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War Decs as a griefing tool

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Angeal MacNova
Holefood Inc.
Warriors of the Blood God
#441 - 2014-08-30 14:38:53 UTC
Xuixien wrote:
Hey guys I'm gonna post nonsense but I'm gonna hide behind the shield of "opinion" and "perception" so that I can't be wrong.


There is just one problem when people try and do that.

When someone says "it's my opinion", just reply with "and your opinion is wrong". Just because it's someone's "opinion" doesn't exempt them from being wrong.

Anyway,

Wardec's are the most legit way to PvP in hi-sec. I think people would do more of it and less ganking if it wasn't so easy to avoid being war decced.

With the recent changes to indy, there seems to be less reason to operate a pos. This makes it easier for "corps" to operate out of stations. Which makes it easier for players to make up "unofficial corps". Basically a group of players that operate together but are all in npc corps.

I've seen many suggestions about making it harder (or impossible) to avoid being war decced. The best one being is that wars last for 1 week at a time. So, any action along the lines of dropping from a corp or being kicked from a corp should be a week long process.

Pair this with a decent incentive for players to work in player owned corps.

http://www.projectvaulderie.com/goodnight-sweet-prince/

http://www.projectvaulderie.com/the-untold-story/

CCP's true, butthurt, colors.

Because those who can't do themselves keep others from doing too.
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#442 - 2014-08-30 14:57:51 UTC
Lan Wang wrote:
there is plenty of dedicated combat zones in eve



All of New Eden and the WH Systems, for starters

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Lan Wang
Princess Aiko Hold My Hand
Safety. Net
#443 - 2014-08-30 15:00:30 UTC
Angeal MacNova wrote:
Xuixien wrote:
Hey guys I'm gonna post nonsense but I'm gonna hide behind the shield of "opinion" and "perception" so that I can't be wrong.


There is just one problem when people try and do that.

When someone says "it's my opinion", just reply with "and your opinion is wrong". Just because it's someone's "opinion" doesn't exempt them from being wrong.

Anyway,

Wardec's are the most legit way to PvP in hi-sec. I think people would do more of it and less ganking if it wasn't so easy to avoid being war decced.

With the recent changes to indy, there seems to be less reason to operate a pos. This makes it easier for "corps" to operate out of stations. Which makes it easier for players to make up "unofficial corps". Basically a group of players that operate together but are all in npc corps.

I've seen many suggestions about making it harder (or impossible) to avoid being war decced. The best one being is that wars last for 1 week at a time. So, any action along the lines of dropping from a corp or being kicked from a corp should be a week long process.

Pair this with a decent incentive for players to work in player owned corps.


would just create problems with player griefing and not being able to progress and learn or forcing people to fight when they dont want to, people would simply just stay docked or log off for a week which aint good, maybe wardecs should be made a lot more expensive (just like player corps) so the desicion to wardec becomes a serious matter on wether its actually viable or not. not just simply lets wardec that rookie corp as a little welcome to the game

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#444 - 2014-08-30 15:01:16 UTC
Lan Wang wrote:
i see no advantage to myself or anyone in just killing them simply because the started playing eve


Who said otherwise? Where?

I dont think anyone here has suggested New Players should be primary.

In fact I go out of my way to advocate educating them in how NOT to die.

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#445 - 2014-08-30 15:02:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Ramona McCandless
Lan Wang wrote:


would just create problems with player griefing and not being able to progress and learn or forcing people to fight when they dont want to, people would simply just stay docked or log off for a week which aint good, maybe wardecs should be made a lot more expensive (just like player corps) so the desicion to wardec becomes a serious matter on wether its actually viable or not. not just simply lets wardec that rookie corp as a little welcome to the game


No, Wardecs and NPC corps both need seriously changed or simply removed (at least at a point after a character is no longer a nugget).

You are still stating a point based on what you FEEL is the way things are done, and repeating the dogma of others, you are not actually forming an opinion based on experience.

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Lan Wang
Princess Aiko Hold My Hand
Safety. Net
#446 - 2014-08-30 15:09:00 UTC
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Lan Wang wrote:
i see no advantage to myself or anyone in just killing them simply because the started playing eve


Who said otherwise? Where?

I dont think anyone here has suggested New Players should be primary.

In fact I go out of my way to advocate educating them in how NOT to die.


its been implied numerous times that killing them simply because they can and this is eve where they can do what they want, why else would someone wardec a rookie player as there is no isk advantage?

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#447 - 2014-08-30 15:11:55 UTC
Lan Wang wrote:
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Lan Wang wrote:
i see no advantage to myself or anyone in just killing them simply because the started playing eve


Who said otherwise? Where?

I dont think anyone here has suggested New Players should be primary.

In fact I go out of my way to advocate educating them in how NOT to die.


its been implied numerous times that killing them simply because they can and this is eve where they can do what they want, why else would someone wardec a rookie player as there is no isk advantage?


No you inferred that meant new players rather than all players, as was the implication.

Though if you would like to link or quote the passage you meant, Im happy to stand corrected.

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#448 - 2014-08-30 15:18:44 UTC
Lan Wang wrote:
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Lan Wang wrote:
i see no advantage to myself or anyone in just killing them simply because the started playing eve


Who said otherwise? Where?

I dont think anyone here has suggested New Players should be primary.

In fact I go out of my way to advocate educating them in how NOT to die.


its been implied numerous times that killing them simply because they can and this is eve where they can do what they want, why else would someone wardec a rookie player as there is no isk advantage?

to have fun with them.
you know.

Murderers of Negotiable Motivations

=]|[=
Lan Wang
Princess Aiko Hold My Hand
Safety. Net
#449 - 2014-08-30 15:24:50 UTC
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Lan Wang wrote:
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Lan Wang wrote:
i see no advantage to myself or anyone in just killing them simply because the started playing eve


Who said otherwise? Where?

I dont think anyone here has suggested New Players should be primary.

In fact I go out of my way to advocate educating them in how NOT to die.


its been implied numerous times that killing them simply because they can and this is eve where they can do what they want, why else would someone wardec a rookie player as there is no isk advantage?


No you inferred that meant new players rather than all players, as was the implication.

Though if you would like to link or quote the passage you meant, Im happy to stand corrected.


being that the op is 20 days old he is kinda classed as a new player who desnt really know much

You mean this wardec? https://zkillboard.com/war/378511/
Firstly, If you cannot defend yourself, you do not deserve to be alive in the first place. Pretty much my own personal philosophy in EVE.

"The same goes for highsec, You joined a corp? Good on you, Here's all the **** that can affect you. "

"Just because someone is new, does not mean they are somehow special. Sorry. Welcome to EVE, here's your complimentary charge of Antimatter."

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#450 - 2014-08-30 15:30:47 UTC
Lan Wang wrote:


being that the op is 20 days old he is kinda classed as a new player who desnt really know much

You mean this wardec? https://zkillboard.com/war/378511/
Firstly, If you cannot defend yourself, you do not deserve to be alive in the first place. Pretty much my own personal philosophy in EVE.

"The same goes for highsec, You joined a corp? Good on you, Here's all the **** that can affect you. "

"Just because someone is new, does not mean they are somehow special. Sorry. Welcome to EVE, here's your complimentary charge of Antimatter."


How does any of this mean that newer players are being unfairly targetted?

It is evidence that they are being treated like everyone else once they leave the rookie systems.

You said it yourself; " If you cannot defend yourself, you do not deserve to be alive in the first place. Pretty much my own personal philosophy in EVE."

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Lan Wang
Princess Aiko Hold My Hand
Safety. Net
#451 - 2014-08-30 15:45:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Lan Wang
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Lan Wang wrote:


being that the op is 20 days old he is kinda classed as a new player who desnt really know much

You mean this wardec? https://zkillboard.com/war/378511/
Firstly, If you cannot defend yourself, you do not deserve to be alive in the first place. Pretty much my own personal philosophy in EVE.

"The same goes for highsec, You joined a corp? Good on you, Here's all the **** that can affect you. "

"Just because someone is new, does not mean they are somehow special. Sorry. Welcome to EVE, here's your complimentary charge of Antimatter."


How does any of this mean that newer players are being unfairly targetted?

It is evidence that they are being treated like everyone else once they leave the rookie systems.

You said it yourself; " If you cannot defend yourself, you do not deserve to be alive in the first place. Pretty much my own personal philosophy in EVE."


your not understanding what im saying and what you were requesting, you asked me to quote passages where i think its new players who are being targeted, the op is 20 days old and the quotes are from people who replied to the said player it just shows he was targeted for being a new player. there is no advantage in isk or anything which warrants the wardec or killing of him so its clearly just because he is new and someone wants to inflate their own ego by targeting the new players.

i didnt quote this properly so forgive me, everything in my previous reply was comments from players talking to the op.

***quote from player - "You mean this wardec? https://zkillboard.com/war/378511/
Firstly, If you cannot defend yourself, you do not deserve to be alive in the first place. Pretty much my own personal philosophy in EVE." ***

***quote from player - "The same goes for highsec, You joined a corp? Good on you, Here's all the **** that can affect you. "***

***quote from player - "Just because someone is new, does not mean they are somehow special. Sorry. Welcome to EVE, here's your complimentary charge of Antimatter."***


then you have players from that corp who actually tried to fight, hats off to him he gave it a try and failed miserably

https://zkillboard.com/kill/40818551/

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#452 - 2014-08-30 15:52:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Ramona McCandless
Lan Wang wrote:


i didnt quote this properly so forgive me, everything in my previous reply was comments from players talking to the op.

***quote from player - "You mean this wardec? https://zkillboard.com/war/378511/
Firstly, If you cannot defend yourself, you do not deserve to be alive in the first place. Pretty much my own personal philosophy in EVE." ***

***quote from player - "The same goes for highsec, You joined a corp? Good on you, Here's all the **** that can affect you. "***

***quote from player - "Just because someone is new, does not mean they are somehow special. Sorry. Welcome to EVE, here's your complimentary charge of Antimatter."***


How do any of these show that new players are specifically being targetted?

EDIT: though that said, this thread (I thought) was about Wardec mechanics, not New Players and whether they should be immune to death

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#453 - 2014-08-30 16:00:26 UTC
Prince Kobol wrote:
No, they chose to be defenceless and by running away and hiding in a NPC corps were they learn nothing and I would wage that those newer player who hide in a NPC corps end up leaving because they experience very little that the game has to offer.
WEll there seem to be plenty of older player still in NPC corps as people kee pointing out (look out for all of those "these people aren't noobs, look how old their character is" posts).

Prince Kobol wrote:
Those players who chose to fight back in what ever way they can are more likely to stick around as they get what Eve is all about.
EVE is a sandbox. People can play however they want, and people who do nothing but PVE still stick around. If they didn't, there wouldn't be thousands of people grinding missions and rocks in highsec all day long from the safety of NPC corps.

Prince Kobol wrote:
These are the kind of players that make Eve stronger. The kind of players you want that will just hide in NPC Corps will do more damage to the long term health of Eve then anything else.
How? Arguably the game couldn't run effectively without them since the markets would be empty, meaning we'd either have to scrap around for modules or CCP would have to break their design and seed modules on the market.

Prince Kobol wrote:
I would prefer 100 new players that understand and accept what Eve is then 10000 players who want what apparently you want and that is a High Sec where PvP is removed.
So would I, by a long shot. But I'd prefer both simultaneously more than either individually. And no, I do not want PvP removed from highsec. I'm not sure how many times I'll have to say it before you guys stop misrepresenting what I'm saying. I know, I know, it's easier to make up stuff I haven't said and argue against that than to actually argue the point, which fro my perspective is that our NPE doesn't give people enough time to find what they like before we push them away. So players that don't understand how EVE works, but would learn given time, aren't getting that time. One thing I feel that contributes to that is that upon joining a player corp, they get wardecced, since the wardec system is so messed up, there's no benefit to wardeccing a competent corp over a noob filled one. How that could be resolved I don't know, but it certainly would be a good thing to see.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#454 - 2014-08-30 16:04:36 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
One thing I feel that contributes to that is that upon joining a player corp, they get wardecced, since the wardec system is so messed up, there's no benefit to wardeccing a competent corp over a noob filled one. How that could be resolved I don't know, but it certainly would be a good thing to see.


So... if your corp gets decced and dies screaming, its the new players faults, not the fault of an incompetant CEO?

If Im misrepresenting what you are saying, please clarify this more for me for I am teh dum

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Crumplecorn
Eve Cluster Explorations
#455 - 2014-08-30 16:13:51 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
fro my perspective is that our NPE doesn't give people enough time to find what they like before we push them away. So players that don't understand how EVE works, but would learn given time, aren't getting that time.
They have all the time they want. They can remain in an NPC corp and not undock for an indefinite amount of time if they wish.

As has been demonstrated over and over again, some new players are going to jump into a more challenging part of the game and then complain that it is more challenging. No amount of NPE enhancements is going to be a substitue for an attitude adjustment.

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Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#456 - 2014-08-30 16:15:16 UTC
Xuixien wrote:
Again: No one in EVE Online is defenseless unless they choose to be. Again: You've advocated that CCP change WarDec'ing. Again: There is no reason that CCP should change WarDec'ing simply because some players have made the choice to be the bottom of the food chain.
Again: Wrong. People can be defenseless. Sure, they might be able to learn in the long run, but you can't expect people who have never fought and aren't trained for it to be able to get up to speed during their wardecs. And if PvP is of no interest to them, they don;t have to learn. It's a sandbox game where they can do what they want, and living in an NPC corp is a valid choice.

And wardecs are pretty broken. They should generate content filled fights, but 9 times out of time they generate ganks. It would be nice to see them changed so there's a reason to take on people who can fight back over non-combat corps. It doesn't have to be though making defenseless corps more safe, but could be done though making fighting with combat corps more rewarding and making globally wardeccing everyone less appealing.

Xuixien wrote:
Again: There's no such thing as "actual content" vs "fake content". Content is content. Again: There's no such thing as "real PvP" vs "fake PvP". PvP is PvP.

I'm genuinely interested to see how you're going to evade my points this time. Will you completely ignore my post, or are you going to do some quotefu?
I never said "fake content", but there's good content and bad content. Some content is fun for all, for example gang fights, old school freighter transports, industrial warfare, etc. Some content is not fun for all: structure bashing, one sided fights, blueballing, etc. Would you seriously suggest that keeping bad content would be better than introducing more good content?

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#457 - 2014-08-30 16:18:55 UTC
THere seems to be a regular misunderstanding around here

Defenseless =/= Not being able to fight in combat

Defenseless = Not being willing to avoid, tank, resist, hide, flee, dodge AND/OR fight in combat

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#458 - 2014-08-30 16:21:31 UTC
Crumplecorn wrote:
They have all the time they want. They can remain in an NPC corp and not undock for an indefinite amount of time if they wish.

As has been demonstrated over and over again, some new players are going to jump into a more challenging part of the game and then complain that it is more challenging. No amount of NPE enhancements is going to be a substitue for an attitude adjustment.
As people have repeatedly been pointing out though, NPC corps don't teach people anything.

And yes SOME players will just jump in, great. But not all will and won;t understand how to get to that stage without getting smashed into thousands of pieces and urinated on. That doesn't mean those people would be bad EVE players though. Sure, if they would never learn to play, then who cares, TTFN, but I think people that could find EVE a great game are being lost because the community has such utter hatred for anyone new.

And by the way, I don;t consider a good player just to be someone who will leap straight into a combat ship and roar off into the distance, plenty of people run industry, mining, missions, never fight but accept the way people interact, and that's a perfectly OK way to play.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#459 - 2014-08-30 16:24:54 UTC
Ramona McCandless wrote:
THere seems to be a regular misunderstanding around here

Defenseless =/= Not being able to fight in combat

Defenseless = Not being willing to avoid, tank, resist, hide, flee, dodge AND/OR fight in combat
You can't tank wardecs, and avoiding will generally mean not playing for people who run PVE. Joining an NPC corp is a form of avoidance that still allows you to play.

I tell you what though, since you seem to be confused by what I mean even though I've explained it repeatedly, I'll say "non combat corps" instead of "defenseless corps". Will that make you happier?

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Crumplecorn
Eve Cluster Explorations
#460 - 2014-08-30 16:25:02 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
As people have repeatedly been pointing out though, NPC corps don't teach people anything.
So you don't want people protected from everyone else, and you don't want people exposed to everyone else.

Good luck with that.

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