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Warfare & Tactics

 
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Caldari wiped out of FW?

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Epikurus
TheBlacklist
#281 - 2014-09-09 02:37:03 UTC
Lots of people on both sides of this argument ignoring the fact that there is a category of 'significant but limited' contribution between 'decisive' and 'irrelevant'.
Yuri Antollare
Moira.
#282 - 2014-09-09 03:02:48 UTC
Cearain wrote:
Yuri Antollare wrote:
I like the summation of your argument there, it's exactly what it was 12 pages ago.


You argue, wall of text and talk past almost everyone individually in Galmill for 13 pages, and your argument is verbatim what it was at the start...

Thats an incredible amount of close mindedness and arrogance even for you.




The fact that XGs alt had over captured over 100 plexes in 2 weeks leading up to taking all caldari systems is pretty much a summation of faction war. I realize there are some in the galmilitia that don't like that fact. So you come on the forums and rage against me for bringing it up.

If you mean argument as in bickering/namecalling yes there has been that. (see your post above you in no way address the fact regarding XGs alt, you just express your anger with me. )

This is pretty much the model:

1)Cearain posts a fact and some argument based on the fact.
2)Gallente players come in and shout "you're stubborn" or "you're opinion doesn't matter" Or "you're arrogant" or "you are just mad" or "you're a crybaby," or "go play wow" One guy says he doesn't have the attention span to finish a newspaper article, so there is no way he can handle my 5 paragraph response etc etc. This isn't really "argument" in the logical sense of the word.


If you mean argument as in actually engaging the facts I raise there really hasn't been much. There has a been a little bit though.

One galmilitia argued that vp and plexes are irrelevant to the occupancy war. But between his claims versus ccps dev blogs and my own eyes I will believe the latter. Do you think vp are irrelevant? Do you think the alts rabbit plexing everywhere are irrelevant to the occupancy war? I said if gallente had no rabbit plexing alts they would be lucky to be at tier 2. Do you disagree? You need the alt plexers to deal with the enemy alt plexers. That is how the game works. I don't blame anyone. I and many others just don't care for it.

Crosi makes a completely different argument. He argues that it is fine that most plexes are captured with alts. He is entitled to his opinion. I just think paying for alts to rabbit plex is no fun. It's unclear that crosi and I even disagree about anything that actually happens in the game. We just disagree on whether playing the current game is worth a persons time or not.

That's really a summation of the threads here.



Plenty of people have written lengthy, point by point rebuttals to your "arguments," you simply talk past them. Many people brought up cogent critiques to your "But one guy capped 100 plexes so FW = broken", yet you continue to talk past them and stick to your original point with no variation.

No we don't think deplexing alts are "irrelevant" or conversely "the be all and end all," I know the vast majority of Gallente would accept they have "an" impact. However, where we remain open minded and assign varying weights to different causal explanations, we have you, who assigns 100% to one causal explanation and 0% to anything else and does so from a greater distance between your self and FW and "us" and FW. Completely aside from EvE thats just a poor way to conduct robust rational inquiry.

As others have said, and you glossed over, deplexing alts are a symptom of Caldari weakness, not a cause. You say XG's alt ran 100 plexes in two weeks (which tbh, somedays I do about 8 my self, so 100 is pretty small,) but in which systems? If the systems didn't matter to occupancy or the Caldari then who cares, if they did matter to the Caldari, how did one gunless frigate manage to stave off their defenders/attackers? What you fail to dispute is the fact that if Caldari defended the system, defensive plex alts would have 0 effect. So, hopefully, you can see it's really strange to say the alt is the issue when in reality who held the system came down to whether Caldari defended or not. Someone actually has to open the box to see if the Cat has guns or not.

Again both you and now Phaade use a lot of terms like "hunch," "for some reason", "I don't know why but" when it gets down to the actual details of how your theory works. No one seems to know why the plex alts are always favoring Gallente, iteration after iteration, or why the WZ inevitably starts to change as soon as they say its dead. Or more curiously why ,when all they offer is system level causal explanations, Galmill is the only militia to take 100% control twice. These are hints, some subtle some that should be fairly obvious, that your theory lacks explanatory power.

Note I didn't say it was wrong, just that it has a myopic focus on numbers shorn of context and as such remains relatively useless if someone wanted to explain the actual course of events in the WZ. Galmill in this thread have had plenty to say about VP and the role of alts in the WZ, you are the one that has gone 13 pages without once mentioning anything about the Caldari themselves (how they chose to defend, doctrines used, level of cooperation, tactical or strategic.) I haven't seen you look at whether or not, if the Caldari changed something here or there, they could have won a siege or been able to plex up one of the backwaters, yet if they had, WZ control would never have happened.

Anytime you want some backgrounding on any of the above, ask me, I was moving ships from siege to siege and soloing in systems like Mantenault, Sarenemi and Hasama. My opinion is many of both the offensive sieges and the defensive efforts were extremely close run events. There was no point Calmill was out of the game unti the point they gave up.

But thats just my opinion from actually being there, where were you when formulating your opinion?
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#283 - 2014-09-09 04:06:43 UTC
Clive Stratton wrote:
Shadowolves.net.
To be fair, it is probably pretty honorable to be defeated by a Shadow Wolf. It is, however, extremely embarrassing to be beaten by a Bebop. And that is our goal - to embarrass our enemies into submission.
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#284 - 2014-09-09 07:45:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Crosi Wesdo
Yuri Antollare wrote:
So, hopefully, you [Cearain] can see


Hahahaha

Yuri Antollare wrote:
But thats just my opinion from actually being there, where were you [Cearain] when formulating your opinion?


He formed his opinion literally 2 years ago so i doubt he can remember. He was correct that alts were THE problem during inferno, and has got progressively less correct as FW has changed. Irony is that he considers the inferno mechanics to be the best ones and that we should all go back to bashing 60-80 systems in 3-4 days (something he never participated in, pretty much like everything else he talks about).
Moglarr
Operation Meatshield
#285 - 2014-09-09 13:37:00 UTC
I would like to point out there were attempts to take back end systems during the final system caps. What would happen is we'd plex a system up, log off and log back on to the see the system plexed down. Alts established for dplexing were blamed, we use to call them farmers because they were farming to easy LP dplexing a Gallente system offered. We redeployed to hit systems in our time zone that were also being attacked in opposite time zones, it happened that this was around the time the Gallente had 100% control. I honestly don't know how long the Gallente had 100% of the warzone, before Hedieles, Hysera and then Prism and Tama returned to Caldari control but I don't think it was that long.

The moral of my story is that between characters assumed to be alts (their behaviour when we were in the same system together occasionally implied it, as did the few unfit ships I caught) dplexing systems in our off times we could not flip a system fast enough. When that was realized some groups readjusted. That being said, I am not expressly against the idea of people using their alts however they want to. What I am against is people refusing to accept that they do have an impact, and some of the retorts I've been reading seem to imply that.

The next thing I am wondering about is; does capturing the war zone mean anything if one completely fails to hold it? I ask, because it was interesting to see the war zone fall. It has been frustrating watching GalMil stroke themselves over taking the entire war zone, and confusing why whenever their lack of control of the war zone come us it has been brushed off with a "Oh we are letting you in" that is just insulting to everyone reading that. Especially given the discussions people had been having over pulling punches when the enemy is down.

Operation Meatshield! GETUP and fight!
Thanatos Marathon
Moira.
#286 - 2014-09-09 13:43:52 UTC
Moglarr wrote:
I would like to point out there were attempts to take back end systems during the final system caps. What would happen is we'd plex a system up, log off and log back on to the see the system plexed down. Alts established for dplexing were blamed, we use to call them farmers because they were farming to easy LP dplexing a Gallente system offered. We redeployed to hit systems in our time zone that were also being attacked in opposite time zones, it happened that this was around the time the Gallente had 100% control. I honestly don't know how long the Gallente had 100% of the warzone, before Hedieles, Hysera and then Prism and Tama returned to Caldari control but I don't think it was that long.

The moral of my story is that between characters assumed to be alts (their behaviour when we were in the same system together occasionally implied it, as did the few unfit ships I caught) dplexing systems in our off times we could not flip a system fast enough. When that was realized some groups readjusted. That being said, I am not expressly against the idea of people using their alts however they want to. What I am against is people refusing to accept that they do have an impact, and some of the retorts I've been reading seem to imply that.

The next thing I am wondering about is; does capturing the war zone mean anything if one completely fails to hold it? I ask, because it was interesting to see the war zone fall. It has been frustrating watching GalMil stroke themselves over taking the entire war zone, and confusing why whenever their lack of control of the war zone come us it has been brushed off with a "Oh we are letting you in" that is just insulting to everyone reading that. Especially given the discussions people had been having over pulling punches when the enemy is down.


1. Deplexing alts don't take systems with current mechanics, at best they help hold them against non-determined aggressors
2. Timezone Coverage
3. Taking the war zone wasn't super easy, don't believe people that say it was. And why would you want us to hold it forever?!? Thats crazy talk right there.
4. It gets brushed off cuz you haven't taken a home system.
5. Please take more systems faster.

JUSTK is recruiting
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#287 - 2014-09-09 13:51:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Crosi Wesdo
Moglar, as one of a group of people who helped coordinate defences of outlying systems i can assure you we were not trusting that important job to deplexing alts.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#288 - 2014-09-09 14:46:49 UTC
Moglarr wrote:
The next thing I am wondering about is; does capturing the war zone mean anything if one completely fails to hold it? I ask, because it was interesting to see the war zone fall. It has been frustrating watching GalMil stroke themselves over taking the entire war zone, and confusing why whenever their lack of control of the war zone come us it has been brushed off with a "Oh we are letting you in" that is just insulting to everyone reading that. Especially given the discussions people had been having over pulling punches when the enemy is down.

In taking the warzone we also took all the Caldari home systems - and that's the key.

Vacating your home systems like Athens did in the movie "300: Rise of Empire" is a valid tactic. The Spartans would probably think you were a bunch of pussies, but Loenidas thought you were a bunch of "boy lovers" in the first movie anyways. So it's not like your reputation can get any worse.
Princess Nexxala
Zero Syndicate
#289 - 2014-09-09 14:52:20 UTC
Na, the whole .net thing made it far more embarrassing. Curious was the name inspired by jazz music fans within your ranks or Anime fans?

X Gallentius wrote:
Clive Stratton wrote:
Shadowolves.net.
To be fair, it is probably pretty honorable to be defeated by a Shadow Wolf. It is, however, extremely embarrassing to be beaten by a Bebop. And that is our goal - to embarrass our enemies into submission.

nom nom
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#290 - 2014-09-09 14:57:08 UTC
Lots of our guys are into Jazzercise. And yes, there's also "Cowboy Bebop", which fits the cowboy theme of JUSTK.

Princess Nexxala wrote:
Na, the whole .net thing made it far more embarrassing. Curious was the name inspired by jazz music fans within your ranks or Anime fans?

X Gallentius wrote:
Clive Stratton wrote:
Shadowolves.net.
To be fair, it is probably pretty honorable to be defeated by a Shadow Wolf. It is, however, extremely embarrassing to be beaten by a Bebop. And that is our goal - to embarrass our enemies into submission.
Deacon Abox
Black Eagle5
#291 - 2014-09-09 17:23:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Deacon Abox
Thanatos Marathon wrote:
Moglarr wrote:
I would like to point out there were attempts to take back end systems during the final system caps. What would happen is we'd plex a system up, log off and log back on to the see the system plexed down. Alts established for dplexing were blamed, we use to call them farmers because they were farming to easy LP dplexing a Gallente system offered. We redeployed to hit systems in our time zone that were also being attacked in opposite time zones, it happened that this was around the time the Gallente had 100% control. I honestly don't know how long the Gallente had 100% of the warzone, before Hedieles, Hysera and then Prism and Tama returned to Caldari control but I don't think it was that long.

The moral of my story is that between characters assumed to be alts (their behaviour when we were in the same system together occasionally implied it, as did the few unfit ships I caught) dplexing systems in our off times we could not flip a system fast enough. When that was realized some groups readjusted. That being said, I am not expressly against the idea of people using their alts however they want to. What I am against is people refusing to accept that they do have an impact, and some of the retorts I've been reading seem to imply that.

The next thing I am wondering about is; does capturing the war zone mean anything if one completely fails to hold it? I ask, because it was interesting to see the war zone fall. It has been frustrating watching GalMil stroke themselves over taking the entire war zone, and confusing why whenever their lack of control of the war zone come us it has been brushed off with a "Oh we are letting you in" that is just insulting to everyone reading that. Especially given the discussions people had been having over pulling punches when the enemy is down.


1. Deplexing alts don't take systems with current mechanics, at best they help hold them against non-determined aggressors
2. Timezone Coverage
3. Taking the war zone wasn't super easy, don't believe people that say it was. And why would you want us to hold it forever?!? Thats crazy talk right there.
4. It gets brushed off cuz you haven't taken a home system.
5. Please take more systems faster.


I would add the following to Thanatos' points:

1. Oplexing alts/farmers can take systems that no one lives in or really cares about. They cannot take home systems or systems that a militia actually cares about and actively deplexes (they can however keep the pressure on such systems and make the deplexing a real pain in the ass). Deplexing alts similarly are not going to save a home system from capture. You have to fight to keep such systems (but they can make the task easier to a minor extent).

2. Yep timezone coverage. Don't complain that your AU and Russian farmers didn't know what you needed.

3. The warzone was held for 26 hours iirc the first time we took it (over one down time as well) and for about 4 days this time. What happened was once it was taken the incentive to pump lp back into hubs to keep tier 4 dropped off, we went into tier 3 and those that run farmer alts in our militia probably took this as a sign of **** it and logged in their Calmil farming alts instead. That this is happening is perfectly reflected in the vp totals for the last few days. Calmil running 14-16k per day lately and Galmil 9-11k per day (almost the reverse of the leadup to our taking of the warzone). So remember that if you are tempted to change your tune about farming alts as they start to benefit your side more.

4. The not holding the warzone for an extended period of time brush off is simply a function of fatigue. It was a pvp venture to siege home systems fight around the clock with whatever spare time you had or could clear from wife aggro, and then to bust the hubs under pirate hotdrop threat. The mechanics are radically different from when Damar held the warzone for Caldari for months with his after downtime advantage.

5. If you ever get to where we were you will know that this endeavor was not easy and was not a pve victory despite what Cearain and others would like to believe. Yes it would be nice if CCP would find a way to take the lp grinding farmers out of the equation. Whether that can be done, or to what extent, we all have suggestions.

Anyway, yes farmers have had a part to play in any of the past takings of the warzone. However, this last time they probably had the least impact of any of the three times. But I know you'll probably choose to believe what makes you feel less bad about losing it. Whatever vOv

CCP, there are off buttons for ship explosions, missile effects, turret effects, etc. "Immersion" does not seem to be harmed by those. So, [u]please[/u] give us a persisting off button for the jump gate and autoscan visuals.

Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#292 - 2014-09-09 18:24:08 UTC
TEST left CalMil. Calmil collapses. gg

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY
Yun Kuai
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#293 - 2014-09-10 06:07:02 UTC
Soldarius wrote:
TEST left CalMil. Calmil collapses. gg



Trust me, you didn't add any extra value. We call that a failed investment in the real world

--------------------------------------------------------::::::::::::--:::-----:::---::::::::::::--------------:::----------:::----:::---:::----------------------:::::::-------:::---:::----::::::-------------------:::-----------:::--:::----:::---------------------::::::::::::----:::::::----:::::::::::::-------
Super Chair
Project Cerberus
Templis CALSF
#294 - 2014-09-10 07:11:26 UTC
Test made better targets than allies Lol
Fourteen Maken
Karma and Causality
#295 - 2014-09-10 10:13:42 UTC
I see somebody is already upgrading caldari systems, even though they don't have enough systems to get T2 yet.

no point wasting lp like that: better to save it until you're ready to do a push for T2, or just let players cash it in. This is the same thing happened when test joined, wasted lp at the start of the push, then when we had more than enough systems for T4 nobody wanted to donate so we spent about a month in T2 when we could have been T4.
Veskrashen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#296 - 2014-09-10 11:56:44 UTC
Fourteen Maken wrote:
I see somebody is already upgrading caldari systems, even though they don't have enough systems to get T2 yet.

no point wasting lp like that: better to save it until you're ready to do a push for T2, or just let players cash it in. This is the same thing happened when test joined, wasted lp at the start of the push, then when we had more than enough systems for T4 nobody wanted to donate so we spent about a month in T2 when we could have been T4.

Right. Because the most important thing to focus on is getting LP and Tiers in the most efficient manner possible. No reason to upgrade systems for pride, or for manufacturing / research bonuses, or anything like that.

We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."
Fourteen Maken
Karma and Causality
#297 - 2014-09-10 22:07:58 UTC
Veskrashen wrote:

Right. Because the most important thing to focus on is getting LP and Tiers in the most efficient manner possible. No reason to upgrade systems for pride, or for manufacturing / research bonuses, or anything like that.


No, the most important thing is winning and keeping players interested. Caldari only have a few systems right now so every Galmil pilot in the warzone will be flocking there to plex, that LP will evaporate and the systems will be degraded long before they get enough to push for T2 as you know well. At current prices that's billions worth of LP wasted in hubs which could be spent on ships to fight the war, or saved for a tier push later = more LP and more ships to fight the war. I'm not criticizing, i'm just stating a fact.
GavinGoodrich
Perkone
Caldari State
#298 - 2014-09-11 16:31:58 UTC
All I'm seeing in this whole thread are both sides going "no, it's like this," with every other counter argument being "no, not like that, like this."

There's hardly any reason to even debate if everybody's so dead-set on "how things are."

Haaaaaalp my head's on fire
flakeys
Doomheim
#299 - 2014-09-11 18:22:35 UTC
GavinGoodrich wrote:
All I'm seeing in this whole thread are both sides going "no, it's like this," with every other counter argument being "no, not like that, like this."

There's hardly any reason to even debate if everybody's so dead-set on "how things are."



Welcome to eve discussions in general Blink

We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.
JAF Anders
Jerkasaurus Wrecks Inc.
Sedition.
#300 - 2014-09-11 19:20:51 UTC
GavinGoodrich wrote:
All I'm seeing in this whole thread are both sides going "no, it's like this," with every other counter argument being "no, not like that, like this."

There's hardly any reason to even debate if everybody's so dead-set on "how things are."


Gavin, they don't think it be like it is, but it do.

The pursuit of excellence and stabbed plexing alts.