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Community Concerns Regarding SOMERblink

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Sniper Smith
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#721 - 2014-08-20 05:49:46 UTC
Thatt Guy wrote:
So since Somer can't use Eve to print RL money anymore, he closes up shop.

This should tell you all you need to know. He never cared for the community, or the players or Eve, just blinded by the almighty dollar.

To Somer:
Take your ball and go home then, may the IRS bless you with an audit.

I can't blame him for leaving.. You can argue both sides to if he crossed that vague line CCP has about when is it RMT and when isn't it.. But the simple fact is, Somer has been screwed by CCP 3 times now.

First time was the first "RMT" deal, that he did for YEARS, no complaints, then some outcry and CCP shuts it down. It's not like CCP never knew what he was doing, some covert act, he was a site advertised by CCP several times.. suddenly it was wrong.
Second time was the drama about the Scorps, and the gifts for the big celebration.. Somer didn't DO anything. Even if they asked for the stuff, which they didn't (at least not the Scorps) CCP was the one that gave it all out.
Third was this.. Was Somers proposal fake or not.. I donno.. But he asked them if it needed to go through legal, where you'd expect them to ask common sense questions like HOW are you going to set the PRICE.. Highsec Average? Jita? Monthly Average? HOW.. Basic questions. No CCP just said yes. It's fine.. and didn't even pass it by Legal. I doubt they even read the document.

I can't blame him for not wanting to deal with CCP anymore. If CCP could pull their heads out of their asses and become consistent, with some common sense questions and procedures for their actions, all of these events (and many, many others with other communities and sites) could all have been avoided.
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#722 - 2014-08-20 05:50:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Rain6637
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#723 - 2014-08-20 05:50:53 UTC
Tear Jar wrote:
The issue isn't the ad revenue. The issue is that you can trade isk for RL labor and services. This lets you make profit off of the labor that you otherwise would have had to pay for.


CCP has already set a clear precedent for this kind of thing and it's explicitly allowed. People offer teamspeak hosting, web hosting, coding, and other services for ISK, and you can engage in this thing if you want to, as long as it's EVE related.

Tear Jar wrote:
Imagine that I ran a software company and had a ton of isk. Based on the current rules, I could totally pay people isk to write code for me, which I then sell on the market. Mittani does that, but instead pays people isk for writing and webhosting.


This is a ridiculous edge case and you'd probably be in violation of the law if you did this, as you don't have the right to redistribute software that you buy. Additionally, TMC pays for their own web hosting in RL $$, and the articles they pay ISK for are all related to CCP IP, conforming to guidelines CCP handed down to them after last year's Somergate. The difference is that they haven't tried to weasel their way around it by deceiving CCP.

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Derrick Miles
Death Rabbit Ky Oneida
#724 - 2014-08-20 05:51:17 UTC
Rain6637 wrote:
SOMER's games are consistent in generating more ISK than he puts into them.

people in this thread have pointed out SOMER is not a charity... so outside of the closed loop of SOMER games that simply generate more ISK, what do you suppose he should do with his ISK besides finding reasons to give it away and promoting his site and [CCP's revenue via] PLEX in the process?

if you don't think of something, the ISK would only accumulate.

even if SOMER became an ETC reseller, that still leaves the question of what to do with that ISK outside the closed loop of SOMER games.

I can't think of anything that makes more sense than what he's done... can you?

I can think of quite a few things to do with the isk if simply giving back to the community was the primary desire. The point was, the deal involved trading isk for an out-of-game service which is clearly against CCP rules. Do you really think there is no other method to give away isk?
Ohkewl
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#725 - 2014-08-20 05:51:32 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Ohkewl wrote:
That guy pays his freelance writers in isk

Which is allowed

Ohkewl wrote:
and pretty much lives of the money generated by the site he places the articles on. If that's not a business idk what is.

That money comes from ad revenue. Are you seriously suggesting that EVE websites not be allowed to run ads? Because that's absurd.


And why do you think those advertisers pay money for those adds, because people click them, and buy stuff from those companies. Maybe you and i dont click them, but some people do.
Are you seriously suggesting that companies would pay for advertising, if they didnt make any money off it? Wouldn't that be absurd?
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#726 - 2014-08-20 05:52:05 UTC
Ohkewl wrote:
huh, and The Mittani isnt?? Didnt he quit his RL job so he could focus more on his RMT empire? He lives from his RMT, while paying his employees with ISK.


Submit your evidence to security@ccpgames.com

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#727 - 2014-08-20 05:54:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Rain6637
Derrick Miles wrote:
Rain6637 wrote:
SOMER's games are consistent in generating more ISK than he puts into them.

people in this thread have pointed out SOMER is not a charity... so outside of the closed loop of SOMER games that simply generate more ISK, what do you suppose he should do with his ISK besides finding reasons to give it away and promoting his site and [CCP's revenue via] PLEX in the process?

if you don't think of something, the ISK would only accumulate.

even if SOMER became an ETC reseller, that still leaves the question of what to do with that ISK outside the closed loop of SOMER games.

I can't think of anything that makes more sense than what he's done... can you?

I can think of quite a few things to do with the isk if simply giving back to the community was the primary desire. The point was, the deal involved trading isk for an out-of-game service which is clearly against CCP rules. Do you really think there is no other method to give away isk?

naw, you're right. I was just posing a question / thinking out loud. I see it now: he said he would let anyone with an ETC participate, and then he limited it to MD.

lol. direct failure to comprehend on my part. and it's exactly what people said / oops.

It's impossible to say if his plan was a *lie* at the time, but it is definitely not what he ended up doing.

Help, I can't download EVE

President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub

PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#728 - 2014-08-20 05:55:13 UTC
Ohkewl wrote:
And why do you think those advertisers pay money for those adds, because people click them, and buy stuff from those companies. Maybe you and i dont click them, but some people do.
Are you seriously suggesting that companies would pay for advertising, if they didnt make any money off it? Wouldn't that be absurd?


Are you offered any ISK incentives for buying from their advertisers?

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Derrick Miles
Death Rabbit Ky Oneida
#729 - 2014-08-20 05:56:24 UTC
Andski wrote:
Tear Jar wrote:
Imagine that I ran a software company and had a ton of isk. Based on the current rules, I could totally pay people isk to write code for me, which I then sell on the market. Mittani does that, but instead pays people isk for writing and webhosting.


This is a ridiculous edge case and you'd probably be in violation of the law if you did this, as you don't have the right to redistribute software that you buy. Additionally, TMC pays for their own web hosting in RL $$, and the articles they pay ISK for are all related to CCP IP, conforming to guidelines CCP handed down to them after last year's Somergate. The difference is that they haven't tried to weasel their way around it by deceiving CCP.

Actually you can redistribute software that you buy, provided the license set by the seller allows for it (and paying someone to make software often enables one to dictate such a license). However, doing so with material created for Eve, which is the exception that allows for code to be purchased with isk, would constitute a violation of the EULA.
Garia666
CyberShield Inc
HYDRA RELOADED
#730 - 2014-08-20 06:01:03 UTC
thanks ccp for screwing my game.
Neesa Corrinne
Nyx Legion..
Breakpoint.
#731 - 2014-08-20 06:03:08 UTC
Ohkewl wrote:
Sugar Kyle wrote:
CCP Falcon and CCP Leeloo have been very open to our questions and the questions that we have brought forward from the community starting from last night.

I've recently been asked about accounts used for businesses and what account usage qualifies as a business reference this part of the EULA:

Quote:
"Accounts may not be used for business purposes. Access to the System and playing EVE is intended for your personal entertainment, enjoyment and recreation, and not for corporate, business, commercial or income-seeking activities. Business entities and anyone who is acting for or on behalf of a business or for business purposes may not establish an Account, access the System or play EVE. Accessing the System or using the Game for commercial, business or income-seeking purposes is strictly prohibited."



Does this mean guys like TheMittani are in trouble too? That guy pays his freelance writers in isk and pretty much lives of the money generated by the site he places the articles on. If that's not a business idk what is.


Ummmm this.

I want to know the answer to this too.

Is CCP going to perform a comprehensive review of everyone that may be involved in RMT or simply pick on the person that's cool to hate currently?
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#732 - 2014-08-20 06:06:33 UTC
CCP Falcon wrote:
Hey guys,

We’re aware that SOMER Blink has posted a message to state that their services are shutting down.

We’re also well aware that a lot of members of the community have enjoyed playing SOMER Blink over the course of the last four years, and it’s very unfortunate and saddening to see a source of enjoyment for our players closing its doors.

In the same respect however, we believe that the promotion that caused this issue was not representative of the original proposal that was brought to CCP.

Given that we’re unable to provide reimbursements as per section 1.3 of our reimbursement policy, it’s good to see that SOMER Blink is shutting down in a controlled and stable manner, and that players will be able to withdraw their ISK and / or assets.

While we will be monitoring this closely, we have no intention of interfering with this process, as we feel that allowing players to be able to have their assets and / or ISK returned by SOMER Blink of their own free will is an important part of bringing this situation to a solid resolution.

We’ll have more information for you guys tomorrow, once myself and CCP Leeloo get back into the office and speak to the relevant people, including the CSM.

This remains a top priority for the community team, those involved in other parts of CCP, and the CSM.

Thanks for your patience while we work on bringing this to a close.






Gotta admit the gambling stuff there, was kind of popular.

Maybe it's time to open the door and put casinos in these stations.

Or pleasure hubs (shameless plug to bring pleasure hubs back Cool )

But seriously, content is now removed from the game. What will take its place?

Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Hendrick Tallardar
Doomheim
#733 - 2014-08-20 06:06:45 UTC
Ohkewl wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Ohkewl wrote:
That guy pays his freelance writers in isk

Which is allowed

Ohkewl wrote:
and pretty much lives of the money generated by the site he places the articles on. If that's not a business idk what is.

That money comes from ad revenue. Are you seriously suggesting that EVE websites not be allowed to run ads? Because that's absurd.


And why do you think those advertisers pay money for those adds, because people click them, and buy stuff from those companies. Maybe you and i dont click them, but some people do.
Are you seriously suggesting that companies would pay for advertising, if they didnt make any money off it? Wouldn't that be absurd?


Once TheMittani.com, and other sites like EVENews24.com and CrossingZebras.com offer incentives to click their ads then yes you can make that comparison but since they don't you're repeating the same straw man from yesterday. Those sites are operating within CCP's policies in how they pay their contributors ISK and running ads separately to maintain their overhead costs. If you have concerns, or even suspicions that they're not following those polcies then contact CCP's support and discuss it with them. At present you're simply rumor mongering and making claims without any substantiated evidence other than your own misconceptions which have been disproven.
Klyith
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#734 - 2014-08-20 06:10:08 UTC
I love all the people saying this is a giant conspiracy by people who hated Somer Blink. It must be a pretty sucky conspiracy since we couldn't lift a damn finger against it for months and months between the last time this happened and now. You'd think a real conspiracy could've faked up some evidence to use against someone before they went and incriminated themselves.


The funniest thing about the whole Somer Story is that the person most directly responsible for his downfall was his biggest fan, CCP Navigator. If he hadn't given them those Ishukone Watch Scorpions and crazy prize ships, people wouldn't have had so much reason to look closely at the original referral kickbacks. Better yet if Somer had the cunning to turn them down for more modest returns. He could have kept operating under the radar for probably years and years. Ah, the best laid plans of mice and men...

Andski wrote:

I agree that SOMER closing shop is highly indicative that he only pursued RL profits, but I doubt the guy is dumb enough to evade taxes in the US. The Iron Bank (sorry, IRS) will have its due.

Isn't S.M. a German though? Are german tax collectors better or worse than the IRS?
Ohkewl
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#735 - 2014-08-20 06:12:49 UTC
Hendrick Tallardar wrote:
Ohkewl wrote:
Andski wrote:
Ohkewl wrote:
So all Somer has to do is:
1. everyone buying plex through their site also needs to write an article (lets say min 3 max 20 words)
2. Somer buys these articles for isk and puts them on a websit
3. Markeedragon has a banner on the site and pays Somer for the advertising.

There you go, a legitemate newsite.



except that's not what TMC or other news sites do at all

on the other hand, if TMC offered you ISK for buying yourself a game through their amazon affiliate program, that would most certainly be clear-cut RMT


Minus the plex buying, it is what they do, buy articles for isk, get money from adds.
TMC or Evenews24 doesnt buy just any article from anyone either.


As a former writer for TMC, that's not how they behave/operate at all. They pay the contributor in ISK only for EVE "Universe" articles (EVE Online, DUST 514, EVE Valkyrie etc.) this policy also includes videos and streaming fleets/large fights. They don't just pay a writer for a non-EVE article with EVE's in-game money as that is against CCP's policy which was previously linked to you. Any coverage not pertaining to EVE is compensated in a different fashion and has no ISK or PLEX or GTC involved whatsoever. This could be, for example, using the site's role as a news outlet to obtain press pass keys for a game they intend to cover, which has been done, and so forth. That behavior has no bearing on their role in providing EVE coverage as that is a separate policy/rules of operation they are required to follow. As for "doesnt buy just any article from anyone either" that's due to, in TMC's case, quality control and preference for not having poorly written and grammatically incorrect pieces thrown out there.


All that is irrelevant, all that matters is that he pays his employees with isk, and makes real profits from their labor. It doesnt matter if there are also articles that arent payed with ISK, or that he wrote himself, it matters that there are.
Hendrick Tallardar
Doomheim
#736 - 2014-08-20 06:12:53 UTC
Neesa Corrinne wrote:
Ohkewl wrote:
Sugar Kyle wrote:
CCP Falcon and CCP Leeloo have been very open to our questions and the questions that we have brought forward from the community starting from last night.

I've recently been asked about accounts used for businesses and what account usage qualifies as a business reference this part of the EULA:

Quote:
"Accounts may not be used for business purposes. Access to the System and playing EVE is intended for your personal entertainment, enjoyment and recreation, and not for corporate, business, commercial or income-seeking activities. Business entities and anyone who is acting for or on behalf of a business or for business purposes may not establish an Account, access the System or play EVE. Accessing the System or using the Game for commercial, business or income-seeking purposes is strictly prohibited."



Does this mean guys like TheMittani are in trouble too? That guy pays his freelance writers in isk and pretty much lives of the money generated by the site he places the articles on. If that's not a business idk what is.


Ummmm this.

I want to know the answer to this too.

Is CCP going to perform a comprehensive review of everyone that may be involved in RMT or simply pick on the person that's cool to hate currently?


They already provided a statement on this from last year's kerfuffel over what Somer did (there's a link somewhere in here but I can't be asked at the moment to provide it). The summary of what was said was, TMC can pay contributors ISK for their submitted work only if that payment is for EVE IP related coverage. This would mean you writing about DUST 514 in some capacity is perfectly OK. However if all you wrote about was say Elite: Dangerous, The Witcher 3 or Hearthstone, you can't be paid in ISK for that work. This applies to videos, podcasts etc. as well.
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#737 - 2014-08-20 06:14:13 UTC
Klyith wrote:
Isn't S.M. a German though? Are german tax collectors better or worse than the IRS?


I'm fairly sure that he's American, but even if he's not, evading taxes in any developed country is a bad idea.

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#738 - 2014-08-20 06:17:42 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
Tear Jar wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Ohkewl wrote:
That guy pays his freelance writers in isk

Which is allowed

Ohkewl wrote:
and pretty much lives of the money generated by the site he places the articles on. If that's not a business idk what is.

That money comes from ad revenue. Are you seriously suggesting that EVE websites not be allowed to run ads? Because that's absurd.


The issue isn't the ad revenue. The issue is that you can trade isk for RL labor and services. This lets you make profit off of the labor that you otherwise would have had to pay for.

Imagine that I ran a software company and had a ton of isk. Based on the current rules, I could totally pay people isk to write code for me, which I then sell on the market. Mittani does that, but instead pays people isk for writing and webhosting.

Somer just wasn't clever enough to pull off a scheme like this and resorted to direct isk/plex for cash transactions.



Only if that code was EVE related. TMC only pays its writers ISK for EVE articles and I highly doubt they pay hosting in ISK.

CCP has explicitly allowed paying ISK for EVE related services, like writing.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#739 - 2014-08-20 06:21:13 UTC
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
But seriously, content is now removed from the game. What will take its place?


Some other gambling site will take its place within a week. Hopefully one that doesn't have RL gain as its primary goal.

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Garai Nolen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#740 - 2014-08-20 06:23:36 UTC
Ohkewl wrote:
And why do you think those advertisers pay money for those adds, because people click them, and buy stuff from those companies. Maybe you and i dont click them, but some people do.
Are you seriously suggesting that companies would pay for advertising, if they didnt make any money off it? Wouldn't that be absurd?


Not sure how this is so difficult for people to understand.

If TMC paid people ISK to directly click on their ads, that would be RMT. But they don't. They pay ISK for people to produce content. OTHER people, consuming that content, MIGHT click on the ads, but those people have no direct, in-game, ISK-related incentive to do so. Somer did the former, practically every other supposed-RMT example does the latter. And it's a world of difference. (That is of course ignoring all the other examples where people are simply paying for services in ISK rather than $ and NO ONE is making real $ out of the deal, which is so far from relevant as to be laughable every time it gets brought up).

So the first half of this issue is understanding that there IS a difference.

The second half would be to understand WHY that difference actually matters, which would get into all the reasons the ISK->$ portion of RMT is so specifically damaging to a game (botting, turning gameplay into a job [for real, not just metaphorically], hacked accounts, etc.).

Any direct ISK->$ scheme basically sets up an unlimited growth cycle where the endgame is to simply acquire ISK by *ANY* means necessary, including those flat out damaging to the health of a game or simply outright illegal, because $ is a motivator like no other.

An indirect ISK->services followed by consumers of service->$ has a very natural limiting factor; there's only so many ad clicks TMC is going to get NO MATTER HOW MUCH ISK they spend on articles. The income they pull from ad revenue is barely related to the ISK balance they can float and far more related to just about every other facet of running a successful site. In fact, amazingly enough, people have even made websites that don't have anything to do with EVE, where they don't pay ANYone in ISK, and still manage to generate ad-based revenue. Crazy hey?