 - 2014-08-29 17:50:17 UTC  |  Edited by: ashley Eoner
Tippia wrote:
ashley Eoner wrote:
Ganking is so easy these days thanks to the buffs
What buffs?
If it's so easy, why is it so rare?

Hello cata thrasher buffs? The introduction of BS guns on BC platforms? You don't remember the olden days when you had to spend real isk on a BS to gank something big.

Ganks are a daily event in highsec.


I imagine there'd be more ganks if more people realized how easy it is to do.
Crumplecorn
Eve Cluster Explorations
#434 - 2014-08-29 17:53:15 UTC
It's funny that people are saying EVE isn't hardcore because it's too easy to kill people.

Interesting also that making the game more hardcore apparently involves harsher penalties for gankers, while the people dumb enough to get themselves killed are apparently perfectly balaced as they are.


Someone mentioned games which have SP loss for any death. How about we add that to EVE - for everyone. I'm sure AFK freighter pilots would love that.

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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#435 - 2014-08-29 17:55:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
ashley Eoner wrote:
Hello cata thrasher buffs? The introduction of BS guns on BC platforms?
You mean the things that not even managed to maintain the status quo in the face of the massive nerfs? The ones that led to ganks becoming more and more rare over time? No, that was not a buff — those were nerfs that would have been downright insulting unless the gankers were given something in the way of compensation.

Quote:
Ganks are a daily event in highsec.
So in other words: laughably rare.
Xuixien
Solar Winds Trade Conglomerate
#436 - 2014-08-29 18:18:20 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
EVE is moving to a place where there are no more consequences.


So the only people who shouldn't have consequences for their choices are HiSec bears? Got it.

Lucas Kell wrote:
I would love EVE to be a dark and gritty hardcore game, but that's really not what it is.


It is. Maybe you've just gotten used to it.

Epic Space Cat, Horsegirl, Philanthropist

ashley Eoner
#437 - 2014-08-29 18:26:20 UTC  |  Edited by: ashley Eoner
Tippia wrote:
ashley Eoner wrote:
Hello cata thrasher buffs? The introduction of BS guns on BC platforms?
You mean the things that not even managed to maintain the status quo in the face of the massive nerfs? The ones that led to ganks becoming more and more rare over time? No, that was not a buff — those were nerfs that would have been downright insulting unless the gankers were given something in the way of compensation.

Quote:
Ganks are a daily event in highsec.
So in other words: laughably rare.

What massive nerfs?

The change to insurance? That's minor.

Can't boomerang anymore? Come on that was clearly abusing the system.

Can't break concord like before? THat too was an exploit and you know it.


Less and less? Are you even playing the same game or are you just sticking to some sort of propaganda plan to get ganking buffed even more?

Ganking is more common then ever. I remember mining through all the hulkageddons and not only did I never get killed I rarely saw a ganker. Today I fly out to a belt and there's a good chance i"ll have a ganker come through unless I'm hiding in a dead end out far from markets mining crap ore for terrible isk per hour.

Uedama (sp) aufay etc are sites of daily ganking.


How is something that occurs daily in a variety of systems suddenly considered "laughably rare"??
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#438 - 2014-08-29 18:35:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
ashley Eoner wrote:
What massive nerfs?
Numerous CONCORD buffs. Numerous target buffs. Numerous price increases. Numerous increases in penalties. Huge increases in the manpower and time required. Significant increases in the difficulty of actually cashing in on the kill. Vastly improved means of striking back. Vastly improved means of defence.

Against this you want to offer a general increase in destroyer usefulness (no, the BCs don't count — they are significantly more expensive than the battleships they replaced).

Quote:
Ganking is more common then ever.
No. Just no. Even suggesting such a thing is pure ignorance.

If you're going to make that kind of claim, you need to back it up with some kind of actual evidence. You need to show that several dozens of haulers get ganked (not just killed — ganked) in each and every of the bottleneck systems. You need to show dozens of mission runners getting blown up in each mission hub. You need to show clouds of CONCORD constantly surrounding every gate in and out of Jita (to say nothing of IV-4 itself). You need to demonstrate dozens of well-known ganking corps doing their business in said spots, rather than just a handful.

Hint: you will not be able to do any of this, because ganks have never been as rare as they are at the moment. You are either ignorant or lying. Take your pick.

Quote:
Uedama (sp) aufay etc are sites of daily ganking.
So in other words, they're not just laughably rare but also laughably easy to avoid.

If ganking was even remotely as common as you wish it were, you would see hourly or quarterly ganks in at least 20 or 30 systems. You would be able to just sit outside IV-4 and slurp up the loot and make a living off of it.
ashley Eoner
#439 - 2014-08-29 18:39:29 UTC  |  Edited by: ashley Eoner
Tippia wrote:
ashley Eoner wrote:
What massive nerfs?
Numerous CONCORD buffs. Numerous target buffs. Numerous price increases. Numerous increases in penalties. Huge increases in the manpower and time required. Vastly improved means of striking back. Vastly improved means of defence.

Quote:
Ganking is more common then ever.
No. Just no. Even suggesting such a thing is pure ignorance.

If you're going to make that kind of claim, you need to back it up with some kind of actual evidence. You need to show that several dozens of haulers get ganked (not just killed — ganked) in each and every of the bottleneck systems. You need to show dozens of mission runners getting blown up in each mission hub. You need to show clouds of CONCORD constantly surrounding every gate in and out of Jita (to say nothing of 4-4 itself). You need to demonstrate dozens of well-known ganking corps doing their business in said spots, rather than just a handful.

Hint: you will not be able to do any of this, because ganks have never been as rare as they are at the moment. You are either ignorant or lying. Take your pick.

Quote:
Uedama (sp) aufay etc are sites of daily ganking.
So in other words, they're not just laughably rare but also laughably easy to avoid.
Price increases are deceptive as inflation is not being taken into account. It's far cheaper to use a couple catalysts then to use the BS of old.

What vastly improved defense? You cant defend yourself till the are attacking and at that point it's too late as Nados will one shot you off the field. If they are using talos it's almost as bad. Cata and thrashers do leave you sometime to fight back but at that point it's a losing battle.

With the addition of freighters I can just contract a gank fleet to any system I plan to hit. I just have to log in fly to the spot and start ganking. No real effort required.


So you're allowed to claim whatever but when I point out reality you want citations going back to the creation of the game.

You first.

Just look at the KBs for those systems and you will see what you ask for. Stop being lazy and just look a little or stop trying to pretend ignorance.

There's more ganking corps now then ever before. Especially with the code thing going on there's now many many dozens of corps dedicated to ganking miners/haulers/mission runners and more.

I guess I could venture into lowsec gate camps to try to avoid Uedama Aufay Niarja and such when moving around..
Xuixien
Solar Winds Trade Conglomerate
#440 - 2014-08-29 18:42:59 UTC
ashley Eoner wrote:

How is something that occurs daily in a variety of systems suddenly considered "laughably rare"??


IDK let's see, there are a little over 1,000 HiSec systems.

Most of the HiSec ganking occurs in small pockets around 2 chief systems - Amarr and Jita, since those are the major trade hubs. There is also some ganking that occurs in the pipe between them.

So let's say most ganking occurs in 20 systems, which is being generous. That's 2% of HiSec systems. Laughably rare and laughably easy to avoid.

Epic Space Cat, Horsegirl, Philanthropist