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Double Wrapped Contract Discussion. (Serious Discussion.)
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Masao Kurata
Perkone
Caldari State
#61 - 2014-08-22 00:26:38 UTC
Greg Valanti wrote:
Yeah, that's simply untrue. Your single web alt would get you through one gate, but a fleet of catalysts could beat you in warp to your destination and then wait for you on the other side while your alt has to wait out the aggression timer..


Psst, there's a thing called gate cloak. That plus the warp time (last I checked freighters don't exactly warp very quickly) easily gives you enough time to wait out the weapons timer and load grid.
TheMeanPerson
Loot Disposal United
#62 - 2014-08-22 00:43:19 UTC
Sigras wrote:
I agree that they need to fix the KM counter, so that it reflects accurately...

That being said, there needs to be a viable counter to cargo scanning BEFORE double wrapping gets removed.

Either that or freighters need to get more EHP because right now you break even if you gank freighters carrying 600,000,000 ISK. And those numbers are for a obelisk with perfect skills and reinforced bulkheads.

This means unless you can fly one, there is no safe way to haul a nestor from jita to dodixie without double wrapping

Something about that seems wrong, and until there is a good alternative, double wrapping needs to stay the way it is.


The idea is people shouldn't be moving 5b+ in a single freighter trip, I cant speak for other players, but I personally dont gank any thing under 10b isk, when it comes to freighters. There are people who would gank others just to do it, us not being able to scan your cargo makes no difference to those players anyway.

I agree there needs to be an alternative to avoiding entire cargo scans, either a new T2 freigher, or perhaps modules that lower scan chance, but definitely not eliminate scans entirely, that would allow people to move things as they are now and move 20b+ without anyone knowing.
TheMeanPerson
Loot Disposal United
#63 - 2014-08-22 00:46:03 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
TheMeanPerson wrote:
Nothing got away, just trying to argue a point of broken mechanic with a bunch of carebears who agree its broken and not working as intended but still think it should exist in eve, even though it gives a role to any class of ship that ship isn't supposed to have, as well as hides kill loss value.


You keep saying it's broken but I have yet to see a proof of it. For all we know, it might be intended by CCP to work that way. As for the KM, once you fly logi, you start realizing they are worthless. ESPECIALLY on the attacker side since everybody somehow get's full credit for the exact same kill.

What's the value of your kills when anybody can get an exactly equal by standing close to your ships in the gank attempt in an Ibis and fire his civilian guns at the target just once?


If you don't see how it is broken after reading my post, than there is nothing I can say here, other than to reitterate for the 9th time how value isn't reflected in ganks of double wrapped courier contracts. There also isn't supposed to be the ability to hide cargo completely through the use of any mechanic in the game with the exception of the role bonus given to blockade runners. THAT is what is intended, double wrap couriers are broken and were never fixed, theres a difference.

When you abuse a broken system, its called an exploit of game mechanics. Please learn to read, or learn terminology.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#64 - 2014-08-22 00:50:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaarous Aldurald
Greg Valanti wrote:
I don't haul, but if you are going to disallow double wrapping then there should fairly be a module to prevent cargo scanning.

Everything in game has a counter. Currently, it seems that double-wrapping is the only counter available to haulers from becoming obvious gank targets.

Unlike the Orca fleet hangars when nothing appeared, you can still see that there is cargo inside the ship. It is up to you whether to risk ganking for it.


Having your cargo scanned is the intended gameplay.

Being immune to it is not. You can tell this, because blockade runners have a specific feature to prevent it. Which means that, by default, it's not intended for other ships.

+1 to the OP.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
TheMeanPerson
Loot Disposal United
#65 - 2014-08-22 01:05:37 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Greg Valanti wrote:
I don't haul, but if you are going to disallow double wrapping then there should fairly be a module to prevent cargo scanning.

Everything in game has a counter. Currently, it seems that double-wrapping is the only counter available to haulers from becoming obvious gank targets.

Unlike the Orca fleet hangars when nothing appeared, you can still see that there is cargo inside the ship. It is up to you whether to risk ganking for it.


Having your cargo scanned is the intended gameplay.

Being immune to it is not. You can tell this, because blockade runners have a specific feature to prevent it. Which means that, by default, it's not intended for other ships.

+1 to the OP.


FINALLY SOMEONE WITH LOGIC!
Ace Gunnery
War Decs Inc
#66 - 2014-08-22 01:11:08 UTC
Its clearly an exploit to circumvent the cargo scanner module. I dont think anything else needs said heh
Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
#67 - 2014-08-22 01:12:53 UTC
Greg Valanti wrote:
I don't haul, but if you are going to disallow double wrapping then there should fairly be a module to prevent cargo scanning.

Everything in game has a counter. Currently, it seems that double-wrapping is the only counter available to haulers from becoming obvious gank targets.

Unlike the Orca fleet hangars when nothing appeared, you can still see that there is cargo inside the ship. It is up to you whether to risk ganking for it.

Yeah because highsec should be safe.

No... There is a ship that does that. If you want cargo hidden you use that ship.
If you want freighter sized cargo deal with it being shown.

EvE-Mail me if you need anything.
NEONOVUS
Mindstar Technology
Goonswarm Federation
#68 - 2014-08-22 01:43:10 UTC
TheMeanPerson wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Greg Valanti wrote:
I don't haul, but if you are going to disallow double wrapping then there should fairly be a module to prevent cargo scanning.

Everything in game has a counter. Currently, it seems that double-wrapping is the only counter available to haulers from becoming obvious gank targets.

Unlike the Orca fleet hangars when nothing appeared, you can still see that there is cargo inside the ship. It is up to you whether to risk ganking for it.


Having your cargo scanned is the intended gameplay.

Being immune to it is not. You can tell this, because blockade runners have a specific feature to prevent it. Which means that, by default, it's not intended for other ships.

+1 to the OP.


FINALLY SOMEONE WITH LOGIC!

By this logic only BLOPS should use normal cloaks since only they have a bonus to it, racial weapons on racial ships (except launchers, those go on everything)

This can be expanded to only those with +warp strength should have warp stabs, dreads with cap guns (blap a frig with a capital hybrid abbadon, much more fun than using an arty abaddon)

Your inherent logic is that because the module can see through most things, it should see through all things. Much like a neutron, it will go through most things but there are still things it cant go through.

Besides ganks need to have something to counter, otherwise they fall into the stupid not to do category and that is a bad place to be. Much like Rancer.
TheMeanPerson
Loot Disposal United
#69 - 2014-08-22 03:24:36 UTC  |  Edited by: TheMeanPerson
NEONOVUS wrote:
TheMeanPerson wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Greg Valanti wrote:
I don't haul, but if you are going to disallow double wrapping then there should fairly be a module to prevent cargo scanning.

Everything in game has a counter. Currently, it seems that double-wrapping is the only counter available to haulers from becoming obvious gank targets.

Unlike the Orca fleet hangars when nothing appeared, you can still see that there is cargo inside the ship. It is up to you whether to risk ganking for it.


Having your cargo scanned is the intended gameplay.

Being immune to it is not. You can tell this, because blockade runners have a specific feature to prevent it. Which means that, by default, it's not intended for other ships.

+1 to the OP.


FINALLY SOMEONE WITH LOGIC!

By this logic only BLOPS should use normal cloaks since only they have a bonus to it, racial weapons on racial ships (except launchers, those go on everything)

This can be expanded to only those with +warp strength should have warp stabs, dreads with cap guns (blap a frig with a capital hybrid abbadon, much more fun than using an arty abaddon)

Your inherent logic is that because the module can see through most things, it should see through all things. Much like a neutron, it will go through most things but there are still things it cant go through.

Besides ganks need to have something to counter, otherwise they fall into the stupid not to do category and that is a bad place to be. Much like Rancer.


You make no sense, you just compared apples to oranges. It should be able to see through anything but a cloaky hauler as its the only ship in the game that is role designated to be "immune to cargo scanning modules", and lets face it no one can argue that double wrapping isn't a broken mechanic that happened unintentionally that was never fixed and has been exploited, and now I'm calling it out for what it is and care bears who exploit the broken mechanic are now crying foul because they wont be able to move their 50b hauls in one haul with double wrapped couriers anymore, and if they do they will actually have to get a 50b loss mail like the rest of the idiots who do such things.

No one here has presented a valid counter arguement other than "Ganking needs a counter so lets make it so no one can see our cargo by exploiting a mechanic that wasnt intended to exist." Stop repeating and come up with something new, that arguement is invalid on premise of acknowledging a broken mechanic then saying it should stay in the game JUST BECAUSE YOU DISAGREE WITH GANKING AS A WHOLE.

If ccp were to take into account what people want because they benefit from it us gankers might as well just ask for noobships that we can gank in and one hit freighters with because that would benefit us gankers and you guys would feel an amazingly horrible negative effect, and it would be totally overpowered and broken.

SO IT WOULD NEVER HAPPEN BECAUSE IT WOULD BE BROKEN, BUT TO SAY DOUBLE WRAPPING IS OK BECAUSE HAULERS BENEFIT FROM IT SO IT SHOULD STAY SO GANKERS HAVE LESS ABILITY TO GANK AND WARTARGETS/GANKERS CANT SCAN YOUR SHIP THOUGH ITS NOT INTENDED TO HAVE SCANNER IMMUNITY, BUT IT DOES BECAUSE YOUR EXPLOITING A BROKEN MECHANIC. CCP's OPINION IS FAVORITISM TO ONE GROUP OVER THE OTHER. NOTHING ELSE. IT IS FAVORITISM/UNFAIR JUDGEMENT ON WHAT IS AND WHAT ISN'T AN EXPLOIT.

EDIT AGAIN: AND YOUR LOSSES THEN SHOW UP AS A SHIP LOSS WITH NO CARGO VALUE.

AND FOR THOSE WHO SAY GANKING IS OVERPOWERED, the amount of work that goes into forming a gank fleet, finding a target, chasing the target, getting the target into a position where there is no escape, the isk investment it takes to buy gank ships, the pilot coordination during the gank.

IF ITS SO EASY,
Why are there so few doing it? Do you think we are just special assholes who have nothing better to do? We're good at it, its what we do its our thing and to say your game mechanics are more important than our game mechanics. You are essentially asking for high-sec to disallow all pvp. Sorry guys ganking has and always will be an intended game mechanic in EVE Online, not the broken unintended mechanics in the contract system that were allowed due to the lack of people complaining, and sorry to say but with the increase of people hiding cargo in freighters using this exploit its time to talk about it.
Hopelesshobo
Hoboland
#70 - 2014-08-22 03:43:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Hopelesshobo
TheMeanPerson wrote:

now crying foul because they wont be able to move their 50b hauls in one haul with double wrapped couriers anymore, and if they do they will actually have to get a 50b loss mail like the rest of the idiots who do such things.


If everyone is hauling 50b worth of cargo when they are double wrapping their stuff and you previously said.....

TheMeanPerson wrote:


but I personally dont gank any thing under 10b isk, when it comes to freighters.


So, shouldn't this mean that you should gank everything when you see a double wrap on your cargo scan? Because after all, only 20% of your gank targets have to actually carry this 50B threshold to meet your quota.

And to the argument, use a webbing alt.....since you cannot create a contract with yourself, they do have to use an alt, it's just not a webbing alt, to help protect their cargo.

TheMeanPerson wrote:


SO IT WOULD NEVER HAPPEN BECAUSE IT WOULD BE BROKEN, BUT TO SAY DOUBLE WRAPPING IS OK BECAUSE HAULERS BENEFIT FROM IT SO IT SHOULD STAY SO GANKERS HAVE LESS ABILITY TO GANK AND WARTARGETS/GANKERS CANT SCAN YOUR SHIP THOUGH ITS NOT INTENDED TO HAVE SCANNER IMMUNITY, BUT IT DOES BECAUSE YOUR EXPLOITING A BROKEN MECHANIC.


Rebuttal #1: Wartargets care about scanning your freighter before popping it?
Rebuttal #2: How does double wrapping something in your cargo make it harder for you to get ganked? Last time I checked double wrapping something does not increase your EHP.

Lowering the average to make you look better since 2012.
TheMeanPerson
Loot Disposal United
#71 - 2014-08-22 04:00:13 UTC  |  Edited by: TheMeanPerson
Hopelesshobo wrote:
TheMeanPerson wrote:

now crying foul because they wont be able to move their 50b hauls in one haul with double wrapped couriers anymore, and if they do they will actually have to get a 50b loss mail like the rest of the idiots who do such things.


If everyone is hauling 50b worth of cargo when they are double wrapping their stuff and you previously said.....

TheMeanPerson wrote:


but I personally dont gank any thing under 10b isk, when it comes to freighters.


So, shouldn't this mean that you should gank everything when you see a double wrap on your cargo scan? Because after all, only 20% of your gank targets have to actually carry this 50B threshold to meet your quota.

And to the argument, use a webbing alt.....since you cannot create a contract with yourself, they do have to use an alt, it's just not a webbing alt, to help protect their cargo.

TheMeanPerson wrote:


SO IT WOULD NEVER HAPPEN BECAUSE IT WOULD BE BROKEN, BUT TO SAY DOUBLE WRAPPING IS OK BECAUSE HAULERS BENEFIT FROM IT SO IT SHOULD STAY SO GANKERS HAVE LESS ABILITY TO GANK AND WARTARGETS/GANKERS CANT SCAN YOUR SHIP THOUGH ITS NOT INTENDED TO HAVE SCANNER IMMUNITY, BUT IT DOES BECAUSE YOUR EXPLOITING A BROKEN MECHANIC.


Rebuttal #1: Wartargets care about scanning your freighter before popping it?
Rebuttal #2: How does double wrapping something in your cargo make it harder for you to get ganked? Last time I checked double wrapping something does not increase your EHP.


To start, 50b is a high end possiblity, the bottom line is no one knows what they are carrying it could be 50b it could be a trit, the point being is its avoiding a mechanic that is intended to be in the game with a mechanic that was not meant to be in the game, there for by definition making it an exploit. THERE IS NO ARGUEMENT THAT IT IS NOT AN EXPLOIT. SAYING GANKING IS WRONG SO LETS EXPLOIT A BUG IS NOT AN OPTION.

Rebuttal #1: Wartargets kills then show up as 0 isk, with the exception of the freighter hull loss, in addition your questioning something that isn't related, if they were to scan the freighter it wouldnt work correctly, the bottom line is scanners arent working as intended due to this exploit.

Rebuttal #2: Double wrapping makes it harder to be ganked by making gankers have to gamble on something they shouldn't have to gamble on, if everyone started double wrapping gankers would stand 0 chance at ganking, it is an exploit of a mechanic. IT IS WHAT IT IS THERE IS NO REBUTTLE TO THE MECHANIC NOT BEING BROKEN.
TheMeanPerson
Loot Disposal United
#72 - 2014-08-22 04:02:30 UTC  |  Edited by: TheMeanPerson
If you're just joining in, Read the OP and all responses, other comments in the forum to see if what you've said isn't going to be something that has already been proven a non-valid arguement.

This includes:

GANKING OP NEEDS NERF SO EXPLOIT BUG/UNINTENDED MECHANIC LULZ LULZ LULZ

Freighters should be cargo scanner immune like blockade runners so lets exploit the bug.

Ganking is wrong so people should be able to exploit the bug because ganking is wrong.

Double wrapping has always been around so it should stay though it has so many broken things included in it that it deserves a deeper look into the issue by CCP and discussion.

Double wrapping is needed to counter gankers. (even though its an exploited bug and shouldn't be able to be used in countering high-security piracy)

Killmails dont matter so the fact that double wrapping nullifies cargo loss in all contents in the original wrap of the double wrap, though it can effect killboards, loss values, aswell as war reports in wars. (WHICH MERCS PAY ISK FOR TO HAVE WORKING CORRECTLY).

Anything to do with favoritism/bias towards this being used as an exploit just because you disagree with ganking or agree with the use of it in its current form while acknowledging its completely broken.
Hopelesshobo
Hoboland
#73 - 2014-08-22 05:11:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Hopelesshobo
TheMeanPerson wrote:

To start, 50b is a high end possiblity, the bottom line is no one knows what they are carrying it could be 50b it could be a trit, the point being is its avoiding a mechanic that is intended to be in the game with a mechanic that was not meant to be in the game, there for by definition making it an exploit. THERE IS NO ARGUEMENT THAT IT IS NOT AN EXPLOIT. SAYING GANKING IS WRONG SO LETS EXPLOIT A BUG IS NOT AN OPTION.


Well, you later said that....

TheMeanPerson wrote:

Invisible cargos wont save you if someone is randomly killing freighters anyway!


So what's the issue to begin with?

TheMeanPerson wrote:

Rebuttal #1: Wartargets kills then show up as 0 isk, with the exception of the freighter hull loss, in addition your questioning something that isn't related, if they were to scan the freighter it wouldnt work correctly, the bottom line is scanners arent working as intended due to this exploit.


How is this not related since you were the one that brought up WT first?

TheMeanPerson wrote:

Rebuttal #2: Double wrapping makes it harder to be ganked by making gankers have to gamble on something they shouldn't have to gamble on, if everyone started double wrapping gankers would stand 0 chance at ganking, it is an exploit of a mechanic. IT IS WHAT IT IS THERE IS NO REBUTTLE TO THE MECHANIC NOT BEING BROKEN.


So if I'm going to quote the ever used Risk = Isk equation....you do not want any risk and you want to confirm you will get your isk back (due to law of average since on average half the cargo/mods drop).

TheMeanPerson wrote:


Ok, even if we did kill them randomly to get the drop, their kill still reads 0 isk, reguardless of whether we knew or not if it had something the kill's value is then negated in the same way the scan is. Its an exploit.


I do agree that it should show up in the killmail, even though I believe killmails are not the be all end all of eve, since logis and OGBs are not on killmails.

Lowering the average to make you look better since 2012.
Anthar Thebess
#74 - 2014-08-22 06:33:28 UTC
Exploit, should be forbidden.

Stop discrimination, help in a fight against terrorists

Show your support to The Cause!
Janice en Marland
Cross Saber Holdings
#75 - 2014-08-22 07:05:47 UTC
Gankbear tears best tears.
Sigras
Conglomo
#76 - 2014-08-22 11:39:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Sigras
TheMeanPerson wrote:
Anything to do with favoritism/bias towards this being used as an exploit just because you disagree with ganking or agree with the use of it in its current form while acknowledging its completely broken.

So everyone who agrees with you is impartial and everyone who disagrees with you has a bias?

because youre a saintly Godly person who would never allow his bias to effect his decision making process? Do you understand the phrase "Conflict of interest"?

Masao Kurata wrote:
Sigras wrote:
because nobody uses catalysts to suicide gank right?

Because other ganking groups regularly field enough catalysts to kill freighters, right? Oh wait, no they don't. And if they did that would be FINE, they're throwing a magnitude more warm bodies at killing you than you are at protecting yourself. You do not deserve automatic safety and you would complain no matter how many pilots it took. 30? 50? 100? As long as somebody can field that many pilots you would whine.

Im going to guess that you didnt even bother to look at the links because if you had you would have known that the first two links were not CODE kills which im assuming is who youre referencing...

Also youre making the fatal mistake of assuming 1 character = 1 human sitting at a computer... Ganking with catalysts is not a complex thing, and could easily be done by one person using ISBoxer which CCP has already stated is not against the EULA. That means that the entire operation could be done by 2 people ... maybe 3 if you count that you need someone scanning ships...

Additionally CODE ganks a LOT of ships, and this problem is only going to get worse not better as more people join...

And actually I realized something, the math I worked out is actually worse than I initially thought. See I forgot to factor in that you get to loot the catalysts too meaning your cost per ship is almost cut in half... That brings your break even point down to about 300 million ISK...

What about a compromise? See you shouldnt be able to haul several billion ISK safely through high sec, but on the other hand, it's kinda silly that filling your tank-fit freighter with the second most common material in the universe (pyerite) would make you a gank target.

What if you got rid of double wrapping, and instead added a container like the General Freight Container, 120,000 m^3 that cost 100,000,000 ISK, Once you put things into it, the only way to get them out again would be to destroy the container. The key is that the container has a 0% drop rate.

That way if you wanted to destroy a freighter to cripple an alliance's industry, you can do that, and you can always see what you're destroying, and you get KB credit for the ISK destroyed, but nobody gets it. The downside of the container is that it costs 100 million for that security because you cant use that container ever again, and these are 120,000 m^3 so they can only ever be used on freighters, you cant secure industrials that way.
Masao Kurata
Perkone
Caldari State
#77 - 2014-08-22 12:49:25 UTC
Sigras wrote:
Im going to guess that you didnt even bother to look at the links because if you had you would have known that the first two links were not CODE kills which im assuming is who youre referencing...


The fleet commander is clearly loyalanon on all except maybe two of them, but he's on those killmails too so although there isn't much CODE. presence on those two killmails, it's probably his fleet in their case too although I wasn't there and can't say. ISBoxer is a separate topic and should be banned, it's an advantage in controlling the client gained through use of external software, only different from botting in degree.
BFE
Shadow Flight
#78 - 2014-08-22 13:14:46 UTC
TheMeanPerson wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Greg Valanti wrote:
I don't haul, but if you are going to disallow double wrapping then there should fairly be a module to prevent cargo scanning......


Having your cargo scanned is the intended gameplay.

Being immune to it is not. You can tell this, because blockade runners have a specific feature to prevent it. Which means that, by default, it's not intended for other ships.

+1 to the OP.


FINALLY SOMEONE WITH LOGIC!



Don't lose faith, there are those among us with logic still.... Anyone with a question on these ships need only look up the Viator (Gallente), Crane (Caldari), Prorator (Amarr), and/or the Prowler (Minmatar).
I'll copy straight from the client on the other screen:

"Role Bonus:
* Can Fit Covert Ops Cloaking Device and Covert Cynosural Field Generator
* Cloak reactivation delay reduced to 5 seconds
* Immune to all Cargo Scanners"

^ Point made ^
Dalto Bane
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#79 - 2014-08-27 11:55:23 UTC
I almost agree with you OP, except that I look at bubblewrapping/double wrapped cargo in the same light as AFK Cloaking. They maybe watching you, they might not be/ There might be something in that cargo, there might not be. Its psychological warfare. Ahhh yeah, but it does need to be fixed, if for anything, to actually allow covert transports to have a benefit that other transports don't.

Drops Mic
Sable Moran
Moran Light Industries
#80 - 2014-08-28 07:18:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Sable Moran
TheMeanPerson wrote:
Greg Valanti wrote:
TheMeanPerson wrote:
Greg Valanti wrote:
I didn't say that, I said you can see it is actually hauling something whereas the old fleet hangar mechanic made anything in there invisible entirely.


I acknowledge what you said, I'm simply saying it makes no difference its practically like seeing nothing at all.


It gives you the knowledge that the hauler felt it was worth taking the precaution for.


Gankers aren't infinite pools of cash who gamble on ganking random people, the overall point being is its still an exploit NO ONE HERE can deny its an unintended mechanic that is being used for some players gain...


In essence you're saying that gankers don't want any risk to go with their reward.Roll

Anyway, double wrapping has its uses in cargo management so I don't want to see it go. If - IF - this needs fixing the way to look at it is making cargo scanning look through any layers of packaging there is.

Edit:
TheMeanPerson wrote:
I might also add for anyone with a rebuttle on whether it should or shouldn't be allowed, keep in mind it makes kills worth 0 isk on the kill, in addition to showing up on the killboard as a 0 isk cargo kill.


HuohRollRoll killmail whoring, that's reason alone to entirely dismiss this thread and just enjoy the ganker tears. Bloody carebears all of them.Evil

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