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Missions & Complexes

 
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Hacking Mini Game = Biggest Pile Of Crap Ever

First post
Author
Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#161 - 2014-12-13 08:04:06 UTC
Quanah Comanche wrote:
Tipa Riot wrote:
I get the feeling this goes in the wrong direction now ... by making it more complex, you increase the time it takes to hack a can Ugh. There are already those sleeper caches for people who like 30min of puzzle solving. Others do it for the ISK ...



And the more isk, the harder it should be. Risk...reward you know all that.

Aren't you the one who advised not scanning WHs? Great idea to offer new explorers.

Yeah, it is like with every PvE activity in EvE, once it starts to get a "profession" an important factor is efficiency and ISK/h. Non-combat exploration as an income source imo is in a unique position, as it creates decent ISK with very low risk and by providing some fun gameplay at the same time. I'm looking forward to the changes (and I'm in a more positive mood about as I was when I wrote the comment Big smile), and the new numbers are great, cause they support the hacking flow and the way of thinking.

But at the end of the day, all fun and romantic feelings put aside, PvE in EvE is there to raise the ISK you can burn elsewhere which is rated by ISK/h.

I'm my own NPC alt.

Yroc Jannseen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#162 - 2014-12-13 15:10:40 UTC
CCP Bayesian wrote:
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
Undocked with Astero to check the hacking change. Did one data in hisec. I think it a very good feature. It will help a lot with hardest can types. Especially in the end when only few nodes left. I've noticed i slow down the clickfest to check the numbers, it may be dangerous a bit for explorers in lower sec regions.
CCP Bayesian wrote:
Hopefully I'll be able to put out some more improvements as I get time to work on them.

You have more of them? There was something with more than one system core.


Yeah I've implemented multiple cores as a prototype which works pretty nicely. The idea is to give people a little more finesse in balancing their own risk vs. reward by splitting the loot up between cores. I'm also looking at multiple levels so you'd go deeper into the systems for more special reward and as a kind of precursor to making it viable to hack in an offensive way which probably needs something a bit more complex. The biggest requirement for this sort of stuff is a feature to tie it into though.

In the meantime I'd like to put in some more utilities and defensive software to up the variation a bit more. I did actually add in a counter defensive software to the direction indicator and there are some obvious utilities to help out with that. We'll probably put these out as we get time.


Have you guys looked at a version of the game where players take a defensive role? In other words this as a form of pvp.

It would have to be tied into some other game mechanic, but the idea of two fleets fighting it out while two people play space chess to out hack each other is entertaining to me.
Quintessen
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#163 - 2014-12-16 16:25:46 UTC
Can we at least get the sites to de-spawn after there is no more loot. I've been to multiple sites where there are only empty cans remaining. Still un-hacked, but empty.
Orlacc
#164 - 2014-12-16 18:09:35 UTC
Quintessen wrote:
Can we at least get the sites to de-spawn after there is no more loot. I've been to multiple sites where there are only empty cans remaining. Still un-hacked, but empty.



They do despawn

"Measure Twice, Cut Once."

Varyah
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#165 - 2014-12-18 12:50:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Varyah
I find most aspects of the current system rather silly in the sense that the depiction of "hacking" is something you can do ad hoc with some fancy graphical interface starting with zero knowledge and tools, similar to the often even more silly depictions in movies and TV shows. Especially when you have some computer science or programming background you would expect something different.

I accept that it should be something like a minigame. Just activating your module and waiting for the loot to appear is kind of boring and too similar to mining.

But first I would appreciate a smaller/resizable interface.

Second I would envision "hacking" more like a tower defense minigame:
Lets say we salvage the current layout of the minigame but you start with some tools instead of discovering good stuff (as a hacker you don't hack a computer and find suddenly on that computer a program that you can use to shut down the antivirus software, you bring that yourself). The amount and power of these tools depends on skills and skilllevels and/or modules.

  • For example you start with two port scanners, a rootkit (use to make one of your tools invisible) and a few different types of viruses/malware (insert fancy names for them).
  • You place these tools like towers in discovered areas (nodes in the current layout), you start on one side of the "map".
  • Port scanners unveil nodes one by one each round automatically.
  • If the port scanner is detected, i.e. gameplay: You unveil a node with a defense system, this defense system sends out "minions" (defense routines) to attack your port scanners.
  • Now you place your fancily named malware in the right place to spawn your own "minions" (attack routines) to overwhelm the defense system.
  • Essentially you have to choose the right malware to attack specific types of defense systems and/or find the weak spot in the defense so that your "minions" reach the opposite side of the "map".
  • Add optional goals (total annihilation / destroy all of certain type of defense system / don't lose any of your systems / win without using the rootkit / etc.) for additional loot in the cans.



edit: An even better idea than "minions" would be a system of control. In a radius around your "towers" you gain control while the enemy towers slow you down or even remove your control the more enemy systems activate. This would even be really simple to implement, just color the nodes and edges in the current interface differently according to control level. And the goal would be to position your tools so that at some point (the vulnerable one of the system) you gain enough control so you can break through the defense. Possibly bonus for not being detected.
Jenshae Chiroptera
#166 - 2015-01-29 19:00:20 UTC
CCP Bayesian wrote:
Vol Arm'OOO wrote:
Antillie Sa'Kan wrote:
I kind of like it. Its a nice blend of character skill and actual skill. Just saying.


You sir are completely out of your mind. There is no actual skill involved. It is simply a button click fest. Actually, I take that back. There is some player skill involved. Pressing that button faster and faster is a kinda a player skill.


We actually have an AI we use for testing which does a lot more than clicking quickly and doesn't cheat. I'm not going to say there is a huge skill ceiling but there certainly is one particularly in the harder systems. I've not yet seen a guide online that hits all the points we use. Granted they get the majority of really meaningful things correct and Hacking in hostile space is a bit different to a computer crunching.

I actually quite like the idea of remaking the AI to be used in EVE, dumbing it down a bit and slowing it up so people can choose to fit an Auto-Hacking module. You'd be less successful overall but it'd be nice for people who don't want to Hack themselves.

I also think there is a lot of room for giving high skill level Hackers something else to do.
Totally supported.
The auto hack would also keep you in one spot longer, open to attack, I hope. Twisted

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

d026
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
#167 - 2015-01-29 21:10:05 UTC
i utterely dislike the new hacking system. its a horrible klickfest, please implement the automated hacker II's. or just make the module how it was before. the minigame does not add anything to the game except frustration.
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#168 - 2015-01-29 21:29:17 UTC
yeah auto hacker 2 should have a 3 minute cycle time though and you can't move while it's on
Orlacc
#169 - 2015-01-29 22:09:23 UTC
How about not messing with exploration any more for a spell?

"Measure Twice, Cut Once."

Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#170 - 2015-01-29 22:57:43 UTC
Oh my goodness, "auto-hacker" modules are the dumbest thing I've read in a while ... what's wrong with the minigame? If you can't beat it, get better! If it's not challenging enough, why bother?

I'm my own NPC alt.

Garreth Arji
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#171 - 2015-01-29 23:10:00 UTC
I have to agree that the mini-game is not cool. A lot of people undertook hacking and exploration as a semi-passive income when we had to do other things like study or work simultaneously saving our miniscule active game time for PVP & fun. This can;t be done anymore as CCP makes the game more and more against people having any passive income. This is a game that I got into because it was too complex for most warcraft folks to come to, and also allowed passive income generation to spend active time having fun in PVP. Both of those selling points for me are gone now.

It's a choice between 3 options and none of them are appealing to me.

1 - Leave EVE alltogether, stop paying money to them and in turn abandon all my friends I made in this game I used to love.

2 - Continue playing EVE, paying a sub, yet never feeling that I get any value out of it because all my time goes into making isk and moving assets around to prepare for PVP I never get to take part in.

3 - Continue playing and paying, forget PVP and fun, and simply have a social environment that allows practice making spreadsheets and playing markets.

Sadly, I go with option 3 because there is nothing else, but this eve is not the eve that captured my attention, drew me in, and captivated me for the darkest years of my life. That old eve got me through some tough stuff IRL and now it is not the thing I grew to love anymore
DeMichael Crimson
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#172 - 2015-01-29 23:19:17 UTC
Tipa Riot wrote:
Oh my goodness, "auto-hacker" modules are the dumbest thing I've read in a while ... what's wrong with the minigame? If you can't beat it, get better! If it's not challenging enough, why bother?

I'll tell you what's wrong with the mini-game.


First of all it's a damn click-fest.

Secondly it takes up way too much area on the screen.

Thirdly it takes too long to complete.

Fourth, there's more 'Risk' involved than there is 'Reward'.

Fifth, cargo scanners allow players to 'Meta-game' the sites.


In my opinion that makes them worthless. Definitely not exploration but more like traps to lure in easy victims.

And yes I have max skills with top of the line equipment.



DMC
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#173 - 2015-01-29 23:35:00 UTC
make them immune to cargo scanners :D
Garreth Arji
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#174 - 2015-01-29 23:50:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Garreth Arji
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
make them immune to cargo scanners :D


I'd rather make the small amount of active gaming time I have immune to wasteful time sinks. Exploration was always meant to be an income source, not content in and of itself until this mini-game came into existence. That only happened because they spend so much time looking for ways to increase monetization that the game has become more about subscriber revenue than about the game. I feel betrayed as a bitter vet. I left before and gave away all my original accounts and assets, yes regretfully I will add. However, coming back to the game because of social interaction, old friends, some family who still play, etc. has brought me back into a game that I find more malice for than love.

I'm not the only person that sees this either. The only way I know how to explain this is that it feels like an active campaign against my time and the only way to fight it is to be rich and pay more IRL $ to this company in an attempt to get the same level of service that used to be available without the extra time, money and effort. Effectively, the ability to extract fun from this game has been squandered for the sake of higher numbers next to that $ symbol in their accounting department.
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#175 - 2015-01-30 09:42:54 UTC
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
First of all it's a damn click-fest.

They add new mechanism to hacking few patches ago. Now we have bigger impact where do we want to go on grid. Reduced clicking a lot. As for improving whole thing CCP Bayesian had some aces in the sleeve, not all features were implemented at day 1 as far as i know. It's fine imo, if i can hack +15 devices/cans in sleeper cache and don't vomit it's good.
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Totally supported.
The auto hack would also keep you in one spot longer, open to attack, I hope

I think it would be good option for those who don't want to hack actively. I can hack a can in 15-20 sec, 3 min is enough for passive activity. Chance based ofc.

About cargo scanning, i think i will change side and vote for no removing it.

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville

d026
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
#176 - 2015-01-30 10:45:34 UTC
Tipa Riot wrote:
Oh my goodness, "auto-hacker" modules are the dumbest thing I've read in a while ... what's wrong with the minigame? If you can't beat it, get better! If it's not challenging enough, why bother?


hacking is not hard.. but its boring because you have to klick an average of 50 nodes!
d026
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
#177 - 2015-01-30 10:51:21 UTC
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
First of all it's a damn click-fest.

They add new mechanism to hacking few patches ago. Now we have bigger impact where do we want to go on grid. Reduced clicking a lot. As for improving whole thing CCP Bayesian had some aces in the sleeve, not all features were implemented at day 1 as far as i know. It's fine imo, if i can hack +15 devices/cans in sleeper cache and don't vomit it's good.
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Totally supported.
The auto hack would also keep you in one spot longer, open to attack, I hope

I think it would be good option for those who don't want to hack actively. I can hack a can in 15-20 sec, 3 min is enough for passive activity. Chance based ofc.

About cargo scanning, i think i will change side and vote for no removing it.


3 minutes is hilarious. a hacking attempt should take no longer than maybe 15 seconds!
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#178 - 2015-01-30 13:17:20 UTC
d026 wrote:
3 minutes is hilarious. a hacking attempt should take no longer than maybe 15 seconds!

Faster than manual scanning, and maybe with 100% chance of succes? No. You must put and effort into activity to get a candy.

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville

Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#179 - 2015-01-30 13:25:39 UTC
Why don't all you people who hate hacking maybe........................DONT DO IT?

There's plenty of other ways of making money in this game, if you don't like the minigame nobody is forcing you to do it.

Exploration should have risk associated with it, it's not some cash cow you can just milk without consequence.
Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#180 - 2015-01-30 13:42:50 UTC
Now I see where this comes from ... some of you expect passive income from exploration. For myself I picked exploration because it is not passive and can be combined with PvP opportunities. So far it took me a couple of hours in roaming on a weekend to fund a couple of weeks PvP. Though I honor a reasonable ISK/h ratio, I bet for passive income it's better to rent goon space and let some "AFKtars" do their job.

Regarding "auto-hacking", if this module performs significantly worse than any manual low-skill hacker and pins you at the point (like bastion mode), I'm fine with it. In general I think, EvE needs more and not less activities which require actual player skills.

Just my point of view.

I'm my own NPC alt.