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Scottish vote

Author
Jay Foucalt
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#41 - 2014-08-22 19:28:12 UTC
im English and i think we should respect whatever people vote for next month

That said im actually less interested in the economic case since even if the unionists are telling the truth and Scotland would be worse off thats not necessarily a reason not to have independence. For arguments sake lets pretend England would be better off if we let Germany annex us. is anyone going to vote for that? I don't think so and without wanting to derail this, thats precisely the sort of the argument people use to leave the eu even though the long term economic prospects are apparently much better if the uk stays in and integrates more.

The part that i don't understand is that the SNP still want the pound (and to rely on the bank of England as a lender of last resort), still want the royal family, and to share and co-ordinate with the rest of the UK on defense - so really while i wouldn't dream of saying they'd be reliant on the rest of the UK in that scenario, I think they'd still be sharing a lot of important institutions that the rest of the UK would retain a controlling interest in. As a foreign country they'd stand to have less influence in them than they do now since no english, welsh or northern irish ministers or civil servants will have to consider scotland as much when making their decisions.

Correct me if im wrong but that doesn't sound like real independence to me. fair enough everything has to start somewhere and maybe in ten or twenty or fifty years down the line it'd all be different, they arent voting on making salmond president for life after all.
Indahmawar Fazmarai
#42 - 2014-08-22 22:35:07 UTC
I may be biased by our own disgraceful independentism, but I think that the real reason behind independentism in this time and world it's a wish to be head of a mouse rather than tail of a lion -a mere megalomanic desire by certain individuals who think fo THEIR wellness as Supreme Ruler rather than of the disgraces that suppose to the people being a tiny irrelevant third rate country in Europe's backyard.

How many Chinese MAYORS rule over more pople than a presumed "President of Scotland" (or Catalonia!) would do?
Khergit Deserters
Crom's Angels
#43 - 2014-08-22 23:35:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Khergit Deserters
As a descendent of 'Scotch-Irish' people who immigrated to the Appalachia America in the early 19th century, and the worst of whom eventually ended up in Texas, I feel that I... have absolutely no say at all in this matter.
Shirley Serious
Gutter Press
#44 - 2014-08-23 05:53:40 UTC
Jay Foucalt wrote:

The part that i don't understand is that the SNP still want the pound (and to rely on the bank of England as a lender of last resort), still want the royal family, and to share and co-ordinate with the rest of the UK on defense - so really while i wouldn't dream of saying they'd be reliant on the rest of the UK in that scenario, I think they'd still be sharing a lot of important institutions that the rest of the UK would retain a controlling interest in. As a foreign country they'd stand to have less influence in them than they do now since no english, welsh or northern irish ministers or civil servants will have to consider scotland as much when making their decisions.

Correct me if im wrong but that doesn't sound like real independence to me. fair enough everything has to start somewhere and maybe in ten or twenty or fifty years down the line it'd all be different, they arent voting on making salmond president for life after all.


That part is a campaign tactic. By promising to keep the pound, the Queen, and various other things that are UK-wide, they hope to win over some people who don't like the ideas promoted by other elements of the pro-independence campaign - the Scottish Socialist Party for example wants a socialist republic.

should a yes vote happen, then the plan is for referendum after referendum after referendum until "the correct result is achieved", which includes removal of the monarchy.

This plan largely relies on the creation of the attitude that the other countries of the UK are "the enemy", and "cannot be trusted". Every time that one of the shared institutions makes a decision that does not favour the 8% of the population that is Scotland, then it will be trumpeted as "Evil anti-scottish thieving by the enemy", and so on.

There are other plans, such as gaelicisation of the entire country, aspiring to replace football with shinty as the national favourite sport, and so on.

Just the facts.

Bagrat Skalski
Koinuun Kotei
#45 - 2014-08-23 07:20:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Bagrat Skalski
Alice Saki
Nocturnal Romance
Cynosural Field Theory.
#46 - 2014-08-24 08:16:35 UTC
I have decided to Vote No...

FREEZE! Drop the LIKES AND WALK AWAY! - Currenly rebuilding gaming machine, I will Return.

Shirley Serious
Gutter Press
#47 - 2014-08-24 12:04:17 UTC
Adunh Slavy wrote:
Shirley Serious wrote:
Adunh Slavy wrote:
If the Scots go independent, but then turn around and join the EU, that would be a huge blunder.

... But that's the policy that is being promoted by the pro-independence campaign.


Then it's not really an independence campaign, is it?


Quote:
Mr Salmond said he wanted to leave the United Kingdom but join the European Union because the latter was not an “incorporating union” in which national identity would disappear.


Given that the whole EU project was in response to the nationalism which had just caused the biggest war in Europe, I am unsure why anyone can believe that national identity would be a big thing in the EU of the future.

6 (or less) MEPs out of 750. The bulk of the EU population live in the vicinity of Belgium, West Germany, NE France, it is inevitable that EU politics will revolve around the Euro-core, where most of the economic activity and population are. Scotland is on the far edge of Europe, it will never be any European parliament's main concern.

Just the facts.

Zimmy Zeta
Perkone
Caldari State
#48 - 2014-08-25 07:07:45 UTC
Alice Saki wrote:
I have decided to Vote No...


Understandable.
Your choice was between the Empire and the Rebel Alliance, and you went for the guys with the cooler uniforms Blink.

I'd like to apologize for the poor quality of the post above and sincerely hope you didn't waste your time reading it. Yes, I do feel bad about it.

Pepper Swift
Perkone
Caldari State
#49 - 2014-08-25 07:28:12 UTC
Alice Saki wrote:
I have decided to Vote No...


I would probably vote no too..

But im not scottish.. so I have no say in the matter ...

What I need most.. is a day between Saturday and Sunday...

If life gives you melons, you might be dyslexic

Lee Mcgee
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#50 - 2014-08-25 11:17:07 UTC
I'm English and hope to god Scotland votes yes. Big smile
jason hill
Red vs Blue Flight Academy
#51 - 2014-08-26 19:29:53 UTC
on a plus note ..if Scotland go for independence ...we will never see a labour government in power again ...cos that's where their power base is Big smileBig smileBig smileBig smile
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#52 - 2014-08-26 19:52:24 UTC
jason hill wrote:
on a plus note ..if Scotland go for independence ...we will never see a labour government in power again ...cos that's where their power base is Big smileBig smileBig smileBig smile
Brucie's bonus prize :yay:

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack

Tassin en Lone
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#53 - 2014-08-26 19:54:32 UTC
More countries equals more politicians equals more wasted tax money. The EU may have its flaws and might need some restructuring, but a united Europe is the way to go, first Europe, then the world, then Mars. Big smile

Carebear Extraordinaire

Maeltstome
Ten Thousand Days
#54 - 2014-09-03 16:39:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Maeltstome
Kitty Bear wrote:
Own Currency sorted ?
Own Head of State sorted ?

What level of taxation do you think will be needed to support :
- Education
- Health
- Welfare
- Border Controls


Because remember, freedom from the UK means going it alone.
You want Independence, don't expect the English, Welsh & N.I citizens to foot the bills because that's NOT independence.


On the plus side there will be fewer seats needed in Parliament ...
Sure your politicians can sit in the viewing area, but they will be foreign nationals and therefore get no vote on matters regarding UK law/policy.



I'm pretty sure a lot of people haven't really considered this side of Scottish independence very much at all.




Ditto to the Welsh .. as they state this desire quite frequently too.


Scotland already have their own NHS, Education system, Councils etc. etc... They also pay more in taxes into the UK as a whole while receiving less of those taxes back to spend.

The Trident facility also costs > £600K per DAY to maintain and actively blocks drilling for oil in that area - which (just like all of the UK's costal area's) is terrible news due to shipyards dieing and more and more Business being moved to London - more jobs in these area's are desperately needed (unlike nukes, they aren't as mandatory to feed families)

In the history of the world, only 1 country has discovered Oil and gotten poorer: Scotland. You seem to be spouting Pro-Union propaganda that is incredibly biased.

But this issue seems to have brought out the worst in the UK: People made up there mind without actually researching the things being said.

Tassin en Lone wrote:
More countries equals more politicians equals more wasted tax money. The EU may have its flaws and might need some restructuring, but a united Europe is the way to go, first Europe, then the world, then Mars. Big smile


The UK just voted in the the EU parlimentary elections for a party called UKIP (they have the majority of seats from the UK) - they have stated they want to leave the EU essentially. Scottish votes where < 6000 across the whole country for this party, but due to representation in England they now have to face a possible future out of the EU, which they haven't voted for.

Shirley Serious wrote:
That part is a campaign tactic. By promising to keep the pound, the Queen, and various other things that are UK-wide, they hope to win over some people who don't like the ideas promoted by other elements of the pro-independence campaign - the Scottish Socialist Party for example wants a socialist republic.

should a yes vote happen, then the plan is for referendum after referendum after referendum until "the correct result is achieved", which includes removal of the monarchy.

This plan largely relies on the creation of the attitude that the other countries of the UK are "the enemy", and "cannot be trusted". Every time that one of the shared institutions makes a decision that does not favour the 8% of the population that is Scotland, then it will be trumpeted as "Evil anti-scottish thieving by the enemy", and so on.

There are other plans, such as gaelicisation of the entire country, aspiring to replace football with shinty as the national favourite sport, and so on.


Everything you just said is unfounded and ironically more campaign tactics. There is a reason Scottish people have dubbed the 'No' Campaign "Project Fear".

The UK is a mess. Can you blame them for wanting to try and do it better themself? Instead fo swallowing Yes/No lies from both sides, go look up real information. The US has the same issue - they have zsero personal freedoms these days thanks to 'Anti-Terrorism Measures' but the 2 party system doesn't support change, only the propagation of the norm. You can thank congress for that.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#55 - 2014-09-03 19:11:28 UTC
Maeltstome wrote:
Kitty Bear wrote:
Own Currency sorted ?
Own Head of State sorted ?

What level of taxation do you think will be needed to support :
- Education
- Health
- Welfare
- Border Controls


Because remember, freedom from the UK means going it alone.
You want Independence, don't expect the English, Welsh & N.I citizens to foot the bills because that's NOT independence.


On the plus side there will be fewer seats needed in Parliament ...
Sure your politicians can sit in the viewing area, but they will be foreign nationals and therefore get no vote on matters regarding UK law/policy.



I'm pretty sure a lot of people haven't really considered this side of Scottish independence very much at all.




Ditto to the Welsh .. as they state this desire quite frequently too.


Scotland already have their own NHS, Education system, Councils etc. etc... They also pay more in taxes into the UK as a whole while receiving less of those taxes back to spend.

The Trident facility also costs > £600K per DAY to maintain and actively blocks drilling for oil in that area - which (just like all of the UK's costal area's) is terrible news due to shipyards dieing and more and more Business being moved to London - more jobs in these area's are desperately needed (unlike nukes, they aren't as mandatory to feed families)

In the history of the world, only 1 country has discovered Oil and gotten poorer: Scotland. You seem to be spouting Pro-Union propaganda that is incredibly biased.

But this issue seems to have brought out the worst in the UK: People made up there mind without actually researching the things being said.

Tassin en Lone wrote:
More countries equals more politicians equals more wasted tax money. The EU may have its flaws and might need some restructuring, but a united Europe is the way to go, first Europe, then the world, then Mars. Big smile


The UK just voted in the the EU parlimentary elections for a party called UKIP (they have the majority of seats from the UK) - they have stated they want to leave the EU essentially. Scottish votes where < 6000 across the whole country for this party, but due to representation in England they now have to face a possible future out of the EU, which they haven't voted for.

Shirley Serious wrote:
That part is a campaign tactic. By promising to keep the pound, the Queen, and various other things that are UK-wide, they hope to win over some people who don't like the ideas promoted by other elements of the pro-independence campaign - the Scottish Socialist Party for example wants a socialist republic.

should a yes vote happen, then the plan is for referendum after referendum after referendum until "the correct result is achieved", which includes removal of the monarchy.

This plan largely relies on the creation of the attitude that the other countries of the UK are "the enemy", and "cannot be trusted". Every time that one of the shared institutions makes a decision that does not favour the 8% of the population that is Scotland, then it will be trumpeted as "Evil anti-scottish thieving by the enemy", and so on.

There are other plans, such as gaelicisation of the entire country, aspiring to replace football with shinty as the national favourite sport, and so on.


Everything you just said is unfounded and ironically more campaign tactics. There is a reason Scottish people have dubbed the 'No' Campaign "Project Fear".

The UK is a mess. Can you blame them for wanting to try and do it better themself? Instead fo swallowing Yes/No lies from both sides, go look up real information. The US has the same issue - they have zsero personal freedoms these days thanks to 'Anti-Terrorism Measures' but the 2 party system doesn't support change, only the propagation of the norm. You can thank congress for that.


You say don't listen to no campaign bias then spout yes campaign bullshit about about how scotland is the only oil rich nation to be poorer than before the oil was found.

Tell me, is scotland richer now than in the 60s? The answer is yes, it is. As for the nukes, yes they are expensive, yes they don't put food on the table but they do provide one very important thing. They stopped WW3. As the Falklands showed, we cannot rely upon America to have our back. That big sub base? It employs tens of thousands of scots in a area lacking in jobs.

Look around, the world is not a good place. Russia has invaded Europe, it is sending Strategic bombers into UK airspace on a near 6 week basis. And Salmond wants to break up the biggest Military power in Europe and cripple its ability to both defend itself and its overseas territories as well as its ability to deploy overseas.
jason hill
Red vs Blue Flight Academy
#56 - 2014-09-03 19:35:15 UTC
this topic reminds of a conversation a certain irish man by the name of Gerry adams had ...and whilst I don't espouse the polotics of this person he hit the nail on the by saying "we irish have fought for centuries for independence from the british yolk ... only to sign it away to some faceless beurocrats in another continent"

now that's not the exact thing that he said as im paraphrasing and it was a while ago when he said it ... but it sort of rings true ...talk about history repeating itself
Andski
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#57 - 2014-09-03 19:40:31 UTC
It seems our oversized aircraft carrier in Europe is having issues again

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar

Grimpak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#58 - 2014-09-03 19:45:41 UTC
Andski wrote:
It seems our oversized aircraft carrier in Europe is having issues again

and as an european that according to some, lives in Spain's ghetto, I must say: meh, same old. anything new?

[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]

[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right

Kitty Bear
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#59 - 2014-09-03 21:57:53 UTC
Maeltstome wrote:


Scotland already have their own NHS, Education system, Councils etc. etc... They also pay more in taxes into the UK as a whole while receiving less of those taxes back to spend.

The Trident facility also costs > £600K per DAY to maintain and actively blocks drilling for oil in that area - which (just like all of the UK's costal area's) is terrible news due to shipyards dieing and more and more Business being moved to London - more jobs in these area's are desperately needed (unlike nukes, they aren't as mandatory to feed families)

In the history of the world, only 1 country has discovered Oil and gotten poorer: Scotland. You seem to be spouting Pro-Union propaganda that is incredibly biased.

But this issue seems to have brought out the worst in the UK: People made up there mind without actually researching the things being said.



Tell me about your prescription charges ....... you do have prescription charges right ??

Any idea how much annually that actually costs. ?

Thought not.


Maeltstome
Ten Thousand Days
#60 - 2014-09-04 15:05:57 UTC
Kitty Bear wrote:
Maeltstome wrote:


Scotland already have their own NHS, Education system, Councils etc. etc... They also pay more in taxes into the UK as a whole while receiving less of those taxes back to spend.

The Trident facility also costs > £600K per DAY to maintain and actively blocks drilling for oil in that area - which (just like all of the UK's costal area's) is terrible news due to shipyards dieing and more and more Business being moved to London - more jobs in these area's are desperately needed (unlike nukes, they aren't as mandatory to feed families)

In the history of the world, only 1 country has discovered Oil and gotten poorer: Scotland. You seem to be spouting Pro-Union propaganda that is incredibly biased.

But this issue seems to have brought out the worst in the UK: People made up there mind without actually researching the things being said.



Tell me about your prescription charges ....... you do have prescription charges right ??

Any idea how much annually that actually costs. ?

Thought not.




You're assume I'm both Scottish and a Yes voter. I've not said I'm either.

The costs of everything in the Scottish budget right now falls within, you guessed it, their budget. Westminster gives SCotland and allowance from tax income to run the country. Everything is seperate and payed for from that budget. Even with the expensive prescriptions you're talking about, it still falls within the Scottish budget.

The Scottish budget is also less than the tax they pay into the union.

Ergo financially Scotland could maintaing the same standard of life as an Independant country, using the same tax system with 4Bil a year left in change.

I'm not spouting "yes" propaganda. I just read Independent financial reports and stuff that westminster has released WITHOUT listening to the conclusions that have been drawn by either side.

Don't be a victim of System Justification