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Readjust trackings mods?

Author
Cambarus
The Baros Syndicate
#41 - 2011-11-23 21:25:15 UTC
Aamrr wrote:
Edit: With respect to that ludicrously stupid pulse laser vs. 425mm AC graph

Sure -- now try adding tracking to that graph. Or fitting requirements. Or capacitor consumption. Or damage type selection. Or range dictation.

The thing here is that that graph clearly shows that lasers are overpowered, when we look only at those stats. It's the other factors (cap use, fittings etc) combined with the general brickyness of the ships that stops amarr from actually BEING OP, instead of just looking OP on one particular graph.

It actually leads in to the biggest problem I have with people who want minmatar nerfed:
Minmatar are already notably worse at actually fighting than their amarrian counterparts. In anything but the smallest of fights, amarr ships hold very notable advantages over minmatar. There are 1 or 2 exceptions to this rule (the cane being the most noteworthy, but that's because the harb could use a buff, not because the cane is OP), but for the most part it holds true.

Minmatar ships are worse at actually fighting than amarr ships, but have the ability to run more easily/pick their engagements. This is fine, and nothing short of nerfing minmatar to the point of being useless is going to change the fact that minmatar dominate the KBs, because at the end of the day the ship that gets to pick its targets is going to have a better k/d ratio than the ones that can't.
Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#42 - 2011-11-23 21:56:37 UTC
Cambarus wrote:


Minmatar ships are worse at actually fighting than amarr ships, but have the ability to run more easily/pick their engagements. This is fine, and nothing short of nerfing minmatar to the point of being useless is going to change the fact that minmatar dominate the KBs, because at the end of the day the ship that gets to pick its targets is going to have a better k/d ratio than the ones that can't.

maybe , if they are equal in numbers and none wants to disengage
but caldari/gallente is way worse than matar , so how is that balanced?
Goose99
#43 - 2011-11-23 21:59:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Goose99
Lili Lu wrote:
Nalha Saldana wrote:
Lets make this simple

http://img521.imageshack.us/img521/5421/trackingdiff.jpg

One pic is with a TE, one is without.
425mm vs heavy pulse laser.
Do you see a difference in the shape between the two? no? And thats why its balanced.


Songbird wrote:
******* forum ate my post again.

TE's replace damage mods - it's why they do not do "too much"
TC's are better than TE's since when the situation requires it they can give you 30% better tracking.
AC's advantage over pulse lazors - no cap usage , low fitting reqs. Damage is less, tracking is similar.


Even though I think some of the fall-off range with projectile ships is a little too far, these two posts have me thinking things are ok as it is. The extreme edge of that range is afterall the extreme edge of falloff.

I'm now thinking of it as "heh dodged that fastball aimed at my head" v "oops miscalculated the curve on that curveball"


That graph is precisely why it's unbalanced. The only range that matters is the range at which Winmatar boat kites you at. TE widens the kiting window - window at which you do zero dmg but Winmatar still does reduced falloff dmg to you. Nerf Winmatar speed, so that the race with longest range is no longer also the fastest one, and it's balanced.Roll
Aamrr
#44 - 2011-11-23 22:31:43 UTC
In DEFENSE of Minmatar (because I'm willing to look at opposing arguments (shocking, I know), I'd like to remind people that you can't kite beyond point range. So if your opponent has a weapon that reaches to your warp disruptor distance, kiting isn't going to work.

Now, with faction points, gang links (including the new T2 links) and the like, this becomes a little muddied, but the idea still holds.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#45 - 2011-11-23 22:57:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
Goose99 wrote:

That graph is precisely why it's unbalanced. The only range that matters is the range at which Winmatar boat kites you at. TE widens the kiting window - window at which you do zero dmg but Winmatar still does reduced falloff dmg to you. Nerf Winmatar speed, so that the race with longest range is no longer also the fastest one, and it's balanced.Roll


Which does more DPS at 32km - a Zealot or a Vagabond? How about Geddon or Tempest? Harbinger or Hurricane?

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Goose99
#46 - 2011-11-23 23:06:18 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Goose99 wrote:

That graph is precisely why it's unbalanced. The only range that matters is the range at which Winmatar boat kites you at. TE widens the kiting window - window at which you do zero dmg but Winmatar still does reduced falloff dmg to you. Nerf Winmatar speed, so that the race with longest range is no longer also the fastest one, and it's balanced.Roll


Which does more DPS at 32km - a Zealot or a Vagabond? How about Geddon or Tempest? Harbinger or Hurricane?

-Liang


Exactly, which means Winmatar will find that kiting window where you do nothing while it still does dps. It's all about who gets the range control. Leave falloff as is, nerf Winmatar speed.
Goose99
#47 - 2011-11-23 23:08:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Goose99
Aamrr wrote:
In DEFENSE of Minmatar (because I'm willing to look at opposing arguments (shocking, I know), I'd like to remind people that you can't kite beyond point range. So if your opponent has a weapon that reaches to your warp disruptor distance, kiting isn't going to work.

Now, with faction points, gang links (including the new T2 links) and the like, this becomes a little muddied, but the idea still holds.


That's like saying you're not allowed tacklers. If it's actually that simple, large blasters wouldn't be what it is.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#48 - 2011-11-23 23:15:16 UTC
Goose99 wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Goose99 wrote:

That graph is precisely why it's unbalanced. The only range that matters is the range at which Winmatar boat kites you at. TE widens the kiting window - window at which you do zero dmg but Winmatar still does reduced falloff dmg to you. Nerf Winmatar speed, so that the race with longest range is no longer also the fastest one, and it's balanced.Roll


Which does more DPS at 32km - a Zealot or a Vagabond? How about Geddon or Tempest? Harbinger or Hurricane?

-Liang


Exactly, which means Winmatar will find that kiting window where you do nothing while it still does dps. It's all about who gets the range control. Leave falloff as is, nerf Winmatar speed.


Uh, the Laser ship wins in each case (and not by a little bit). :-/

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Goose99
#49 - 2011-11-24 00:03:59 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Goose99 wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Goose99 wrote:

That graph is precisely why it's unbalanced. The only range that matters is the range at which Winmatar boat kites you at. TE widens the kiting window - window at which you do zero dmg but Winmatar still does reduced falloff dmg to you. Nerf Winmatar speed, so that the race with longest range is no longer also the fastest one, and it's balanced.Roll


Which does more DPS at 32km - a Zealot or a Vagabond? How about Geddon or Tempest? Harbinger or Hurricane?

-Liang


Exactly, which means Winmatar will find that kiting window where you do nothing while it still does dps. It's all about who gets the range control. Leave falloff as is, nerf Winmatar speed.


Uh, the Laser ship wins in each case (and not by a little bit). :-/

-Liang


With 3 TE, heavy pulse with scorch gets 32 + 9, 425mm with barrage gets 4 + 35. It looks similar, except with a falloff of 35, some dmg can still be done at 2x falloff, but with a falloff of 9, dmg runs down rapidly to zero. This, combined with Winmatar being faster than Amar and dictating range.
Cambarus
The Baros Syndicate
#50 - 2011-11-24 01:45:56 UTC
Goose99 wrote:

With 3 TE, heavy pulse with scorch gets 32 + 9, 425mm with barrage gets 4 + 35. It looks similar, except with a falloff of 35, some dmg can still be done at 2x falloff, but with a falloff of 9, dmg runs down rapidly to zero. This, combined with Winmatar being faster than Amar and dictating range.

At which point you're out of point range and doing next to no damage.
Goose99
#51 - 2011-11-24 02:31:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Goose99
Cambarus wrote:
Goose99 wrote:

With 3 TE, heavy pulse with scorch gets 32 + 9, 425mm with barrage gets 4 + 35. It looks similar, except with a falloff of 35, some dmg can still be done at 2x falloff, but with a falloff of 9, dmg runs down rapidly to zero. This, combined with Winmatar being faster than Amar and dictating range.

At which point you're out of point range and doing next to no damage.


Oversimplified retort. One that's been used 5 posts above. Others, tacklers, bubbles, etc. come into play. Range isn't limited to point range. If it's that simple, blasters would pwn all.
Surge Roth
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#52 - 2011-11-24 03:28:19 UTC
Bunch of babies need to learn to HTFU.

A lot of these nerf posts i'm seeing seem to be about 1v1. Maybe if you got out of high sec and actually participated in real fights these "theoretical" fights you keep making up wouldn't happen. But please, whine and moan about how every ship in the game needs to be the same.




It doesn't.
Goose99
#53 - 2011-11-24 03:33:50 UTC
Surge Roth wrote:
Oh noez, don't nerf my boatOops


For the blobs, Winmatar has the 1400s. But that's a whole other beef.Lol
Surge Roth
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#54 - 2011-11-24 03:46:03 UTC
Goose99 wrote:
Surge Roth wrote:
Oh noez, don't nerf my boatOops


For the blobs, Winmatar has the 1400s. But that's a whole other beef.Lol


Because moving in any direction other than approach is soooo hard.

Wait, you got webbed, scrammed, and jammed while trying to fly perpendicular? Mission accomplished then.
Goose99
#55 - 2011-11-24 03:53:59 UTC
Surge Roth wrote:
Goose99 wrote:
Surge Roth wrote:
Oh noez, don't nerf my boatOops


For the blobs, Winmatar has the 1400s. But that's a whole other beef.Lol


Because moving in any direction other than approach is soooo hard.

Wait, you got webbed, scrammed, and jammed while trying to fly perpendicular? Mission accomplished then.


You have no idea how blobs work either, do you?Roll
Surge Roth
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#56 - 2011-11-24 04:22:24 UTC
Goose99 wrote:
Surge Roth wrote:
Goose99 wrote:
Surge Roth wrote:
Oh noez, don't nerf my boatOops


For the blobs, Winmatar has the 1400s. But that's a whole other beef.Lol


Because moving in any direction other than approach is soooo hard.

Wait, you got webbed, scrammed, and jammed while trying to fly perpendicular? Mission accomplished then.


You have no idea how blobs work either, do you?Roll


Because the chosen artillery type is really going to matter when 100+ people primary you. Keep whining though, it won't change a thing on your end.
Delphineas Fumimasa
Perkone
Caldari State
#57 - 2011-11-24 05:38:34 UTC
ANYWAY, to quell the flaming.

My point was, does a single turret benefit from all 3 stats of TCs/TEs at the same time? If not, split them into 3 items with 2 stats each.

Might shakeup the "Best" fits
Mfume Apocal
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#58 - 2011-11-24 06:31:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Mfume Apocal
Goose99 wrote:
Oversimplified retort. One that's been used 5 posts above. Others, tacklers, bubbles, etc. come into play.


They do. That's when it becomes more of a DPS/EHP race, which Amarr still win, handily. Which is why Amarr BS are flat out better than anything else for seriousface fleet fights.

Goose99 wrote:
You have no idea how blobs work either, do you?Roll


Do you?
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#59 - 2011-11-24 06:48:25 UTC
Mfume Apocal wrote:
Goose99 wrote:
Oversimplified retort. One that's been used 5 posts above. Others, tacklers, bubbles, etc. come into play.


They do. That's when it becomes more of a DPS/EHP race, which Amarr still win, handily. Which is why Amarr BS are flat out better than anything else for seriousface fleet fights.

Goose99 wrote:
You have no idea how blobs work either, do you?Roll


Do you?



Indeed, the Amarr BS line is par excellence because their strengths line up with a big fleets desires.

a) Tank
b) Gank.

Arty Baddons are a response to capital logi on said brick fleets, because if you let the reppers actually cycle you never down a ship.

...Its beatable, but out running logi cycles on the primary list is a LOT harder with 150 ships on the field than it is when you have a few BC's under a carrier.

Caldari BS's are largely limited by delayed DPS and explosion radii (which makes them sub par for sub-BS) and of course ....rail guns.
Gallente are limited by rails and drones, the Domi is more of a utility platform in application, the Mega is stuck with rails and the Hype is custom built for smaller gang work, not BS fleet slugfests. If you un **** hybrids I'd be really happy with the Gallente line, since I generally fly small gangs, often no over 10 in number.
Matar BS's are actually all great, IF your primary goal is skirmishing larger slower forces they are well suited. gank nano-pests and such, if you line up a Maelstrom fleet and a Baddon fleet, numbers best favor the Maels.
Mfume Apocal
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#60 - 2011-11-24 12:57:09 UTC
Onictus wrote:
Matar BS's are actually all great, IF your primary goal is skirmishing larger slower forces they are well suited. gank nano-pests and such, if you line up a Maelstrom fleet and a Baddon fleet, numbers best favor the Maels.


The advantage in this case is purely theoretical.