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Lets get opinions about the WH roundtable [vote]

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Chesterfield Fancypantz
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1 - 2014-08-17 04:33:56 UTC
http://strawpoll.me/2359394

Keep it honest guys.

Y'all know my vote.
Rastin Crysknife
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#2 - 2014-08-17 05:20:12 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Fozzie never explained very well what the goal of the WH mass changes was. Claiming that the changes were exclusively to reduce stagnation but without a particular goal of each change tells me that either:

A) These are really just arbitrary changes that display a lack of care given to wormhole space and its inhabitants, which is a poor design philosophy that doesn't concern itself with the fundamentals of problem solving.

B) The devs are not willing to give the real reasons and goals behind the design decisions for fear of audience backlash about real or perceived biases.

*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal.

Bob is always present, watching you traverse space accessable only though wormholes. He is the constant reminder that there is always someone watching you, waiting for your moment of weakness to appear and claim his toll for collecting the bounty of his realm.
Hatshepsut IV
Un.Reasonable
#3 - 2014-08-17 06:15:18 UTC
This.


Remember back when you were in grade school, there was the one kid who would swear up and down until they were blue in the face their way was the best possible idea ever?

Homogeny is bad when it comes to work culture and ideas too.

Public Channel | Un.Welcome
Lemonades
Almost Dangerous
Wolves Amongst Strangers
#4 - 2014-08-17 07:39:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Lemonades
I think CCP not seriously responding to 100+ pages in threads is very, very bad and also might be a bad precursor for the future. I also would like to thank Fozzie for his time, giving up his night, although most the things he responded were not in-depth or were weak promises for future stuff that we can never recall him on. If CCP was serious there would be more than one dev there.

The only thing the mass changes will make sure is less rolling, more possing up so there will be less liquid isk in the wallets of wormhole people because they simply won't do stuff. This is good for ccp my friends, because, we will pay more and plex our accounts less. Otherwise I have no idea why ccl would implement these changes.
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#5 - 2014-08-17 08:20:46 UTC
Your poll is bad and you should feel bad. Were you listening to the same townhall that I was, because Fozzie did a lot of answering. It just seems like most people didn't like those answers.

Your poll basically amounts to:

1. You agree with my opinion.
2. You're wrong.
Borsek
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#6 - 2014-08-17 08:47:57 UTC
Same results as on the wh jump distance poll on the thing itself, basically, it seems like an arbitrary change. You jump a cap now, with a hostile fleet on the other side, they'll get your ass regardless of how far away from the hole you land.
Chesterfield Fancypantz
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#7 - 2014-08-17 09:15:55 UTC
Paikis wrote:
Your poll is bad and you should feel bad. Were you listening to the same townhall that I was, because Fozzie did a lot of answering. It just seems like most people didn't like those answers.

Your poll basically amounts to:

1. You agree with my opinion.
2. You're wrong.


I tried very hard to make sure it was two different options.

Lots of people were saying that he was politically answering 95% of the questions people asked, and this basically was a giant PR spin campaign.

The other one says that he answered honestly and fairly. Perhaps there should have been a grey area but its not like I put down one side of the argument.
Axloth Okiah
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#8 - 2014-08-17 09:22:13 UTC
Tthis just shows what a spoiled bunch of twats we are. Crying that dev answers werent "good enough" :facepalm: Show me another game so old and with this many subscribers where developers would go to private comms and chat with players on this level. Go cry to Blizzard about Diablo 3 being **** and see if one of them will show up to answer your questions...

SSC Brokering Service
AssassinationsdoneWrong
Deep Core Mining Inc.
#9 - 2014-08-17 10:47:19 UTC
Axloth Okiah wrote:
Tthis just shows what a spoiled bunch of twats we are. Crying that dev answers werent "good enough" :facepalm: Show me another game so old and with this many subscribers where developers would go to private comms and chat with players on this level. Go cry to Blizzard about Diablo 3 being **** and see if one of them will show up to answer your questions...


This^^
At the end of the day they don't have to explain ANY decisions in game changes/mechanics. I don't like the changes but I'll adapt to them but I'm not gonna sit there and hold my breath until either CCP gives me what I want or I pass out.
You had a dev who, after a full day of AT commentating, is good enough to get on comms with what he knows is a hostile crowd and answer questions and put forward cases without leaking too much of the reasoning behind but held himself far better than the majority who werr just wah wah wah.
Most important he didn't move from implementation. You see this as a bad thing I see this as the best part. It does show that constant bleating won't get you a full change but a well structured argument might get if softened. This is what is needed otherwise you open the door for the bigger voices in k (especially null) to completely change our game.

Well done Fozzie for holding ground and thanks for taking time to visit with us out of TZ and in the middle of AT stuff. Shame on most of the rest of you.

As for giant conspiracy theories ...... WaterGate was a giant conspiracy this is a change in an internet space game that they have already promised they are going to monitor very closely for the negative effects a lot of us have voiced. So really what are you worried about.

The town hall was embarrassing tbh and the only people who should hold themselves up are Corbexx and Fozzie. The rest was neckbeards and crybabies.

The Nexus 7's

What we fall short of in numbers we more than make up for in stupidity
O'nira
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#10 - 2014-08-17 10:58:43 UTC
Lemonades wrote:
I think CCP not seriously responding to 100+ pages in threads is very, very bad and also might be a bad precursor for the future. I also would like to thank Fozzie for his time, giving up his night, although most the things he responded were not in-depth or were weak promises for future stuff that we can never recall him on. If CCP was serious there would be more than one dev there.

The only thing the mass changes will make sure is less rolling, more possing up so there will be less liquid isk in the wallets of wormhole people because they simply won't do stuff. This is good for ccp my friends, because, we will pay more and plex our accounts less. Otherwise I have no idea why ccl would implement these changes.



there will be more isk i think, right now if i don't like a hole i just find a new one. after patch i might try to farm in every hole i can because i don't know when i can get another one.

it really feels they are changing it just "because", i haven't seen any reasoning for it, only the stupid "adds more risk" **** that some people keep spewing not realizing that suicide does not equal risk
Sith1s Spectre
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#11 - 2014-08-17 11:12:02 UTC
AssassinationsdoneWrong wrote:
Axloth Okiah wrote:
Tthis just shows what a spoiled bunch of twats we are. Crying that dev answers werent "good enough" :facepalm: Show me another game so old and with this many subscribers where developers would go to private comms and chat with players on this level. Go cry to Blizzard about Diablo 3 being **** and see if one of them will show up to answer your questions...


This^^
At the end of the day they don't have to explain ANY decisions in game changes/mechanics. I don't like the changes but I'll adapt to them but I'm not gonna sit there and hold my breath until either CCP gives me what I want or I pass out.
You had a dev who, after a full day of AT commentating, is good enough to get on comms with what he knows is a hostile crowd and answer questions and put forward cases without leaking too much of the reasoning behind but held himself far better than the majority who werr just wah wah wah.
Most important he didn't move from implementation. You see this as a bad thing I see this as the best part. It does show that constant bleating won't get you a full change but a well structured argument might get if softened. This is what is needed otherwise you open the door for the bigger voices in k (especially null) to completely change our game.

Well done Fozzie for holding ground and thanks for taking time to visit with us out of TZ and in the middle of AT stuff. Shame on most of the rest of you.

As for giant conspiracy theories ...... WaterGate was a giant conspiracy this is a change in an internet space game that they have already promised they are going to monitor very closely for the negative effects a lot of us have voiced. So really what are you worried about.

The town hall was embarrassing tbh and the only people who should hold themselves up are Corbexx and Fozzie. The rest was neckbeards and crybabies.


I couldn't have summed it up better than what Axloth & AssassinationsdoneWrong have said.

Resident forum troll and fashion consultant
calaretu
Honestly We didnt know
#12 - 2014-08-17 13:06:50 UTC
Sith1s Spectre wrote:
AssassinationsdoneWrong wrote:
Axloth Okiah wrote:
Tthis just shows what a spoiled bunch of twats we are. Crying that dev answers werent "good enough" :facepalm: Show me another game so old and with this many subscribers where developers would go to private comms and chat with players on this level. Go cry to Blizzard about Diablo 3 being **** and see if one of them will show up to answer your questions...


This^^
At the end of the day they don't have to explain ANY decisions in game changes/mechanics. I don't like the changes but I'll adapt to them but I'm not gonna sit there and hold my breath until either CCP gives me what I want or I pass out.
You had a dev who, after a full day of AT commentating, is good enough to get on comms with what he knows is a hostile crowd and answer questions and put forward cases without leaking too much of the reasoning behind but held himself far better than the majority who werr just wah wah wah.
Most important he didn't move from implementation. You see this as a bad thing I see this as the best part. It does show that constant bleating won't get you a full change but a well structured argument might get if softened. This is what is needed otherwise you open the door for the bigger voices in k (especially null) to completely change our game.

Well done Fozzie for holding ground and thanks for taking time to visit with us out of TZ and in the middle of AT stuff. Shame on most of the rest of you.

As for giant conspiracy theories ...... WaterGate was a giant conspiracy this is a change in an internet space game that they have already promised they are going to monitor very closely for the negative effects a lot of us have voiced. So really what are you worried about.

The town hall was embarrassing tbh and the only people who should hold themselves up are Corbexx and Fozzie. The rest was neckbeards and crybabies.


I couldn't have summed it up better than what Axloth & AssassinationsdoneWrong have said.



Agree

~Bringer of happiness

http://collapsedbehind.blogspot.no/
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#13 - 2014-08-17 15:27:12 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Once again thank you to Fozzie for coming, it would not be an easy experience, and your poll should really have had both available as an answer.

There is a strong possibility that Fozzie was there as a figurehead, defending decisions that had been decided by others, that he had to try to put the best possible spin and response to.
He was a good spokesman, and he did try his best, and you could see how much more comfortable he was when he had the opportunity to deal with matters that he could still influence or steer towards implementation.

If this move away from discoverable and complex mechanics, that reward player skill and experience, into the world of "shake things up, people love new chaos" and "design is hard work lets use luck to decide stuff" ( more detailed reasoning and explanations in other posts) has been made by the management, then all Fozzie can do is make the best of a bad job.

And it is a bad job.

He did the best that could be expected of anyone under the circumstances.

All he could do was try to make it seem that we were being listened to, rather than just telling us, in the immortal words of the sirius cybernetics corporation complaints dept, that due to aggressive economising had a sign that had collapsed half into the ground, leaving the message.

"Go suck on a Pig." ™

If this new wormhole design philosophy is going to be used as a template for the new space, and survival is down to the spin of a coin,and we are just along for the ride, then:-

God help us all.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Rastin Crysknife
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#14 - 2014-08-17 17:36:46 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
... Stuff ...

I'm actually here in my thinking. I appreciate Fozzie taking the time, when he's already busy with a lot of other stuff as it is. However, those in the community calling us "spoiled brats" for calling out a developer (whom we pay for the privilege of playing their game) for crappy design choices are just being holier-than-thou. We are the paying customers, and if CCP stops providing a product we're willing to pay for, then we're not going to play anymore, and everyone looses.

My issues are with the apparent design philosophy apparently driving these changes. I want CCP and Eve to succeed, but I don't see how this change represent good design choices that support the future of the game because they're going to drive away, or at least hinder, large portions of the WH population.

Bob is always present, watching you traverse space accessable only though wormholes. He is the constant reminder that there is always someone watching you, waiting for your moment of weakness to appear and claim his toll for collecting the bounty of his realm.
AssassinationsdoneWrong
Deep Core Mining Inc.
#15 - 2014-08-17 17:46:52 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Rastin Crysknife wrote:
rhubarb


*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal.

I took solace in the fact that CCP relented, looked, readjusted and will continue to monitor. *Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal.. The change is going in so get used to it.
Thing that saddens me the most is we are WHers. That used to mean we outthought, outplayed, learned to overcome, adapt and theory our way through ANY change.

That spirit seems to be gone and that saddens me.

The Nexus 7's

What we fall short of in numbers we more than make up for in stupidity
Agatir Solenth
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#16 - 2014-08-17 18:04:51 UTC
One thing that can be said about CCP is that it is consistent. It surprises me how they continue to make changes that result in, “WTF CCP?” responses from the EvE community. However, that is their modus operandi, and it continues with the current wormhole changes set for the Hyperion expansion.

Poor communication upon initial testing on SiSi caused the proverbial s#!t storm (yet again, another WTF moment). This resulted in CCP attempting to clarify with a Dev-Blog, with the added bonus of asking for player feedback on this forum section. They went so far as to have CCP Fozzie attend a town-hall meeting with the wormhole community with wormhole CSM Corbexx in attendance (Joined by a few non-wormhole CSM representatives).

I would like to thank the CSM members for attending, CSM Corbexx taking the time to facilitate the meeting, and CCP Fozzie for attending. My only critique of the meeting, is that the hosts probably should have planned on the worse case scenario, and had a plan on how to moderate/control it from the beginning. Letting a bunch of EvE players into chat room with a Dev, and expect that it would not turn into chaos, didn’t show much foresight. However, thumbs up to the moderators, as they adapted on the fly, and took control.

Here is what I took away from the town-hall meeting:

1. There will not be any changes as a result of any of the feedback provided by the wormhole community, regarding the announced Hyperion changes.

CCP Fozzie made it clear that all of the changes will be put into the game. Some of the actual numbers have been adjusted. I do not think that it was a result of player feedback, any changes were already in the works during the SiSi release.

2. CCP Fozzie nor CCP has a clear concept of what they want from wormhole space, but have a clear idea of what they DO NOT want.

CCP stated that the changes were not made with any idea of how it will affect game play. The changes were made to shake things up, because he believes that stagnation is bad for game play. He believes that the Devs make changes and let the players do what they may with them.

He also stated the changes were made with no intent to force a single type of play style upon the players. Even though there is a new wormhole being introduced that will solely allow frigates sized vessels to enter. (???)

3. You can argue the good or bad of each change. During the town-hall meeting there was no Hyperion change that had 100% support of condemnation. However, there is one thing that everyone seemed to agree with… The changes would not benefit smaller groups, and would make things more difficult for wormhole dwellers.

4. CCP Fozzie does not like the capital escalation ISK/hour rate for wormhole space. He even went so far as to say that it is by far superior to incursions. He hinted that he’d like to see it reduced.

5. The statistics support that there is as much mining going on in w-space now, as there was when ore sites were a cosmic signature. Eexpect those sites to remain anoms. (No data was given on what types of ships are doing that mining. I think it is safe to safe, it is being done by a lot more frigates than barges.)

6. One player suggestion is being implemented (not originally part of Hyperion), Signatures IDs will not change after down time.

7. All of the changes were discussed with the CSM, most of which do not play in w-space.

8. Some of the changes were suggested by the former CSM Chista. I can confirm that the increased spawning distance from wormholes jumps was one of many suggestions given to CCP that could improve game play. I saw the original list, Chista posted it to an alliance forms prior to submitting it to CCP, asking for feedback. It was so far down the list, I’m surprised it even saw the light of day.

9. CCP Fozzie would not commit to any changes being implemented which ALL wormholes agree upon (POS interface changes, ability to swap clones in w-space).
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#17 - 2014-08-17 18:35:42 UTC
Agatir Solenth wrote:
Here is what I took away from the town-hall meeting:

snip


It's funny, I listened to the same sound recording you did and this is not at all what I got from it.

1. Fozzie said they would be taking feedback into consideration. This does not mean that they will completely scrap things just because a bunch of nerds raged about it. Adjustments have been made to the original changes, and I put these changes down to the uproar caused on these forums. I think Fozzie handled this well.

3. Funny, I heard a member of a lower class (c2?) basically say that the mass changes would have no effect on them. MWDing Battleships would land within jump range anyway. This change basically slows down rage-rolling and stops the ability to crash a hole and avoid fighting. you either log off or fight, there is no more slamming the door. Fozzie stated that this change would also lessen the ability to roll for a specific hole.

4. Fozzie said that the ISK/h for capital escalations was far superior to incursions. He did not say anything that I took to mean he wanted it reduced though (If I missed something, please link and timestamp).

9. I heard Fozzie say that they were working on (or was it looking at?) changes for jump clones and that the suggested change was something they wanted to impliment.

It really is like people listened to different recordings. If you assume sour grapes, you'll not taste the sweet. Design by commitee is a terrible idea.
Chesterfield Fancypantz
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#18 - 2014-08-17 20:49:34 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Once again thank you to Fozzie for coming, it would not be an easy experience, and your poll should really have had both available as an answer.

There is a strong possibility that Fozzie was there as a figurehead, defending decisions that had been decided by others, that he had to try to put the best possible spin and response to.
He was a good spokesman, and he did try his best, and you could see how much more comfortable he was when he had the opportunity to deal with matters that he could still influence or steer towards implementation.

If this move away from discoverable and complex mechanics, that reward player skill and experience, into the world of "shake things up, people love new chaos" and "design is hard work lets use luck to decide stuff" ( more detailed reasoning and explanations in other posts) has been made by the management, then all Fozzie can do is make the best of a bad job.

And it is a bad job.



I want to let the conversation flow naturally but I will say this here.

Thank you fozzie. People are right, a lot of other games would NEVER have even come CLOSE to having a developer sit in a town hall and deal with us nerds for a while. That alone deserves you much commendation.

This was not a personal attack, I feel very strongly that it is exactly what epicurus said here. You were there to spin, eat **** we were throwing at you, and end up with the same changes unable to change anything.

It still ******* sucks.
Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
Sending Thots And Players
#19 - 2014-08-18 00:41:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Trinkets friend
Agatir Solenth wrote:

1. There will not be any changes as a result of any of the feedback provided by the wormhole community, regarding the announced Hyperion changes.

CCP Fozzie made it clear that all of the changes will be put into the game. Some of the actual numbers have been adjusted. I do not think that it was a result of player feedback, any changes were already in the works during the SiSi release.


Well, from my POV, 99% of feedback on this forum is noise. 90% is carebears and farmers including all the C5 bears, whining that it's harder for them to farm safely. They frame their feeback like this:

"This change is bullshit, it's ******, **** you CCP, more asterixes! It affects MY game how I play it and hoe MY corp plays the game. I do not like change, i do not want to relearn or adapt to anything, I have MY methods down and MY INCOME is threatened and I MAY LOSE MY SHIPS BECAUSE I SUCK.

That is not feedback. it is noise. You have 56+ pages on the mass rolling thread and, honestly, 55 of them could be deleted because it is the above whining.

Feedback is what I, and very, very few others have been providing. It is reasoned, uses data, has analysis and conclusions (wrong as they may be) and most crucially, proposes alternatives.

I accepted that the change was going through and proposed a set of numbers I thought fairer and more reasonable. It's up to Fozzie to consider my arguments and consider the maths and adjust his numbers a bit.

Quote:
2. CCP Fozzie nor CCP has a clear concept of what they want from wormhole space, but have a clear idea of what they DO NOT want.

4. CCP Fozzie does not like the capital escalation ISK/hour rate for wormhole space. He even went so far as to say that it is by far superior to incursions. He hinted that he’d like to see it reduced.[


It seems what they do not want are neckbeards forming farming empires in complete safety deep in C4 space.
They do not want people using the API kill logs to log on trap with gank capital alts (BU/QEX).
They do not want unbreakable exploitative officer Chimeras toadsitting in C5 and C6 Pulsars.
They do not want unbreakable Slowcat blobs in C5 and C6 CV.
They seem happy with C5 and C6 Magnetars for some reason.
They seem to think their changes to Red Giants mean a damn this side of giving the Supplemental Coolant Injector a rework (haha bombs, spare me).
The changes to Black Holes are better than nothing, but we'll just see where the meta goes on this.

ALL of this it is directed towards limiting the excesses that creative pilots can achieve in C5 and C6 cap escalations using effects. That strikes at the heart of the farmers, which is fine by me.

Quote:
5. The statistics support that there is as much mining going on in w-space now, as there was when ore sites were a cosmic signature. Eexpect those sites to remain anoms. (No data was given on what types of ships are doing that mining. I think it is safe to safe, it is being done by a lot more frigates than barges.)


You know nothing, john Snow. No one mines in Ventures. The yield/hr is too poor to bother. The majority of mining, IMHO, occurs in C4 space where you can close yourself off with ease and do not regularly mix with the rage-rolling C5 crowd and rarely see visitors from K-space. Given, as it is currently, you get plenty of warning of an inbound sig spawning, there's very little risk.

I rarely see mackinaws in C2 and C3 space (except K346 holes). I rarely see retrievers in C2 holes. I see them, exclusively, POSed up in C4's, but almost never kill them, due to the naff inbound sig spawn.

The sole change that will kick this in the guts is the delayed sig spawn until jump-through, NOT necessarily the extra statics in C4's. As pointed out elsewhere, if the residents don't actually jump through, their outbound side will not exist.

Will this see wormhole mining decline? Not neccessarily. It'll jjust prevent ppeople sucking max yield in shinies and yield-bonused ships with no backup or d-scanning whatsoever.

If nullbears can adjust to be 100% safe and inside a POS shield 100% of the time, by mining in dead-end nullsec systems more than 5 AU across, then I'm sure the C4 mining bears will adjust.

~~ Localectomy Blog ~~
O'nira
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#20 - 2014-08-18 02:11:57 UTC
AssassinationsdoneWrong wrote:
Rastin Crysknife wrote:
rhubarb


I wondered how long before the first "My way or I unsub" thin veil.

I took solace in the fact that CCP relented, looked, readjusted and will continue to monitor. The wah wah I quit approach is already proven to hardly ever happen so grow up. The change is going in so get used to it.
Thing that saddens me the most is we are WHers. That used to mean we outthought, outplayed, learned to overcome, adapt and theory our way through ANY change.

That spirit seems to be gone and that saddens me.



or we will do that anyways but think this is a **** change regardless?
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