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Intergalactic Summit

 
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When is enough enough?
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Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#81 - 2014-09-13 22:52:56 UTC
Aedre Lafisques wrote:

Oh, I think at least some of us realize you can't avoid doing harm basically no matter what you do. That's especially true for us Capsuleers. And it's not an excuse to not do anything. Similarly, doing good for yourself or for others inadvertently can harm people too. I think intent plays quite a large role, and the size of your 'good'.

I think a lot of people would define 'doing good things for themselves' as doing evil, too.
Good in respects to morality is generally defined as doing good 'for others' as opposed to yourself. I don't know if I entirely agree, but I suspect you think we don't do that at all over here, and that would really be a sad state of affairs.

Yes, good for ones will turn evil for others. Even if you don't do it for yourself.
For example, I, and I hope many other Caldari, would easily kill myself with my hands a hundred of people, causing them evil, to save a thousand from death, making them good. In such scenario, your evil action (-100) would be compensated by good action (+1000), and total result would be good (+900).

But can you do the same? Can you kill yourself innocent peoples just to save others? Can you do this evil deed?...
How I imagine gallenteans, they won't.
They won't kill this hundred and will just let thousand die, and their unability to act would become extremely evil (-1000).

Please correct me, if I am not right... can you kill them?...

Aedre Lafisques wrote:

"Diana Kim" wrote:
Then why are Gallenteans so eager to occupy our home worlds? It is just a consequence of widespread individualism and disregard to other peoples cultures, feels and ignorance to the fact, that humans were made to live in collectives, and not as individuals.

I'm not sure 'eagerness' is really the right word. Personally, I wasn't exactly 'stoked'. I can't speak for any of my brothers and sisters about how we feel about something like this. (In fact, even calling them that feels a little weird) - And in that regard, I think a lot of Caldari have that boon of collective you mention. If it's really as strong as you say, should take advantage of that more, really.

It's not how our history has shaped the way we have to live now, however. The Federation gets flack as it is over attempts to make its members more cohesive, and I don't really think it should continue since it's insensitive to those we have, to differing degrees, harmed in the past. I recognize that we give up a sense of community for the ideal that we let people live the way they want to, with their own cultures. Whatever attempt we have made towards that is in fact what makes us individualistic. The attempt and the concept is something we still want to protect. All that said, we don't get to have a nationwide community the way you define it, like this.

Then you are lying to yourself. Did you let Mannar live as they want? Or would you let Intaki to colonize worlds, because they want? Or, do you remember history, how that war with us started first? Did you let our colonies to be managed as they want, with proper merited and professional corporate rule instead of some inefficient democracy?...

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#82 - 2014-09-13 23:06:32 UTC
Aedre Lafisques wrote:

"Diana Kim" wrote:
Having both freedom and hedonism is way worse than having only freedom or only hedonism.

I think... I have never thought about having only hedonism. Or only freedom?
I'd be interested to see how you describe what those would be like.

Having freedom would mean an anarchy, lawless society. The local rule of strongest club, that affects only your local neighbors. There won't be order, only chaos. Nobody will work, and people will just take posessions of others without actually making anything new. Everyone will try to pull biggest piece of cake, tearing apart everything that was before. In the end, it will come to total degradation and stagnation. Education will disappear, no profits will be made. These peoples will soon turn into primates.

Having hedonism, would be animalistic society, sinking in useless luxuries, eating bad but tasty food, growing huge bellies and doing some perverted stuff, that I don't want to describe in this media. All people would do, is please themselves, instead of working improving themselves and their society. They will consume all profits and all capital on their useless and stupid desires. When all accumulated wealth will disappear, they will degrade into animal forms as well.

And having both hedonism and freedom will make humans becoming animals times faster.

Aedre Lafisques wrote:

"Diana Kim" wrote:
Just to shake your world view a bit further:

- did you know, that statistically capsuleers live hundred times shorter lives than baseliners?

I admit I'm a little skeptical about your actual figures but if you're alluding to suicide rates among Capsuleers in general, I'm not really surprised to be honest...

I remember you've mentioned something about Capsuleers being 'born' each time, actually. So if you mean that the clone only lasts a few months at a time, then yes, I suppose that statistic stands, if not even more! But I would like to count a life as whichever single consciousness though. It's not the traditional standard for the word I suppose, but these aren't particularly traditional times. The Intaki have a very interesting take on that too, if you're interested.

Our crews were more what I was talking about regarding risk. And civilians, when structures are also considered.

Single consciouseness, well. It is kind of single.
But what is different, is instance of this consciouseness.
During our cloning our identity, our consciouseness, is transferred as a digital information. And thus it can be copied, and multiple instances can be activated at the same time. Luckily, it is against CONCORD rules, and CONCORD makes everything possible so our previous bodies won't be reanimated (burning scanning). However, entities outside of CONCORD (like Sansha Nation) can easily maintain several instances of consciousness at the same time (same Sansha pilots were spotted at the same time in different parts of system, and even in different systems).

As for being different instances, just think about this:
imagine the CONCORD rule was violated and your consciouseness is transferred into three clones at once. In which one of them you, as you think "I" for yourself, will "wake up", if "wake up" at all?

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#83 - 2014-09-13 23:09:27 UTC
Lao Xin wrote:

Diana Kim wrote:

If you were a Caldari, Mr. Xin, you would say and imagine, that the most people WOULD push the man.
I would push him myself without second thought. And from Caldari point of view, this killing would be the right thing to do, and ignoring it to let the fate decide, would be amoral and cowardly action, that only gallenteans with their wicked morals take.



The Fat Man is a clue. Values vary by society. The man who pushed The Fat Man saved five lives but may go to prison or be executed. What if the train workers were criminals? Should we let the train hit them? What if they were CEOs? What is a human worth? A capsuleer? Is it efficient?

Mr. Xin, in tight situation you use only the information that is available to you.
You don't make assumption on missing data. If you don't know who these peoples are, you assume their value identical, thus 5 > 1.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.