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[Hyperion] Burner Missions

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Author
Archetype 66
Perkone
Caldari State
#181 - 2014-08-25 20:13:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Archetype 66
Fozzie, it seems there is a bug now with the blood raider. He is no longer repairing his armor as soon as you leave the grid. So if he destroys you and if you go back, he will begin the fight with less armor.

Edit : same for all Burners. is it by design ?

Also solo, no link, no implant, no faction :

Guristas X (Daredevil)
Blood Raider X (Wolf)
Serpentis X (Hawk)
Sansha
Angel
Skyler Hawk
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#182 - 2014-08-25 21:26:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Skyler Hawk
filthy devhax! you increased the blood burner's neut range and allowed it to do conflag damage out to scorch range!

e: I should add that increasing its damage range out to ~12 km makes its description very misleading, since the description claims the NPC uses conflagration, which doesn't have anything like that kind of range.
Thorondir 42
Krittapong
#183 - 2014-08-25 21:32:17 UTC
Archetype 66 wrote:

same for all Burners. is it by design ?


He has no real armor rep .. and a ton of HP .. it takes ages for him to rep up, but he does it over time.
Archetype 66
Perkone
Caldari State
#184 - 2014-08-25 21:43:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Archetype 66
Thorondir 42 wrote:
Archetype 66 wrote:

same for all Burners. is it by design ?


He has no real armor rep .. and a ton of HP .. it takes ages for him to rep up, but he does it over time.


No, I'm afraid. Try it. Now they only rep when they're facing an enemy. If you loose a ship and come back, you'll find them in the same state than you left them (Damaged structure / armor / shield)
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#185 - 2014-08-25 22:37:47 UTC
So many people are going to die.
Seamus Donohue
EVE University
Ivy League
#186 - 2014-08-26 02:52:28 UTC
Hey, Fozzie? The Blood Raiders Burner seems to be immune to Tracking Disruption and the Guristas Burner seems to be immune to Sensor Dampening.

My Maulus with 4 Tracking Disruptor IIs, scripted for range dampening, rigged with a Small Inverted Signal Field Projector I, at my skills, and overheated could not break the Guristas targetlock at 39 kilometers. Each Dampener had an advertised Maximum Targeting Range Bonus of -63.6174%.

My Stacking Penalties Spreadsheet tells me that the overall targeting range reduction should have been -91.503%. For that Guristas Burner to still have me locked under those circumstances, it must have a starting targetlock range of 459 kilometers.

Is this intended? I ask because excluding two form of Electronic Warfare seems to go against the principle of trying to use good fitting strategies to fight these NPCs.

...

For the record, ECM seems to work as I would expect it to. The Burner NPCs seem to have reasonable sensor strengths, with ECM jam success and failure rates that I would expect against frigate size targets.

Survivor of Teskanen.  Fan of John Rourke.

I have video tutorials for EVE Online on my YouTube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/SeamusDonohueEVE

Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#187 - 2014-08-26 04:28:54 UTC
afkalt wrote:
So many people are going to die.


And so many people will learn very quickly to skip the mission because the rewards are crap and you have to spend a ton to get a ship that can handle them solo (yeah yeah, Fozzie is a genius and can handle them all in T2 fit AF's).

CCP had an opportunity to introduce some new content for solo mission runners, but they have made it too expensive, not enough rewards, and far too infrequent to justify putting together a frigate (or frigates, if you bounce between NPC types).

Of course, this is yet another step in hammering high sec income, because eventually, L4 missions will be wiped out as we know it, replaced with cruisers and BS class missions that will be impossible to do solo. You will have to either join a group to do a L4 mission, or turn to Alts R Us.

Either way, the average solo player loses.
Lugalzagezi666
#188 - 2014-08-26 06:00:40 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:

because eventually, L4 missions will be wiped out as we know it, replaced with cruisers and BS class missions that will be impossible to do solo. You will have to either join a group to do a L4 mission, or turn to Alts R Us.


This.

Imo ccp completely gave up on designing a game that would be attractive to new players and is now completely focusing to force every player to get as much alts as is possible. They have pvp part of the game already covered with ogbs and scs, now they are testing the best way to also cover pve side. Burner missions are just first step, but we know where it leads.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#189 - 2014-08-26 07:25:56 UTC  |  Edited by: afkalt
As much as I enjoy a good bit of solo, it is an MMO and that argument will never change.

However, too keep this on topic:

I'll state up front that it might have been my own reading of the rats and the blog has caused me to come to the wrong conclusion about their intent.

I'm disappointed here, I had thought their intent was to start bridging the gap between PvP and PvE fits. To blur the lines between PvE and PvP.

What we have are weird rats with stupid stats which are going to end up being killed by mad niche, designer fits thus rendering those frigates about as much use in a real fight as a ratting battleship.

Maybe I misread the intention here, CCP, maybe the aim was the above. Feels like you've missed a trick here.


And yes, whilst I know these can be blobbed and people can bring help, I didnt expect that group to be the target here.

Like I say, maybe it is my misconceptions but I really feel you've missed a golden opportunity here.
Lugalzagezi666
#190 - 2014-08-26 08:03:41 UTC
afkalt wrote:
As much as I enjoy a good bit of solo, it is an MMO and that argument will never change.

Burner missions do not encourage grouping with another players. Incursions are group activity, because every player character shares the same reward, but not burner missions. Especially as you randomly get them from l4 mission pool - hard to synchronize that with your buddies.

On the other hand, it is much easier to synchronize yourself with your alt... And you better do it, because there is hell alot of difference in isk/h between shooting burner rat for 5 minutes solo, or for 1 minute ganged with your alt.

afkalt wrote:
Maybe I misread the intention here, CCP

Imo scouting the grounds for new kind of missions that will encourage solo pvers to get alts if they want to keep their income. Certainly not bridging pvp and pve, as one guy already wrote few pages back, burners are gimmick rats that are to be killed with gimmick fits.

afkalt wrote:
And yes, whilst I know these can be blobbed and people can bring help, I didnt expect that group to be the target here.

If it wasnt the intention, then at least they would have bigger buffer tanks instead of active tanks capable of outtanking 90% frigs out there, but horribly failing against 2 of them.

Aria Jimbojohnson
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#191 - 2014-08-26 08:21:02 UTC
These things seriously need to have their tanks nerfed. Some of them are literally impossible in most ships simply because said ships can't realistically reach the DPS to break their insane active tanks.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#192 - 2014-08-26 08:22:47 UTC
Like I say, that was just how I read into their concept when I read the blog, however it would seem I was mistaken and it seems like a missed opportunity.

I think it could have been much better with negligible rewards but a rat slightly closer to reality to help people transition. Low/null isnt the deathtrap people think it is.
Archetype 66
Perkone
Caldari State
#193 - 2014-08-26 08:27:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Archetype 66
I don't get your point guys. All that new content require is to pilote assaut frig or pirate's frigs. It doesn't require expansive fit nor an alt or to bring some friends.

It's just something that comes to bring a little variety to lvl4 mission. Leave your Hac / BS / BC and jump back to a frig, find the fit that will counter the opponent and have fun.

The only constraint is that it forces to cross-train, that's all ^^ + this forces to discover a variety of modules, implants and skills. including overheating management :) You can defeat them with at least to different frigs but it's always a tricky fight that require micro management of your modules. Isn't it more fun than dropping sentries and completing mission semi-afk ??

Furthermore, it's a quick reward : as soon as you find a strategy to go against, the reward for these few minutes of attention in the fight will drop, better than most lvl4.

All good and fun.

Bring it to cruiser size CCP !
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#194 - 2014-08-26 08:30:46 UTC  |  Edited by: afkalt
What is my point?

My point is that a 360 DPS frigate dying at point blank range before I could get through the shield of an armor tanked rat whilst running my repper overheated might be a bit overtuned for what my expectations of the point of the content was.

However, it is easy to readjust my expectations, but that doesnt mean I dont think they have missed a trick.
Archetype 66
Perkone
Caldari State
#195 - 2014-08-26 08:38:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Archetype 66
afkalt wrote:
What is my point?

My point is that a 360 DPS frigate dying at point blank range before I could get through the shield of an armor tanked rat whilst running my repper overheated might be a bit overtuned for what my expectations of the point of the content was.

However, it is easy to readjust my expectations, but that doesnt mean I dont think they have missed a trick.


Try a Wolf for the Blood Raider. You can destroy it solo with a T1/T2 fit, no links, no implants. Worm and Daredevil can also.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#196 - 2014-08-26 08:43:18 UTC
I get that.

I just dared to hope it wouldnt require a stupid fit that is bugger all use in actual PvP. I was wrong, I get that. Doesn't mean I think this is a good route for them to take it down.

The wolf you used would be about as much use in PvP as a mission raven. No prop mod or point ffs.

It's more of the same PvE fit is PvE and bad at everything else and that is the disappointment.
Archetype 66
Perkone
Caldari State
#197 - 2014-08-26 08:59:46 UTC
afkalt wrote:
I get that.

I just dared to hope it wouldnt require a stupid fit that is bugger all use in actual PvP. I was wrong, I get that. Doesn't mean I think this is a good route for them to take it down.

The wolf you used would be about as much use in PvP as a mission raven. No prop mod or point ffs.

It's more of the same PvE fit is PvE and bad at everything else and that is the disappointment.



I understand. Maybe it's a step before a new AI to born that will achieve that goal.
Lugalzagezi666
#198 - 2014-08-26 09:10:06 UTC
Archetype 66 wrote:
Furthermore, it's a quick reward : as soon as you find a strategy to go against, the reward for these few minutes of attention in the fight will drop, better than most lvl4.

The only people cashing big isk/h here will be multiboxers ganking poor burners and shuffling through missions to get more of them. Solo l4 mission runners will be just increasing multiboxers rewards with their frigs slowly breaking through burner tanks.

Also variety in form of using gimmick fit (from a very limited pool of ships that are actually able to break burner tanks) that is useless for everything else, warping to mission, hiting f1 and waiting for 1-5 minutes until npc that is cheating like crazy dies... no thanks.

Or wait, was it meant to be fitting minigame? Well, that was fun. For 3 hours...
Jori McKie
Horde Vanguard.
Pandemic Horde
#199 - 2014-08-26 10:46:12 UTC
Burner Cruor
Way overpowered compared to the other, after latest changes:
- Drone ships doesn't work at all because the Cruor priory target is now Drones
- Missile ships doesn't work at all, because you can only run 1x web and your Rockets will hit with like 25% of their DPS
- Kiting does not work anymore because the Cruor now instantly web and shot beyond 12km

Only thing that works now is a passive Jaguar with 2x medium ASB and 200mm AC + Fusion and even with that it is hard because the DPS from the Cruor at 5km is ~320, you can barely tank that.

What might work is an AB Kiter with tank + 14km dual web, need to test that. But honestly that Cruor is way overpowered.



Bug report:
You can't scram the Worm anymore

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." - Abrazzar

Skyler Hawk
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#200 - 2014-08-26 11:03:08 UTC
Jori McKie wrote:
Burner Cruor
Way overpowered compared to the other, after latest changes:
- Drone ships doesn't work at all because the Cruor priory target is now Drones
- Missile ships doesn't work at all, because you can only run 1x web and your Rockets will hit with like 25% of their DPS
- Kiting does not work anymore because the Cruor now instantly web and shot beyond 12km

Only thing that works now is a passive Jaguar with 2x medium ASB and 200mm AC + Fusion and even with that it is hard because the DPS from the Cruor at 5km is ~320, you can barely tank that.

What might work is an AB Kiter with tank + 14km dual web, need to test that. But honestly that Cruor is way overpowered.


Yeah, both its neut range and its damage range have been substantially increased so if anything it's now a lot harder to deal with. A faction web rail DD can still kill it by kiting at ~13 km, but the faction web is now a requirement rather than a nicety and you need a bit of tank as well because it'll still land a few heavy hits even when you're at that range.