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Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Doomheim
#81 - 2014-08-20 10:05:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Veikitamo Gesakaarin
I find it odd the talk of treason when I at least was given a standard Caldari State issued corporate Clearance Document upon being registered under the auspices of CONCORD. The description of which exists in SCC databases as:

These documents clear the holder from numerous by-laws and responsibilities within the Caldari State and abroad.

They are issued to capsuleers, who typically operate above the law and are accountable to few people. All this document does is formalize that reality, and as such, is entirely redundant and pointless.

As such it logically follows that any Caldari capsuleer granted their Clearance Documents operating within the CONCORD regulatory framework cannot ever be held to the legal charge of treason in any form whatsoever insofar as they are not held accountable to the laws of the Caldari State or a Corporate Court.

This certainly diminishes any accusations of treason on the IGS against a Caldari capsuleer as being nothing more than, "I disagree with your opinion, therefore you are a traitor (somehow)."

Kurilaivonen|Concern
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#82 - 2014-08-20 13:40:31 UTC
Xindi Kraid wrote:
Diana Kim wrote:
Xindi Kraid wrote:

It would be incorrect to say that I think the worlds are unimportant. I would very much prefer Black Rise not be under threat by Federation aligned groups, but the war as a whole is a sham. CONCORD isn't going to allow anybody to actually permanently secure those systems for the State, and the war front constant moves back and forth in a clearly delineated area. You can't sue for peace by putting pressure on the other party by driving into their space because you can't cross the lines CONCORD has drawn in the sand. Given that, this "war" has no hope of actually achieving anything.

It is not CONCORD's duty to defend these systems after their occupation will be lifted, it is Caldari duty.
What we could achieve, is to push out gallentean occupants from our worlds, and this should be our goal number one. The second goal would be to maintain patrols and defending our colonies from further attacks by gallentean occupants.

Caldari shouldn't rely on CONCORD, because we are soldiers, all of us. And we will be securing these systems, not CONCORD.

For some people, it might seem to be "impossible burden" to keep defending our territories, and I can say only one thing about these peoples: Shame to them!

I never said we should rely on CONCORD. In fact I would very much prefer it is CONCORD would stop interfering all the time. Supposedly they exist to mediate peace between the empires, but not only have they repeatedly failed at that mission, they are the ones who set up the proxy war and had the empires create capsuleer militias, and I see no signs of them stopping it.

The State should secure its own borders; my point was that CONCORD is deliberately making that a nearly impossible task by encouraging and legitimizing invasion, and preventing State forces from permanently securing the area.

While you, kind sir, are making points, Caldari are fighting for these points.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#83 - 2014-08-20 13:45:53 UTC
Jinari Otsito wrote:
Diana Kim wrote:
I feel like this : https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2906627#post2906627 should be a perfect addition to your portfolio, so everyone would know that by dealing with you, they are dealing with traitor of the State.


Yes, it should be part of my portfolio. One of the proudest moments of my life, in fact. Standing true to the ideals of the State and my parent Mega, when the State itself was in a situation where it most certainly weren't adhering to the same ideals and principles. My State rose to the occasion and purged the corruption, much in part to those who knuckled up.

My own contributions to the Heth debacle were exceedingly minor given that I am a very small fish in a very big pond, but this little fish stood tall that day, alongside a lot of good men and women - citizens all - who finally couldn't bear seeing their State tore down like that any more.

It's a pity you never rose to the occasion. I think the State could use someone like you if only you had ever woke up from your mad little dreams.

While you were talking about YOUR State, I was talking about Caldari State, where loyalty means something, and where people respect heroes and fallen. Standing tall means holding loyalties disregarding what happens, and not flopping and bending, evading your duty, when you "didn't like" something that was happening, that was hurting your "ideals".

And... being proud being a traitor?... You are simply disgusting.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
Jinari Otsito
Otsito Mining and Manufacture
#84 - 2014-08-20 14:26:43 UTC
Loyalty to the State means amongst other things protecting it from its enemies. Those without, and those within. Heth became an enemy of the State, and tried to warp and twist the State into something horrible. He failed, because the State withstood his assault and broke him. My ideals and principles are those of the State. I sincerely doubt I will ever betray it, unlike Heth and those who worship the would-be Caldari Emperor.

I am proud of being loyal. Remaining loyal. Having never been anything but loyal.

To the State. Not to the megalomanic madman who tried to kill it.

Prime Node. Ask me about augmentation.
Claudia Osyn
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#85 - 2014-08-20 15:58:56 UTC
Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:
Only in the Federation can one talk of fighting for freedom while realizing the manifest destiny of its military industries to restrict liberties and spy on its own citizens in the name of security.

It sounds an awful lot like you're assuming the other governments don't do this....

A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you'll go.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#86 - 2014-08-20 16:09:40 UTC
Claudia Osyn wrote:
Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:
Only in the Federation can one talk of fighting for freedom while realizing the manifest destiny of its military industries to restrict liberties and spy on its own citizens in the name of security.

It sounds an awful lot like you're assuming the other governments don't do this....


The State, generally, doesn't talk of 'fighting for freedom' except in limited cases. We're also very up front as to limits on liberties and privacy.

It's not the actions, Claudia, it's the hypocrisy.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#87 - 2014-08-20 16:16:00 UTC
Jinari Otsito wrote:
Loyalty to the State means amongst other things protecting it from its enemies. Those without, and those within. Heth became an enemy of the State...

Heth-haan was the most greatest hero, that the State had. He lived and died as Caldari and patriot.
Only low disrespectful traitor scum would consider him an enemy.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Doomheim
#88 - 2014-08-20 16:54:42 UTC
Claudia Osyn wrote:
Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:
Only in the Federation can one talk of fighting for freedom while realizing the manifest destiny of its military industries to restrict liberties and spy on its own citizens in the name of security.

It sounds an awful lot like you're assuming the other governments don't do this....


Please dear, it is simply a point of idle amusement for me. I can understand why it is so, and it is simply the fact that in the Federation the only real or intrinsic value an individual possesses for those that wield real economic and political power is their vote and ability to pay taxes. The necessities of public appeasement through an efficient media apparatus to justify the policies of men such as Blaque and the SDII or public expenditures for men such as Roden and the Federal military industry may create contradictions between political narrative and reality, but they are contradictions enjoyable enough to watch and savour for one such as I.

Kurilaivonen|Concern
Claudia Osyn
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#89 - 2014-08-20 18:50:19 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Claudia Osyn wrote:
Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:
Only in the Federation can one talk of fighting for freedom while realizing the manifest destiny of its military industries to restrict liberties and spy on its own citizens in the name of security.

It sounds an awful lot like you're assuming the other governments don't do this....


The State, generally, doesn't talk of 'fighting for freedom' except in limited cases. We're also very up front as to limits on liberties and privacy.

It's not the actions, Claudia, it's the hypocrisy.

I'll admit the Federation isn't living up to its reputation as a bastion of liberty, but it is still a nation where we have the right to get angry and do something about it. Not bow our heads to corporate overlords or an emperor and take it. We still have the choice, and in light of having the Caldari drop a titan on our heads without warning, we choose to endure the hypocrisy for the moment.

A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you'll go.
Publius Valerius
AirGuard
LowSechnaya Sholupen
#90 - 2014-08-20 19:14:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Publius Valerius
Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:
I find it odd the talk of treason when I at least was given a standard Caldari State issued corporate Clearance Document upon being registered under the auspices of CONCORD. The description of which exists in SCC databases as:

These documents clear the holder from numerous by-laws and responsibilities within the Caldari State and abroad.

They are issued to capsuleers, who typically operate above the law and are accountable to few people. All this document does is formalize that reality, and as such, is entirely redundant and pointless.

As such it logically follows that any Caldari capsuleer granted their Clearance Documents operating within the CONCORD regulatory framework cannot ever be held to the legal charge of treason in any form whatsoever insofar as they are not held accountable to the laws of the Caldari State or a Corporate Court.

This certainly diminishes any accusations of treason on the IGS against a Caldari capsuleer as being nothing more than, "I disagree with your opinion, therefore you are a traitor (somehow)."


I wouldn't disagree. But I think where most people come from is that they don't like the idea of 'total freedom'. And they have a point, I wouldn't disagree with them either. It reminds me on an old discussion which I had with a gallente empyrean.

Quote:

Publius Valerius: "There are two great powers in New Eden: One are the forces of freedom and the others are the forces of order, and both sides fought against each other until finally the forces of evil triumph."
Gallente empyrean: "What you talking about? The forces of freedom triumph."
Publius Valerius: "Thats is exactly what I meant."

-Publius Valerius in a discussion about empyreans.*


I think you walk a very dangerous line between 'freedom and order'. Yes, as I do, as well as many other too (without even knowing it). So don't see this post as contra argument, see it more friendly warning, that there is some danger in your thoughts.

I would love to have those classes ingame. See here:

http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/376566/march-07-2011/joshua-foer
Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Doomheim
#91 - 2014-08-20 20:36:08 UTC
Mr. Valerius,

Hubris can often inculcate an inability to see the bars of a gilded cage one lives in.

Kurilaivonen|Concern
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#92 - 2014-08-20 20:36:59 UTC
Claudia Osyn wrote:

I'll admit the Federation isn't living up to its reputation as a bastion of liberty, but it is still a nation where we have the right to get angry and do something about it. Not bow our heads to corporate overlords or an emperor and take it. We still have the choice, and in light of having the Caldari drop a titan on our heads without warning, we choose to endure the hypocrisy for the moment.


At the risk of repeating a conversation that we've all heard and participated in FAR too often, that Titan came there because the Federation brought it there, Claudia. How they ever thought they could get away with stealing the Homeworld of a sovereign people beggars belief.

Look at what the Matari did to get their Home back. Why did you think we wouldn't get as far for ours?

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Jinari Otsito
Otsito Mining and Manufacture
#93 - 2014-08-20 20:42:48 UTC
Let's just not go quite as far as the bedoodled ones, though. They have a cause for their warfare, we are on quite a bit more dodgy ground there. There's very little to be gained from further antagonizing each other and quite a bit to be gained from making more peace overtures.

Most of our issues are frankly settled, if we can stop letting bad moments of recent history be the deciding factor in our interactions.

Prime Node. Ask me about augmentation.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#94 - 2014-08-20 21:11:38 UTC
The solution is, as you say, right in front of our faces and remarkably clear. And great strides have been taken towards it.

Once the return of Home is complete, I'd like to think we could normalise relations more officially.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Claudia Osyn
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#95 - 2014-08-20 22:22:44 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Claudia Osyn wrote:

I'll admit the Federation isn't living up to its reputation as a bastion of liberty, but it is still a nation where we have the right to get angry and do something about it. Not bow our heads to corporate overlords or an emperor and take it. We still have the choice, and in light of having the Caldari drop a titan on our heads without warning, we choose to endure the hypocrisy for the moment.


At the risk of repeating a conversation that we've all heard and participated in FAR too often, that Titan came there because the Federation brought it there, Claudia. How they ever thought they could get away with stealing the Homeworld of a sovereign people beggars belief.

Look at what the Matari did to get their Home back. Why did you think we wouldn't get as far for ours?

It's not the "why" but the "how" that should have the spotlight. I can see the federations current state of paranoia as being somewhat reasonable. We know better then to expect an act like that to go unanswered, but we should have been able to stop it even with CONCORD preoccupied. But as Ms. Otsito pointed out, the kinks are staring to work out and we really have no reason to fight anymore.... Well, except over-inflated egos, money, and a few people who can't let go of hurt feelings....

A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you'll go.
Bryen Verrisai
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#96 - 2014-08-21 06:11:57 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
At the risk of repeating a conversation that we've all heard and participated in FAR too often, that Titan came there because the Federation brought it there, Claudia. How they ever thought they could get away with stealing the Homeworld of a sovereign people beggars belief.

Look at what the Matari did to get their Home back. Why did you think we wouldn't get as far for ours?

I don't recall any Intaki threatening to blow up entire planets when the Caldari sold off our home to the highest bidder.

Just sayin', there were more options than "give up" and "kill everybody and everything if we don't get what we want (and maybe still do that anyway if we do get what we want)".
Desiderya
Blue Canary
Watch This
#97 - 2014-08-21 11:02:16 UTC
Bryen Verrisai wrote:

I don't recall any Intaki threatening to blow up entire planets when the Caldari sold off our home to the highest bidder.


Agreed! I also don't remember any Caldari asking for pachyderm extinction following the great invasion of pink elephants in '99.

Ruthlessness is the kindness of the wise.
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#98 - 2014-08-21 12:31:45 UTC
Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:
I find it odd the talk of treason when I at least was given a standard Caldari State issued corporate Clearance Document upon being registered under the auspices of CONCORD. The description of which exists in SCC databases as:

These documents clear the holder from numerous by-laws and responsibilities within the Caldari State and abroad.

They are issued to capsuleers, who typically operate above the law and are accountable to few people. All this document does is formalize that reality, and as such, is entirely redundant and pointless.

As such it logically follows that any Caldari capsuleer granted their Clearance Documents operating within the CONCORD regulatory framework cannot ever be held to the legal charge of treason in any form whatsoever insofar as they are not held accountable to the laws of the Caldari State or a Corporate Court.

Now, if you would start thinking logically yourself, you would realize that part "accountable to few people" signifies coverage of the statement, and, obviously, these "few people" aren't authorities in the State.

However, unlike outcasts as yourself, there are still many peoples who hold their citizenship papers and still serve the State and not their little egos. When you hold citizenship paper, it makes you accountable to the corporation that issued the said paper, and thus you will answer to laws of the parent corporation as a paper holder.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#99 - 2014-08-21 14:48:11 UTC
Bryen Verrisai wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
At the risk of repeating a conversation that we've all heard and participated in FAR too often, that Titan came there because the Federation brought it there, Claudia. How they ever thought they could get away with stealing the Homeworld of a sovereign people beggars belief.

Look at what the Matari did to get their Home back. Why did you think we wouldn't get as far for ours?

I don't recall any Intaki threatening to blow up entire planets when the Caldari sold off our home to the highest bidder.

Just sayin', there were more options than "give up" and "kill everybody and everything if we don't get what we want (and maybe still do that anyway if we do get what we want)".


Okay, damn you, we'll have this conversation AGAIN then...

Of course Heth was the first man to order an orbital bombardment of Caldari Prime, right? Oh no, wait... I believe the Federation ordered and carried out weeks long bombardments, didn't they? Of civilian targets. Shooting down unarmed freighters crammed with civilians.

In any case, the Senate sold off Intaki to the highest bidder when they made it part of the CEWPA warzone, not the Caldari. The fact that your Homeworld is placed in such a ridiculous position is certainly NOT the fault of the Caldari State and, through Ishukone Corporation, you certainly have absolutely no cause to complain about how it is managed when we do control that system.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#100 - 2014-08-21 15:08:38 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Bryen Verrisai wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
At the risk of repeating a conversation that we've all heard and participated in FAR too often, that Titan came there because the Federation brought it there, Claudia. How they ever thought they could get away with stealing the Homeworld of a sovereign people beggars belief.

Look at what the Matari did to get their Home back. Why did you think we wouldn't get as far for ours?

I don't recall any Intaki threatening to blow up entire planets when the Caldari sold off our home to the highest bidder.

Just sayin', there were more options than "give up" and "kill everybody and everything if we don't get what we want (and maybe still do that anyway if we do get what we want)".


Okay, damn you, we'll have this conversation AGAIN then...

Of course Heth was the first man to order an orbital bombardment of Caldari Prime, right? Oh no, wait... I believe the Federation ordered and carried out weeks long bombardments, didn't they? Of civilian targets. Shooting down unarmed freighters crammed with civilians.

Heth never bombed Caldari Prime, Gallenteans did.
Lets finish it here.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.