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Why do people believe ISK has a real life money value?

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Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#41 - 2014-08-20 15:47:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Herzog Wolfhammer
Andski wrote:
It depends on the context. When news outlets report "$300,000 worth of stuff destroyed in EVE Online batlte" it helps with giving a perspective on the effort that went into building the sandcastles that were mercilessly kicked down.

EVE is ultimately a video game, of course. All the time you sink into it is worth as much as the time you spend watching TV or playing games. It's an entertaining social activity, nothing more.




I can see the upside to your point, but the downside is that following such news comes a lot of handwringing about "gilded ages" and "rich white guys playing games". I'm expecting a headline "20 titans destroyed, women and minorities impacted the most".

So in addition to the bad reputation of the game for the other reasons, comes this equally bad impression that we are all rich playboys with money to burn for our jollies while children starve to death in that gap between our mansion and the 5 car garage.

It does not take much effort to see how easily and how stupidly "the masses" (say it fast and what does it sound like?) misinterpret the "ISK destroyed = $$ spent" metric. It becomes yet one more thing I had to explain more than once and such one more reason why I don't tell anybody I play this game any more.



The Cyclone is my favorite ship. I have a Cyclone in RL (a Mercury Cyclone GT - very rare) and I look forlornly at the EvE sticker I bought 5 years ago with the intent to put it in the back window of the car.

Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#42 - 2014-08-20 16:23:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
Andski wrote:
It depends on the context. When news outlets report "$300,000 worth of stuff destroyed in EVE Online batlte" it helps with giving a perspective on the effort that went into building the sandcastles that were mercilessly kicked down.

EVE is ultimately a video game, of course. All the time you sink into it is worth as much as the time you spend watching TV or playing games. It's an entertaining social activity, nothing more.




I can see the upside to your point, but the downside is that following such news comes a lot of handwringing about "gilded ages" and "rich white guys playing games". I'm expecting a headline "20 titans destroyed, women and minorities impacted the most".

So in addition to the bad reputation of the game for the other reasons, comes this equally bad impression that we are all rich playboys with money to burn for our jollies while children starve to death in that gap between our mansion and the 5 car garage.

It does not take much effort to see how easily and how stupidly "the masses" (say it fast and what does it sound like?) misinterpret the "ISK destroyed = $$ spent" metric. It becomes yet one more thing I had to explain more than once and such one more reason why I don't tell anybody I play this game any more.



The Cyclone is my favorite ship. I have a Cyclone in RL (a Mercury Cyclone GT - very rare) and I look forlornly at the EvE sticker I bought 5 years ago with the intent to put it in the back window of the car.


Ok, 2 points here.

#1. If you are gonna smoke that "Good Green" before and while posting, remember to take a break from time to time, else you get kind of loopy and things like the value of spaceships in a video game may start to worry you.

#2, If someone points out to you that you are a rich play boy playing a video game while minorities suffer, tell them you know a black guy (with a white girl avatar) that plays the game and he says it's ok for you to play EVE.
There, i just handed you a minority pass, useful to get through such situations and also good for a 10% discount at any barbeque joint, which should be easy to find as all of them or on Martin Luther King street in every big city in America.

If that don't work, then feel free to tell them to **** off then pick one of your cars from your 5 car garage and drive away.

Twisted
Velicitia
XS Tech
#43 - 2014-08-20 17:42:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Velicitia
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:

So in addition to the bad reputation of the game for the other reasons, comes this equally bad impression that we are all rich playboys with money to burn for our jollies while children starve to death in that gap between our mansion and the 5 car garage.



1. Why is your garage not attached to (or under) your mansion?
2. Why would you have riffraff like that anywhere near your mansion?


(edit --oops, forgot the [sarcasm] tags)

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Xercodo
Cruor Angelicus
#44 - 2014-08-20 18:00:26 UTC
So here in this sense it's about equating everything.

Now lets take the concept of "Time is money" to a literal level. PLEX is an item that is worth gameTIME. ANd you buy that time, with ISK or RL money.

But really the major concept behind that saying as well as many things in EVE is "opportunity cost". So to illustrate this I'll use a simple hourly salary.

Say you make $10 an hour, but could also work for a job that makes $20 an hour. In this case someone might consider that you're losing $10 for every hour spent doing the first job. Of course you're not literally losing any money, you're just gaining less of it. In this case it's a loss compared to the potential money that could have been made.

Now for EVE, the simplest way to look at it is so imagine that ISK is real (not the Icelandic Krona, that's already real). We simply take the USD cost of a PLEX and the ISK cost of a PLEX and equate it so that you have a sort of exchange rate.

Since we can equate the 30 days of game time to a value (using our literal example above) we can assume every second of the subscription is worth about 308.64 ISK per second.

By this logic you can then essentially put an ISK cost on every second spent to make something happen or to any ship you have built or bought. And since that ISK can be equated to USD with PLEX the same values can be applied.

The Drake is a Lie
Tassin en Lone
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#45 - 2014-08-20 19:59:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Tassin en Lone
$100 can be exchanged for $100, anywhere, anytime

The above is the sole exception in which value is accredited in an objective manner. All other comparisons in which an item's intrinsic worth is evaluated is subjective, regardless of whether the item is of a material, digital or even abstract nature.

Flowers, cars, houses, dogs, internet spaceships .... they all have a value that is dependent upon a personal desire to acquire the aforementioned. If a garage attempts to sell a car for $20.000 but nobody bothers to pay the asking price, then the car simply isn't worth $20.000.

To the OP I would like to propose a deal in which we exchange her Titan for my $5. Pretty sweet deal huh, especially considering that the Titan has no real life monetary value to it!

No?

How much would it take for you to part with it?

PS Don't have a Titan? Don't worry about it, I don't have any $ either.

Carebear Extraordinaire
Desivo Delta Visseroff
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#46 - 2014-08-20 20:27:39 UTC
Because of PLEX

I was hunting for sick loot, but all I could get my hands on were 50 corpses[:|]..............[:=d]
Sentamon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#47 - 2014-08-20 21:43:38 UTC
Why do people believe paper money issued by governments has "real value"?

It's because it's a representation of your labors that you can trade with others for other things of perceived real value.

~ Professional Forum Alt  ~
Atticus Aurilen
Doomheim
#48 - 2014-08-21 00:58:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Atticus Aurilen
Jenni LaCroix wrote:


Why do people believe ISK has a real life money value?



Because it does. People sell isk for $$$ all over the place and make real world profits.
The goal is of course to eliminate all such profiteers but such a task is rather daunting since it is prohibited by terms of an agreement as apposed to laws of the land.

It would(and i'm sure has) made for some excellent term papers.
I'm actually amazed that CCP has even let this thread live as this topic here is more frowned upon than communism in national socialist Germany.
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#49 - 2014-08-21 01:02:20 UTC
BoBoZoBo wrote:


TL:DR - Time is money. And what people want have real value.


Honestly, what I do not understand is why people do not get this.


The courts get it and in the end their opinion matters more than any random group of forum trolling gamers :D

Regardless of what game EULA's say or various forum lawyers claim, EULA are merely terms in a contract between the player and the gaming company.

Courts throughout the world are starting to assess in-game assets as a thing with real world value (usually assessed by time take to acquire it) in criminal, contract and equity law.
Charles Muffins
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#50 - 2014-08-21 01:24:51 UTC
Lol I'll post bail with a Titan.
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#51 - 2014-08-21 01:32:59 UTC
Hasikan Miallok wrote:
BoBoZoBo wrote:


TL:DR - Time is money. And what people want have real value.


Honestly, what I do not understand is why people do not get this.


The courts get it and in the end their opinion matters more than any random group of forum trolling gamers :D

Regardless of what game EULA's say or various forum lawyers claim, EULA are merely terms in a contract between the player and the gaming company.

Courts throughout the world are starting to assess in-game assets as a thing with real world value (usually assessed by time take to acquire it) in criminal, contract and equity law.


Citations and examples required.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Grog Aftermath
Doomheim
#52 - 2014-08-21 02:56:25 UTC
Jenni LaCroix wrote:
I am trying to understand the logic here of the many eve players that believe ISK has a monetary value, but first, my two cents.



Isk doesn't have a real value.

However it does have a replacement value (i.e. how much it would cost you to replace a lost ship/equipment if buying PLEX to sell for isk) which fluctuates with the market. Which is why people tend to think of it as having a real value.
Grog Aftermath
Doomheim
#53 - 2014-08-21 03:30:52 UTC
Hasikan Miallok wrote:
BoBoZoBo wrote:


TL:DR - Time is money. And what people want have real value.


Honestly, what I do not understand is why people do not get this.


The courts get it and in the end their opinion matters more than any random group of forum trolling gamers :D

Regardless of what game EULA's say or various forum lawyers claim, EULA are merely terms in a contract between the player and the gaming company.

Courts throughout the world are starting to assess in-game assets as a thing with real world value (usually assessed by time take to acquire it) in criminal, contract and equity law.



Bolded and underlined the relevant bit.

What's the point in giving in-game items a value as the player doesn't own them the company does.

Player's can't own the items/characters because if they did it would put companies that supply the service in an impossible position.
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#54 - 2014-08-21 04:05:46 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:

Citations and examples required.


Example:

Supreme Court of the Netherlands Ruling: LJN: BQ9251, Hoge Raad , 10/00101 J

http://www.virtualpolicy.net/runescape-theft-dutch-supreme-court-decision.html

Quote:
The court ruled that:

- Virtual items have value in virtual of the effort and time invested in obtaining them
- The value in Virtual items is recognised by those that play the game (including the defendents who went to the trouble to take them)
- The Virtual items were under the exclusive control of the player – who was relieved of this control



Quote:
The court agreed that under the RuneScape terms and conditions, the virtual items in the game are owned by the publisher of RuneScape who grant the players have a ‘right to use’. However it concluded that the items in question were under the ‘exclusive dominion’ of the victim until they were removed from them, hence the position of RuneScape being owners of the items (from the perspective of intellectual property / contract law) is ‘not relevant’ in the context of the criminal case under consideration.Here the court made defence to money – which is the property of the sate but can still be stolen.



Quote:
For the moment, this matter is restricted both to The Netherlands and to the specific matter of theft. However in China and South Korea there have been similar types of cases which have made it to the courts, in these judges have displayed a general trend to grant more rights to players than are stated in their contract and to see digital objects as being akin to physical property in certain important respects. The fact that a case in the EU has got to such a senior court and has ruled along the same lines is likely to carry some weight with other cases that may occur in the West.

For details of the Chinese, Korean and other cases see tVPN’s white paper on Virtual Objects and Public Policy which examines both cases and statute in detail.

http://www.virtualpolicy.net/wp-virtual-items-public-policy.html

Grog Aftermath
Doomheim
#55 - 2014-08-21 04:21:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Grog Aftermath
Hasikan Miallok wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:

Citations and examples required.


Example:

Supreme Court of the Netherlands Ruling: LJN: BQ9251, Hoge Raad , 10/00101 J

http://www.virtualpolicy.net/runescape-theft-dutch-supreme-court-decision.html

Quote:
The court ruled that:

- Virtual items have value in virtual of the effort and time invested in obtaining them
- The value in Virtual items is recognised by those that play the game (including the defendents who went to the trouble to take them)
- The Virtual items were under the exclusive control of the player – who was relieved of this control



Quote:
The court agreed that under the RuneScape terms and conditions, the virtual items in the game are owned by the publisher of RuneScape who grant the players have a ‘right to use’. However it concluded that the items in question were under the ‘exclusive dominion’ of the victim until they were removed from them, hence the position of RuneScape being owners of the items (from the perspective of intellectual property / contract law) is ‘not relevant’ in the context of the criminal case under consideration.Here the court made defence to money – which is the property of the sate but can still be stolen.



Quote:
For the moment, this matter is restricted both to The Netherlands and to the specific matter of theft. However in China and South Korea there have been similar types of cases which have made it to the courts, in these judges have displayed a general trend to grant more rights to players than are stated in their contract and to see digital objects as being akin to physical property in certain important respects. The fact that a case in the EU has got to such a senior court and has ruled along the same lines is likely to carry some weight with other cases that may occur in the West.

For details of the Chinese, Korean and other cases see tVPN’s white paper on Virtual Objects and Public Policy which examines both cases and statute in detail.

http://www.virtualpolicy.net/wp-virtual-items-public-policy.html




Well that seems to be one of the dumbest rulings I've heard of.

Shouldn't have even got to court, should have been sorted out by Runescape.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#56 - 2014-08-21 04:36:45 UTC
Grog Aftermath wrote:
Well that seems to be one of the dumbest ruling I've heard of.

Shouldn't have even got to court, should have been sorted out by Runescape.

The main thing about that case is that it's about real-life coercion. As such, it easily falls beyond the scope of what Runescape can handle. Sure, the theft could have been trivially reversed, but a RL investigation would quite likely have been needed regardless to determine that the coercion itself took place. Otherwise, they would just have reversed (apparently) legal transactions on dubious grounds.
Big Lynx
#57 - 2014-08-21 04:38:06 UTC
Because of Somerblink Twisted
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#58 - 2014-08-21 05:21:22 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Grog Aftermath wrote:
Well that seems to be one of the dumbest ruling I've heard of.

Shouldn't have even got to court, should have been sorted out by Runescape.

The main thing about that case is that it's about real-life coercion. As such, it easily falls beyond the scope of what Runescape can handle. Sure, the theft could have been trivially reversed, but a RL investigation would quite likely have been needed regardless to determine that the coercion itself took place. Otherwise, they would just have reversed (apparently) legal transactions on dubious grounds.


True but the current thread is not about theft or whether ingame theft might be illegal (it is almost certainly not illegal if its an accepted part of the game).

The thread is about whether in-game assets can be worth real money if according to the EULA they belong to the game company.

The Netherlands case is seen in the legal world (as opposed to real world) as significant in regarding digital asset under an individuals control as having real value world. The theft thing is a side issue.

The case in question ruled that in game asset were of real world value.

Being Dutch and not a common law jurisdiction it sets no precedents in the US, but there are also US cases that are relevant. I really could not be bothered looking them up as the response in game forums is always "well that is stupid I disagree because it is dumb".
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#59 - 2014-08-21 05:22:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Alavaria Fera
Quote:
hence the position of RuneScape being owners of the items (from the perspective of intellectual property / contract law) is ‘not relevant’ in the context of the criminal case under consideration.Here the court made defence to money – which is the property of the sate but can still be stolen.

Wasted.

Does the state also own the debt it issues

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#60 - 2014-08-21 05:53:04 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
Andski wrote:
It depends on the context. When news outlets report "$300,000 worth of stuff destroyed in EVE Online batlte" it helps with giving a perspective on the effort that went into building the sandcastles that were mercilessly kicked down.

EVE is ultimately a video game, of course. All the time you sink into it is worth as much as the time you spend watching TV or playing games. It's an entertaining social activity, nothing more.




I can see the upside to your point, but the downside is that following such news comes a lot of handwringing about "gilded ages" and "rich white guys playing games". I'm expecting a headline "20 titans destroyed, women and minorities impacted the most".

So in addition to the bad reputation of the game for the other reasons, comes this equally bad impression that we are all rich playboys with money to burn for our jollies while children starve to death in that gap between our mansion and the 5 car garage.

It does not take much effort to see how easily and how stupidly "the masses" (say it fast and what does it sound like?) misinterpret the "ISK destroyed = $$ spent" metric. It becomes yet one more thing I had to explain more than once and such one more reason why I don't tell anybody I play this game any more.



The Cyclone is my favorite ship. I have a Cyclone in RL (a Mercury Cyclone GT - very rare) and I look forlornly at the EvE sticker I bought 5 years ago with the intent to put it in the back window of the car.


Ok, 2 points here.

#1. If you are gonna smoke that "Good Green" before and while posting, remember to take a break from time to time, else you get kind of loopy and things like the value of spaceships in a video game may start to worry you.

#2, If someone points out to you that you are a rich play boy playing a video game while minorities suffer, tell them you know a black guy (with a white girl avatar) that plays the game and he says it's ok for you to play EVE.
There, i just handed you a minority pass, useful to get through such situations and also good for a 10% discount at any barbeque joint, which should be easy to find as all of them or on Martin Luther King street in every big city in America.

If that don't work, then feel free to tell them to **** off then pick one of your cars from your 5 car garage and drive away.

Twisted



Can I get a laminated card? Cool

Bring back DEEEEP Space!