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Community Concerns Regarding SOMERblink

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Enaris Kerle
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#881 - 2014-08-20 10:04:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Enaris Kerle
Brahan Seer wrote:
Thats a pretty big stretch don't yeah think? like come on man :/

He gave millions to cancer research, I think that's a lot more charitable than sponsoring imaginary spaceship events. Then again, Somer probably didn't steal from his employees' retirement funds.

Brahan Seer wrote:
So do what was done last time. Just don't have the plex service. maybe ding the somer corp wallet for the isk and be done with it. Would that not be the fairest corse of action without hurting the community that plays somer?

How often is Somer allowed to RMT before it outweighs his positive contributions to the community? You probably don't know him, but Elusif gave a lot of ISK to Goonwaffe members as christmas presents. For some reason CCP still thought that he should be banned for RMT.

Gallente born and raised, and tutored as a pleasure slave and courtesan to the exotic tastes of the Amarri court. Jade's career veered violently off course when a diplomatic envoy's transport was blown to pieces in mysterious circumstances and she was rescued from the escape pods by the enigmatic genetic mastermind Athule Snanm.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#882 - 2014-08-20 10:06:28 UTC
Brahan Seer wrote:

So do what was done last time. Just don't have the plex service. maybe ding the somer corp wallet for the isk and be done with it. Would that not be the fairest corse of action without hurting the community that plays somer?

Last time was a change in a long standing policy. That everyone was allowed to do and a number of others were doing as well as Somer. (Just only Somer thumbed their noses at CCP and abused the grace period)

This time was a clear cut case of Somer abusing the system, and the E-mails don't show a thing about what was actually approved other than a 'May Promotion'
Jerin Crank
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#883 - 2014-08-20 10:07:22 UTC
Brahan Seer wrote:

So do what was done last time. Just don't have the plex service. maybe ding the somer corp wallet for the isk and be done with it. Would that not be the fairest corse of action without hurting the community that plays somer?


Give him special treatment (like last time), so that we don't hurt the community?
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#884 - 2014-08-20 10:07:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Andski
Brahan Seer wrote:
So do what was done last time. Just don't have the plex service. maybe ding the somer corp wallet for the isk and be done with it. Would that not be the fairest corse of action without hurting the community that plays somer?


How would that be the fairest course of action? If you sell ISK for $$, you get a permanent ban. If I sell ISK for $$, I get a permanent ban. Why should they be more lenient with Somer, who have burned all their goodwill by 1) increasing the bonus to 1b blink credits last time CCP told them to stop, 2) publishing their correspondence with a CCP VP and 3) making hostile accusations against CCP when it was Somer that acted in bad faith?

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Baneken
Arctic Light Inc.
Arctic Light
#885 - 2014-08-20 10:09:42 UTC
So to sum it up Somer tried to play CCP sales rep, got burned for it and closed the business while giving back some of those hard scammed ISK for his cows ?

Anything I missed when I skimmed the last 20 pages ?
Brahan Seer
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#886 - 2014-08-20 10:10:37 UTC
Nevyn/Enaris

Were still assuming she is guilty which we can't be certain of. Does it look good from what we do know? Absolutely not. But will just have to wait to see how it pans out.

Enaris
As far as your question I truely don't have a good answer for that. Personally I could care less about RMT to be frank. And ill leave it at that as my reason would derail this convo. I just think banning somer having blink be dead does more harm to more people than good. Yes somer closed blink not CCP I get that but the two are related obviously.
Arkady Romanov
Whole Squid
#887 - 2014-08-20 10:10:40 UTC
Baneken wrote:
So to sum it up Somer tried to play CCP sales rep, got burned for it and closed the business while giving back some of those hard scammed ISK for his cows ?

Anything I missed when I skimmed the last 20 pages ?


A lot of tears from the addicts and shills.

Whole Squid: Get Inked.
Memrox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#888 - 2014-08-20 10:11:30 UTC
Baneken wrote:
Anything I missed when I skimmed the last 20 pages ?


Pitchforks.....
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#889 - 2014-08-20 10:12:50 UTC
Derrick Miles wrote:
I have to disagree with this. RMT is not just defined by making a profit, it's the trade of any in-game items, services, or currency for out-of-game items, services, or currency. Trading the services of a Jita alt for the use of their referral would still constitute RMT.


I'm assuming that Somer was truthful when he said this:
Proposal wrote:
This is a service, in keeping with CCP's new guidelines that ETC affiliate link rewards should be service-oriented.

Indicating that CCP is OK with providing services as affiliate link rewards. Whether that's good policy or not, I'm not sure.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#890 - 2014-08-20 10:13:14 UTC
Brahan Seer wrote:
I just think banning somer having blink be dead does more harm to more people than good.


It doesn't matter because somebody (or several somebodies) will step in to fill the hole. And, if they're hopefully not solely motivated by making RL $$ like Somer, the community will be better off for it.

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Myriad Blaze
Common Sense Ltd
Nulli Secunda
#891 - 2014-08-20 10:13:41 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Myriad Blaze wrote:
1) I just read the proposal again to be sure: For what's it worth Somer followed it to the letter, meaining you are wrong.

2) The proposal is neither vague nor misleading. Even if it were, it would be in CCPs responsibility to ask about anything they think is unclear before agreeing to the proposal. Meaning you are wrong again.

3) Are you sure the VP of sales is not the person to go through with this? If she isn't shouldn't SHE know this better than anyone else and provide the correct person(s) to talk to? And if she isn't yet continues to talk to Somer as if she were, why do you believe that Somer knew better? I don't think you got this right either.

Proposal wrote:
Justification: Blink provides no extra ISK or bonus Blink credit for buying through the link

*AHEM*
50m over sell orders that is available if and only if you buy through the link is:
"extra,"
it's
"ISK,"
and it's
"for buying through the link."
i.e. exactly what Somer promised not to do.


I didn't miss that line about "no extra ISK". And if you take this one sentence out of the context of the proposal I would agree that it sounds like saying one thing but doing another. But this line isn't stand alone. And if you reread the proposal you should realize that it means "no extra ISK in addition to the price paid for the PLEX".

The problem with the proposal is that it doesn't state how the price for PLEX is set. It just says that Somer will give the "best price anywhere in EVE". With this wording Somer could offer 10 Bn per PLEX and still would be within the boundaries of the proposal. Maybe it's just me, but I think this is most obvious and both sides - CCP and Somer - should have avoided leaving this open.

RubyPorto wrote:

3) Why wouldn't Somer go to the community team who they have talked to many times before? Why go to someone far less likely to be well versed in the nuances of EVE?

Because the community team is most certainly NOT the correct counterpart in getting formal approval for such an agreement.
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#892 - 2014-08-20 10:14:11 UTC
Brahan Seer wrote:
I'm sure their is fault on both sides to some extent. I think we can all agree upon that. But what I encourage people to think about is, Just to play devils advocat for a moment. What if Somer is guilty and maliciously thought she had a loophole to make money and sell isk or whatever. has that personally affected you? Would her doing RMT out weigh the good SomerBlink has done for the community and players? If it doesn't out weigh the good how do you punish? Because realistically if you ban somer a lot of parties get punished by proxy. Is that nessesarily fair? No. But it's the reality of the situation.
Assuming you have rules in place for a reason, your only options are to either change them or enforce them.

Besides, as has been noted EVE gambling is a very attractive business with trivial barriers of entry, anybody can take Somer's place.

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
Doris Dents
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#893 - 2014-08-20 10:14:48 UTC
Since goons have done way more for EVE than Somer ever has, providing content for nearly a decade that made international press a bunch of times, can we get the ban immunity that Somer apparently enjoys? I'd really like to RMT some of my ill gotten gains you see and maybe just get told to stop once people get really pissed off about it. I'm not even asking for especial ships and breathless Dev endorsements here so I think it's quite a modest request really.
Arrendis
TK Corp
#894 - 2014-08-20 10:15:17 UTC
Baneken wrote:
So to sum it up Somer tried to play CCP sales rep, got burned for it and closed the business while giving back some of those hard scammed ISK for his cows ?

Anything I missed when I skimmed the last 20 pages ?


Did you catch Abrazzar's line about the silent majority? If you got that one, I think you're good.
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#895 - 2014-08-20 10:16:24 UTC
Myriad Blaze wrote:
Maybe it's just me, but I think this is most obvious and both sides - CCP and Somer - should have avoided leaving this open.
Don't forget a small detail: CCP can ban Somer, while Somer can't ban CCP.

So it's actually Somer that should have avoided leaving that open.

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
Derrick Miles
Death Rabbit Ky Oneida
#896 - 2014-08-20 10:16:45 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Derrick Miles wrote:
I have to disagree with this. RMT is not just defined by making a profit, it's the trade of any in-game items, services, or currency for out-of-game items, services, or currency. Trading the services of a Jita alt for the use of their referral would still constitute RMT.


I'm assuming that Somer was truthful when he said this:
Proposal wrote:
This is a service, in keeping with CCP's new guidelines that ETC affiliate link rewards should be service-oriented.

Indicating that CCP is OK with providing services as affiliate link rewards. Whether that's good policy or not, I'm not sure.

You have a point there, I assumed that line was a bit of marketing wordsmithing. I'm not aware of any new policy or guidelines regarding affiliate links, do you happen to know what that's in reference to?
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#897 - 2014-08-20 10:16:56 UTC
Myriad Blaze wrote:
I didn't miss that line about "no extra ISK". And if you take this one sentence out of the context of the proposal I would agree that it sounds like saying one thing but doing another. But this line isn't stand alone. And if you reread the proposal you should realize that it means "no extra ISK in addition to the price paid for the PLEX".

The problem with the proposal is that it doesn't state how the price for PLEX is set. It just says that Somer will give the "best price anywhere in EVE". With this wording Somer could offer 10 Bn per PLEX and still would be within the boundaries of the proposal. Maybe it's just me, but I think this is most obvious and both sides - CCP and Somer - should have avoided leaving this open.


Exactly, the proposal is so full of traps and clever wording that a careful reading by somebody familiar with the way EVE works would have inevitably led to it being binned.

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Tao Dolcino
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#898 - 2014-08-20 10:18:42 UTC
Brahan Seer wrote:


I'm sure their is fault on both sides to some extent. I think we can all agree upon that. But what I encourage people to think about is, Just to play devils advocat for a moment. What if Somer is guilty and maliciously thought she had a loophole to make money and sell isk or whatever. has that personally affected you? Would her doing RMT out weigh the good SomerBlink has done for the community and players? If it doesn't out weigh the good how do you punish? Because realistically if you ban somer a lot of parties get punished by proxy. Is that nessesarily fair? No. But it's the reality of the situation.


So we should never fight the mafias, just because they buy people ?
Is buying people doing something good for the community ?
Should we close our eyes on forbidden activities just because we get some crumbles of it ?
What about our honor, our dignity ?
Arrendis
TK Corp
#899 - 2014-08-20 10:19:07 UTC
Brahan Seer wrote:
I just think banning somer having blink be dead does more harm to more people than good. Yes somer closed blink not CCP I get that but the two are related obviously.


Establishing the consistent precedent that the rules will not be enforced evenly and without preferential treatment does far more harm than anything that might come from Blink's closure. If you can't trust CCP to enforce the rules about RMT fairly, across the board, then you can't trust them about any other rules, either. At that point, there's no reason to believe them when they deny allegations of giving PL free titans, of nerfing the damage and tank on ships flown by any account that isn't using multi-character skill training, or anything else.

The rules have to be fairly enforced, or the game itself is suspect.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#900 - 2014-08-20 10:19:44 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
Myriad Blaze wrote:
I didn't miss that line about "no extra ISK". And if you take this one sentence out of the context of the proposal I would agree that it sounds like saying one thing but doing another. But this line isn't stand alone. And if you reread the proposal you should realize that it means "no extra ISK in addition to the price paid for the PLEX".


Proposal wrote:
Justification: Blink provides no extra ISK or bonus Blink credit for buying through the link. Instead, we make it easy to sell your PLEX and get your ISK quickly, no matter where you are-- no Jita alt required. This is a service, in keeping with CCP's new guidelines that ETC affiliate link rewards should be service-oriented.


Here is the entire context around that sentence. It cannot reasonably be construed to mean that.

Quote:
Because the community team is most certainly NOT the correct counterpart in getting formal approval for such an agreement.


Right. Legal is. So why make someone far less likely to be well versed in the nuances of EVE than the Community team your point person?


Derrick Miles wrote:
You have a point there, I assumed that line was a bit of marketing wordsmithing. I'm not aware of any new policy or guidelines regarding affiliate links, do you happen to know what that's in reference to?


CCP changed their guidelines in re affiliate links to ban providing ISK rewards for Plex purchases last year. What they changed them to, I don't know.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon