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Flaming Shadow

Dark Fenix Rising

Likes received: 5

#241 - 2011-12-05 18:03:40 UTC | Edited by: Flaming Shadow

My opinion is that the idea of the cubes of fuel is nice, it will make surely easier to manage fuels but will kill anyone setup his pos for an efficient consumption of fuel, indeed the good thing on large towers actually is that can reduce consumption of LO and HW if not needed. The total cost increase for a large tower will be more than the 31M i've read in previous posts, simply 'casue the request of LO and HW will increase suddenlty and of quite a lot.

The moaning about npc manufactory slots filled is quite absurd tbh, the question is another: if u still need to use arrays for make em u still have to hault all the pi and ice product to the pos... at this point the whole fuel cube thing seems unuseful to me 'cause it won't even reduce the hauling work.

I'd really suggest ccp to revise this new system: u should increase pos manage possibilities and not killing 'em.

Teamosil

Good Time Family Band Solution

Likes received: 85

#242 - 2011-12-05 22:51:06 UTC | Edited by: Teamosil

CCP, if we could get firm dates for when we'll be able to add the fuel to the POS's and when the POS's will switch over to the new fuel, that would be much appreciated.

We've got the holidays coming up. For some POS's it takes a while to get to a market to re-supply, so we try to plan a ways ahead for fuel. You need to kind of dig around the dev blogs and forum threads to figure out where it stands and at present it is pretty unclear where that is. Probably there are a lot of folks out there that don't spend much time on the website that are assuming it will switch tuesday of next week or so as originally announced, but I suspect that is no longer the plan. In fact, there are probably a number of POS owners out there that are completely unaware of the coming switch altogether. Anyways, it's kind of a big transition. I think it would be helpful to have clear, fixed, dates so people have time to find out about those dates and to plan accordingly. I think I would recommend putting an announcement, with dates, in the news that pops up when you log in too asap. A lot of people are going to be very upset if the transition, or the date of transition, takes them by surprise and they lose a POS, and possibly all their stuff, because of it, so I think it would be wise to error on the side of clarity and predictability with the transition.

World Welfare Works Association 577
Cygnet Lythanea World Welfare Works Association Likes received: 577	#243 - 2011-12-05 23:14:38 UTC Yes, we'd like to be able to use this nifty new gizmo. I know that the original code for POS was a mess and the guy that wrote it didn't really leave NOTES or anything, but this is taking a while.

TR4D3R4LT

Pator Tech School

Minmatar Republic

Likes received: 51

#244 - 2011-12-05 23:24:03 UTC

Cygnet Lythanea wrote:

Bob, maybe I'm using magic, but on a small tower that's a 300% increase over what I paid to maintain my small through smart shopping and doing my own PI, according to my wallet for the last four months.

Again, I'm not seeing this as a good thing for T2.

The most likely magic in question is called "something I make is free because I make it." You've forgotten the cost of those self made PI goods and perhaps scored couple good deals. Now you've been forced to realize the cost of those "free" PI materials and there's nobody offering good deals on the market.

Such is life, you need to accept and learn to transfer the cost unto your customers. If that means you need to charge 1 mil per bpc more so be it. If you've driven away from your current profession because of the change, so be it, in companies file for bankruptcy daily. Why should eve economics be any different?

Whatever you do, dont take it personnel, it's just business, like usual.

Scrapyard Bob

EVE University

Ivy League

Likes received: 1,239

#245 - 2011-12-06 01:30:31 UTC

Teamosil wrote:

CCP, if we could get firm dates for when we'll be able to add the fuel to the POS's and when the POS's will switch over to the new fuel, that would be much appreciated.

For the first thing - tomorrow, Tuesday Dec 6th at 12:30 EVE.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=470308#post470308

For the second - I would not be surprised if it was as early as next week (Dec 13th to Dec 15th). So before then, I strongly recommend that you have at least 1 week of fuel pellets on hand for every active tower. That's about 6000 pellets for a large, 3000 for a medium and 1500 pellets for a small, and you should get them loaded in this coming week as soon as the change goes live.

It takes 3d 3h to research the fuel block BPOs to ME40, at a POS lab, with Metallurgy V. Add another day for a bit of PE research and you still have plenty of time to get one researched. Plus, the waste on the BPOs is only 5%, so maybe you make a few thousand pellets with 5% waste to buy time, then put the BPO into research.

Dinsdale Pirannha

Pirannha Corp

Likes received: 3,519

#246 - 2011-12-06 01:43:30 UTC

Scrapyard Bob wrote:

It takes 3d 3h to research the fuel block BPOs to ME40, at a POS lab, with Metallurgy V. Add another day for a bit of PE research and you still have plenty of time to get one researched. Plus, the waste on the BPOs is only 5%, so maybe you make a few thousand pellets with 5% waste to buy time, then put the BPO into research.

Scrapyard, so just to confirm, a large POS will use 40 blocks/hour?

Cygnet Lythanea

World Welfare Works Association

Likes received: 577

#247 - 2011-12-06 04:02:30 UTC

TR4D3R4LT wrote:

Um, no, I didn't factor them in as 'free' (What does Marcellus Wallace look like?). The only thing I factored in at a purchase price other then the last four months on the my regional market was robotics, because I still have a little over 250m units stockpiled from before PI. (And they said I was mad.)

Scrapyard Bob

EVE University

Ivy League

Likes received: 1,239

#248 - 2011-12-06 04:33:30 UTC

Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:

Scrapyard, so just to confirm, a large POS will use 40 blocks/hour?

Yes, if it's a non-faction tower and does not benefit from sov-discount.

10/20/40 blocks per hour for the standard towers (S/M/L) size. You can make a month's worth of large POS fuel in about 1.6 days in a component/ammo array at a POS tower (along with Industry V and PE 8-10).

TR4D3R4LT

Pator Tech School

Minmatar Republic

Likes received: 51

#249 - 2011-12-06 06:15:41 UTC

Cygnet Lythanea wrote:

Poor Marcellus

Then the most likely culprit is that someone has played your local market PI prices and until they stabilize you're paying what you're asked for if you want it. Which ofc if you pay you should move to your customers as natural price increase. When prices go down for your fuel, you do a short decline in your prices but not as big, hence hugging the new profit margin.

Yes the price to fuel has gone up because players decided to up it. It will come down because players decide so. T2 prices will adjust if people would pass on their expenses to the customers and let free market do its job instead of screaming for bailout from big man. Sure, individuals will get trampled in the process but such is life, it's just business. Marcellus knew that too.

I remember how peeps screamed "bad for T2" back when they introduced invention. Or various changes in pos fuels. Or datacore changes. Fact is that people screaming are those that are getting trampled, rest just move on.

Icarus Helia

State War Academy

Caldari State

Likes received: 43

#250 - 2011-12-06 07:45:16 UTC | Edited by: Icarus Helia

Tazmikella wrote:

Sorry Beran and Icarus but you are wrong that it will not cost more ISK - but has nothing to do with the amount of fuel that goes into each block. The price is based on current Jita price and you can already see the price fuels going up because of the horribad Interbus taxes on PI. What used to cost 2 mil to pull from 5 planets now costs over 30 mil in taxes. That is going to be passed along and it will not settle. Let's see if we all remember when PI was introduced. Remember how much POS fuel components were and what they were 2 weeks later after PI introduction. And guess what? They did not go down and will not go down - just look at the market price history.

After much yammering about the fuel pods, SOV usage, research, and faction tower usage, the amount of fuel used is fairly equivalent, in fact, mech parts and oxygen are a couple points less. However, what fact that everyone is missing is that it will cost more because the fuel prices are continually going up because 1) people doing PI stopped doing PI and 2) the fighting over the gantries will limit the large groups for control.

Lightword is correct. CCP please look at what you are doing with the fuel prices. There is nothing wrong with the amounts of fuel pods or how this is done. What is wrong is PI, the taxes, and making gantries destructible/one per planet. And don't even get me started on Ice mining, please do put Ice fields only out in null sec and 0.0 (in a sarcastic tone of voice). You really think smaller corps are going to be able to afford 180+ mil a week for Custom Gantry (already they were 150+ mil a week ago) because other corps having nothing better to do then go blow up custom gantries. Cygnet is right on - thanks for making this unplayable for solo, small groups who can't compete with the big alliances sitting out in 0.0. Might as well stop inventing/building/selling and go scam in Jita, seems to be more money in that endeavor What?

I am not wrong. do the numbers with current prices for old and new fuel requirements - all things being equal - the fuel blocks are cheaper,maybe not cheaper than than the old prices, but cheaper compared to the current costs of the old system, such that when the fuel blocks go live, your costs will deminish. Also, the PI fuel WILL settle - it just may be higher than you like :) - because those of use doing PI from tax free offices will be making a massive killing on the market.

frankly the push for players to go to low/null is kind of the point here - low and null are supposed to be where most of the game takes place, but instead people crowd highsec and play alone in a "MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER" online game. you don't want small groups to be able to compete with big alliances - if they could do that why would anyone leave highsec? and if nobody left highsec...where would the mats come from?

Why you no care?

Icarus Helia

State War Academy

Caldari State

Likes received: 43

#251 - 2011-12-06 07:55:33 UTC

Flaming Shadow wrote:

it reduces the hauling work for people who own more than one pos (hint: this is most [at least more than half of all] POS owners/operators/fuelers )

Why you no care?

Iszuule

Puppeteers of Doom

Likes received: 0

#252 - 2011-12-06 09:43:19 UTC

My current concern is not with the pos changes themselves, but rather the lack of clarity from CCP in the mannor in wich this changover will happen..

We've been told several times to make sure to have both fuel types in the pos at time of changeover, yet there is no solid date for the change over set. furthermore, currently, you cannot place the new fuel blocks within the pos fuel bay.

I feel these issues should be tackled and clarified for us before you randomly switch us over to the new pos fuel system.

would be quite annoying if you switched it over before we were able to put in the new fuel huh.


Icarus Helia State War Academy Caldari State Likes received: 43	#253 - 2011-12-06 10:13:18 UTC \| Edited by: Icarus Helia new patch tomorrow will fix fuel in bay issue. but it would be nice to know when the rollout date is so we can start switching and planning our fuel levels... Why you no care?

Cygnet Lythanea

World Welfare Works Association

Likes received: 577

#254 - 2011-12-06 14:29:40 UTC

TR4D3R4LT wrote:

I remember how peeps screamed "bad for T2" back when they introduced invention. Or various changes in pos fuels. Or datacore changes. Fact is that people screaming are those that are getting trampled, rest just move on.

The only one I remember that happening on was datacore changes. IIRC most player embraced invention as a way to break the stranglehold that the big alliance cabals had on T2.

The problem is that this recreates the old issue of the price for T2 getting too high . (Which is one of the reasons that invention was introduced in the first place.) It becomes too expensive for regular PvP use and new players to afford, and then the player base suffers. (ie fewer people pay to play the game)

Which in turn is bad for everyone.

Fairlight Corp Rooks and Kings 16
Harudath Fairlight Corp Rooks and Kings Likes received: 16	#255 - 2011-12-06 18:05:33 UTC 40 blocks for a large tower? Not 4? At 24,000isk/block at the moment that's 650m a month to run a large tower. Unless prices go down, surely this will mean people leaving wormholes and small-time POS usage en masse? Its more than double the cost of before

Scrapyard Bob

EVE University

Ivy League

Likes received: 1,239

#256 - 2011-12-06 18:33:02 UTC

Harudath wrote:

40 blocks for a large tower? Not 4? At 24,000isk/block at the moment that's 650m a month to run a large tower. Unless prices go down, surely this will mean people leaving wormholes and small-time POS usage en masse? Its more than double the cost of before

Please go back and read the previous page:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=467626#post467626

Which gives prices per 30-days of:

S: 104M ISK
M: 206M ISK
L: 409M ISK

Fuel blocks are currently overpriced on the market due to low supply and unless the underlying PI/Ice products change value drastically, will probably end up costing around (409M / 30d / 24h / 40 blocks + 5% profit margin) = 14.9k ISK/block once the market stabilizes again.

Harudath

Fairlight Corp

Rooks and Kings

Likes received: 16

#257 - 2011-12-06 19:04:12 UTC

Scrapyard Bob wrote:

Harudath wrote:

Oh, that is much better then, but still a rather large price hike and most definitely open to the possibility of becoming much, much worse. Here's hoping, anyway. I was just going by the price of fuel blocks last night.


Harudath Fairlight Corp Rooks and Kings Likes received: 16	#258 - 2011-12-06 19:04:25 UTC \| Edited by: Harudath EDIT. Whups, double post. God I'm pro >.>

Tiberious Sutherland

Federation Manufacturing Conglomerate

Likes received: 1

#259 - 2011-12-06 19:50:31 UTC

Harudath wrote:

Scrapyard Bob wrote:

Harudath wrote:

I'm sorry, but a 5% reduction in fuel costs is nothing more then wishful thinking. Based on current market prices:
Coolant: ~11000
Enriched Uranium: ~13000
Mechanical Parts: ~11000
Oxygen: ~350
Robotics: ~78500
Heavy Water: ~150
Liquid Ozone: ~450
Isotope: ~450
Large towers currently cost approximately 575k/hr assuming they are running at 100% CPU and PG. With the new fuel blocks, costs will be approximately 540k/hr which is about 6.5% less. But that assumes fuel prices stay exactly where they are. And we all know that isn't going to be the case if things remain unchanged.

PI materials are costing something like 500% more to produce then they used to. Sure, some people will be able to produce PI materials at 0% tax meaning they'll make a very nice killing on the PI market. But alot of people are going to be limited to the horrendous 17% Interbus tax rate which means market prices are going to go up accordingly. Probably not by 500% but I could easily see PI materials increasing by 50% because of the new tax rate.

And then there's Heavy Water and Liquid Ozone. If no new supply is made available for those materials (such as CCP increasing the quantity of each refined from ice), then the demand for these is going to force prices to go up. Assume that the average CPU and PG usage of a tower is as high as 80% (and I actually expect that it's much lower). That means demand for HW and LO is going to be 25% greater then it was before fuel blocks. 25% more demand with 0% more supply means prices will go up.

As a result, it's very likely that instead of that 540k/hr cost we're seeing now, large towers will cost more like 713k/hr. That's a 24% INCREASE in fuel costs. Not a 5% decrease.


Tiberious Sutherland Federation Manufacturing Conglomerate Likes received: 1	#260 - 2011-12-06 19:51:32 UTC \| Edited by: Tiberious Sutherland EDIT: Woops. Double posted.

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