Intergalactic Summit

They are pragmatics.

As to Mr. en Lefevre: I already reacted to all the points you raise.

I decide what I will or will not do at any given moment, just like everyone else. No matter what they claim.

Some lines I won't cross:

Drinking unchilled kresh vodka.

Tuulinen, if you've let the stock of chilled kresh vodka run dry you already crossed the line and have brought this upon yourself!

I think the most defining line, that I won't cross, is that I will never break my word.
If I will give you a promise, I will hold it, even if I will have to die to fulfill it.

But it is not the only restriction that I hold, and putting just one I think is underestimating of human nature and ability to self restraint. Otherwise the whole world will just descend into chaos and freedoms, with peoples turning just into lustful wild animals.

There are many others lines, like:
- do not betray the State
- do not work for enemy
- do not show mercy to targets
- do not show fear
- do not use combat ships for personal gain
- do not commit adultery
- do not show up inappropriate on public
- do not dishonor yourself
- do not steal
And many others... and if some of these things contradict others, where you should break one line to hold another... well, then the best solution is to just go away with Caldari style: by a tea or cold steel. Because it is better to die with honor than live a life in dishonor.

I think there is more than a few gems in here, full kudos to IGS' Shaman for asking the question and prompting the discussion.

On one hand, to define your moral actions rigidly - as Mme Kim regularly does publicly - restricts your ability to adapt to new, unexpected situations. Not to say Heth, for example, was entirely unexpected, but I have sympathy regarding the point one made earlier that no-one acts believing they are evil (or wrong). I certainly have sympathy with wanting to stick to what you believe in, and what you've said you believed in.

In opposition, defining your moralities very loosely or avoiding considering them at all is just an excuse to do whatever you like. There is a clear distinction between freedom and hedonism. While I'm sure someone like myself and someone like Mme Kim define hédonisme somewhat differently, hedonism still is a word that means something within the Federation and still carries certain connotations and implications against its practitioners. It would be chaos if we actually held it up as a cornerstone - so I think there is some relativism at work. What I think the other empires see is that the government is unwilling to micromanage our moral compass for us. Hedonism at one end and the 'greater good' at the other. Does that make the Federation irresponsible? I don't think 'the Federation' is an entity the way the Caldari seem to view the State - it can't be 'responsible' for anything we don't hold it to. (--And this thread isn't really the place for delving further into that immense rabbit hole, I think.)

I happen to believe that human beings (and other informorphs, lest someone think I am excluding someone in purposeful ignorance) are capable of deciding right action for ourselves, and that if the state decides that for us, it's disingenuous and can lead to its own, different, set of problems. I'll take my own problems over the problems facing the other states, I suppose, and that's somewhat subjective - a personal choice, which is always what it comes down to, even for Mme. Kim. I can respect her for being firm, but I worry that she might tea herself over something that would only require an admission of hindsight and a readjustment of self. Is it sometimes mortifying to do so? Absolutely, and that feeling means you still care. But the idea is to surround yourself with people who would rather see you in a moment of uncertainty than to see you gone entirely.

As for the Chief Good, while I think Mme. Mithra has made possibly the most comprehensible argument for Amarrian religious sentiment I've yet heard, I'm not sure I can simply take something as nebulous as a single god to align myself to.. If I think my state is too nebulous to make decisions for me then I'm already too far gone for sir God. But I appreciate her patience in outlining it, it remains enlightening none the less.


Responses covered, there is definitely a take away wisdom in admitting that one usually only knows where the line is after they've crossed it, and as someone pointed out, makes very for much stronger moral convictions and actions than the musings of a Student that believes this or that is Right or Wrong. I would prefer not to cross what I currently understand to be morally reproachable, but to assume I have made all the right decisions at the outset is thinking quite a lot of myself.


--I would like to keep baseliners and civilians as safe as I am able, to answer the actual question. To try to tell myself not to do any harm at all is likely to make me crazy that much quicker as a Capsuleer - it was difficult enough to pursue as a baseliner, when you really understand how the world works. I, we, crossed into a different threshold of harm-causing becoming a Capsuleer to begin with. The question becomes, what can we do to create any percentage more good than evil with our actions?

The problem with gallenteans, that they don't do evil thing for themselves, they do good things for themselves, indeed.
But they can't realize, that by doing good things to themselves, they do evil things for others. For example, would you like your home to be occupied by Caldari troops?

Then why are Gallenteans so eager to occupy our home worlds? It is just a consequence of widespread individualism and disregard to other peoples cultures, feels and ignorance to the fact, that humans were made to live in collectives, and not as individuals.


Yes, there is a clear distinction between freedom and hedonism, but it doesn't make any of them better. Having both freedom and hedonism is way worse than having only freedom or only hedonism.


To let you know how different our cultures are in regard of what is acceptable and what is not:

- did you know, that in Caldari language there is a word, that has lexical meaning of either a gallentean or hedonist?



Just to shake your world view a bit further:

- did you know, that statistically capsuleers live hundred times shorter lives than baseliners?

What won't I do? Tell you what I would do.

I didn't say that righteousness is possible without God. I merely said that one can be righteous without fearing God. It's like breathing: Of course you can breathe without believing that the element oxygen exists, but then that doesn't mean that you can breathe without oxygen existing.

I applaud you, Mr. Stitcher, for finding out that analogies never match perfectly.