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Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
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Capital Mining Barge - Bahamut

First post
Author
Amy Utama
State War Academy
Caldari State
#41 - 2014-08-15 17:13:18 UTC
James Baboli wrote:

This Capital Ship can fit a Industrial Jump Generator it allows non jump capable Mining ships to be moved in Bulk.

The Industrial Jump Generator has the same required skills as the Jump Portal Generator that the titan uses. It Functions different it expands the ships Jump Drive Field to bring other ships with it. only the following ships will be allowed to be carried:
Orca
Hulk
Covetor
Mackinaw
Retriever
Skiff
Procurer
Prospect
Venture


So, do they all get sucked off with you, or do you create a jump bridge?
If they all get sucked with you, then it becomes an easy way to jump one in and kidnap an entire hostile mining fleet.
Also, allowing it to move an orca means you just circumvented the "no fitting service" you listed as a balancing measure.
Grats.
If its a jump portal generator, why duplicate the functionality?
Amy Utama wrote:

Industrial Jump Generator
Activation Cost: 1000 GJ
Fuel Consumption: 1000 Strontium Clathrates
Duration: 60 s

So, a worse jump portal generator, without the disallows assistance flag, or using your jump fuel.... I totally can't think of any way to break this, with a battle venture fleet consisting of the entire CFC or something.[/quote]

Removed for balancing and good arguments
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#42 - 2014-08-15 17:20:00 UTC
Amy Utama wrote:

Read this carefully:

The Following stats are for a character with the

BEST POSSIBLE BOOSTER WITH THE BEST IMPLANTS AND BEST SKILLS FOR BOTH THE BOOSTER AND MINER!!!!

So it all comes out as even numbers after skills and boosters and so on? Gotta love the bass-ackwards nature of the stats then.

Amy Utama wrote:

Capital Strip Miner:
Capacity: 40 m3 (1 capital crystal)
Activation Cost: 300 Gj
Optimal Range: 50 km

So.... from one end of a belt to the other. interesting. and ends up with a trivial cap cost for the mining lasers @ 1.666 cap/s, which is only about 3x a zero skill, unlinked strip miner 1s cap/s
Amy Utama wrote:

Activation Time / Duration: 180 s

So, some horrible mess of non-rational decimals as the base stats? hmm.
Amy Utama wrote:

Mining Amount: 9,000 m3 {3,000 m3 per min} - Includes Bonus from Crystal
Required Mining Crystal Size: Large (40 m3 each)

So..... it mines almost twice as fast as a max skill hulk with implants but no links per laser. wow.

Amy Utama wrote:

Requires Industrial Reactor: 1 - Per Capital Strip miner
*When Activated Links with 1 non activated Industrial Reactor and activates the Reactor*

So, a third single purpose, only on this ship module is needed to use the second special snowflake module? Wow. what a concept. It needs a minimum of 3 modules to be introduced, the BPs seeded and so on, for a single purpose ship.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp

Llyona
Lazerhawks
L A Z E R H A W K S
#43 - 2014-08-15 17:29:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Llyona
Amy Utama wrote:
Capital Mining Barge - Bahamut

Role Bonus
Can Only Fit Capital Strip Miners
Can Fit Industrial Reactor

I have taken in suggestions and have made adjustments
*cannot mine Ice*


I would be okay with this if you tweaked a few aspects of the ship.

1) Make the Capital Strip Miners cycle time 5 minutes and yield 2500m3/cycle (500m3/min).

2) Allow the ship to mine the full 12500m3/cycle with the utilization of a "Mining Optimization Module" or some other module. This module should effectively behave like a Siege/Triage Module, in that it would increase mining yield by 500% at the cost of preventing the ship from moving and warping away while it is active. This module should have a 5 minute duration.

2) The powergrid should be lowered to the point that this behemoth would not be able to fit capital sized repair modules and a fully optimized mining setup. You should have to choose between make nom, or reduced nom with tank.

3) This thing should be expensive and require fleet support. I like the limitations in cargo space you provided, however I think it should be limited to the maximum amount the mining modules can yield in one cycle with max skills.

4) No drones. This ship is already ridiculously "specialized" Blink in the mining role. Giving it drone bandwidth will only make it easier for it to escape an interceptor. A ship this powerful should pretty much be screwed if it gets caught without a backup fleet.

5) Make it incapable of fitting Warp Core Stabilizers.

That's my $0.02

EVE is an illness, for which there is no cure.

James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#44 - 2014-08-15 17:31:10 UTC
Amy Utama wrote:


Fitting:
High Power Slot
CPU: 125 tf
130,000 MW

Now if only we had seen some sort of stats for the base hull to compare these to.

Amy Utama wrote:

Skill requirements
Capital Strip Miner Level 1 (allows activation of 1 Per Skill Level)
Mining Level 5
Deep Core Mining Level 5
Capital Mining Crystal:
Same basic skills as Tech 2 but require all processing skills to level 5

So it needs max skills that you already should have as a miner, and on 1 toon at a minimum if an industrialist in null. Sign me up.

Amy Utama wrote:

Industrial Reactor:
Allows activation of 1 Capital Strip Miner per Industrial Reactor.
Redirects power from the drive system to the strip miner

Alright, so introduce the horrors of 1:1 module linked dependancies. great. This is totally not a bad idea.

Amy Utama wrote:

Industrial Reactor:
Low Slot
Capacity: 30 m3
Activation Cost: 1 x Gallente Fuel Block
Activation Time / Duration: 10 minutes

So, it has a HUGE capacity, and a tiny fuel usage. Nice. Another way to store extra fuel to fuel the tower it will end up living in.

Amy Utama wrote:

Reduces ship acceleration: 25% Per Reactor (does not reduce ships max speed)
Increases align time: 25% Per Reactor
Cannot Activate Jump Drive or Industrial Jump Generator
*5 reactors running makes the ship immobile*

Unless, as elsewhere, we resort to single case programing, no these modules don't end up making the ship immobile, and become far far less significant after the first 2. It just so happens that EVE has this little thing called a stacking penalty, and align time (unless done through mass, in which case capital coasting like WOAH) and acceleration (again, unless done through mass) are both controlled by a statistic which is stacking penalized, and this usually affects both ways.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp

Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#45 - 2014-08-15 17:32:50 UTC
it would get hotdropped all the time .. there is no profit here ... fix the Rorqual .. maybe it could do much the same function along with what it already does ..

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using

James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#46 - 2014-08-15 17:32:51 UTC
I'm done for now. If someone finishes off the remaining points to the fisking, I'd be happy, but I need to go for now.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp

Amy Utama
State War Academy
Caldari State
#47 - 2014-08-15 17:49:16 UTC
James Baboli wrote:
I'm done for now. If someone finishes off the remaining points to the fisking, I'd be happy, but I need to go for now.


reread the main post before posting with items that have bin removed or changed and remember you are comparing a Cruiser sized mining ship to a very large Capital sized mining ship
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#48 - 2014-08-15 19:11:06 UTC
Considering the changes, the fisking will stop. that changes happened in response to critisism indicate that the author is not in need of a full fisking, and while the implentation sucks, the idea is interesting. It retains some of the worst aspects of the origional still, like using bonuses from a ship skill substantially smaller than it, and a yield that obsoletes anything smaller. It is an interesting addition to the capital industrial lineup, and belongs in that limited category.

Tank:

Quote:
Exhumers Bonuses (Per Skill Level)
4% Bonus to Shield Resistances

Besides being a capital getting bonuses from a ship skill which is mostly cruisers, this brings the EHP and native resist profile way out of line with anything else close to the category, especially with the flat HP profile. Every other ORE ship has either a massive hull HP or a massive shield HP, but 100k HP in all three is a bad idea.

Reactors:

The reactors linking to one single laser is a nice touch for realism, but they still are a special case as no other module uses isotopes as fuel directly from the mod itself, rather all other mods use them from the fuel bay. Given the fairly large fuel bay for something without a jump bridge, this is a reasonable draw on the fuel bay even with 5 of them fit. The other issue is that every other module with a similar effect (triage, siege bastion) is a high slot and 1 to a ship, rather than 1:1 with the module(s) they effect. They also, due to stacking penalty, would not actually make the ship immobile without hard coding such a thing.

Mining output:
So, basic mineral prices (and the underlying income of miners) are the balancing factor of costs for most capital ships. Thus these need to be carefully considered when applying massive changes to mining output per character per unit of time. As it is, this represents a 10-12x increase in the maximum m3 taken in per toon per hour. This is scalar with the DPS output of a battleship to a super-carrier, but supers and seiged dreads were balanced around killing POS shields, not with killing each other. The current output of such ships is so high because Sov is currently a MASSIVE grind, with millions of EHP per thing that you need to kill. thus balancing following this sort of scaling is not going to be effective.Your concept, while a nice concept, is too big to be effectively balanced. A smaller version, closer to a dread in size, would likely be much more effective. Total output of roughly five times a tank fit hulk or four times that of a max yield hulk is probably better, and more likely to be usable and balanced.

Slot layout:
5/5/5 is a very powerful layout on anything with capital PG and CPU to play with, even if it lacks hardpoints. If the reactor is made more like conventional siege (1 to a ship, high slot), a 6/4/4 profile might make sense, as would a 6/5/2 if it is intended to mostly be shield tanked, as the bonus proposed suggested.

Skills:

There is already a skill for ships used for industrial purposes at the capital scale. It is called "Capital Industrial ships" and as such, you ship falls fairly squarely into the role the name implies. Forcing orca and rorqual pilots to train another capital skill to fly a capital industrial ship is bad.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp

Komi Toran
Perkone
Caldari State
#49 - 2014-08-15 19:30:49 UTC
Amy Utama wrote:
[quote=James Baboli]remember you are comparing a Cruiser sized mining ship to a very large Capital sized mining ship

So what? Does that mean its mining lasers can't track small 'roids or something?

No. Just no. As long as you think capital = MOAR MINING, no.

It can't dock. So, this is for alts only. This is only for those people with 20 mining accounts. No.

The concept is just bad.
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#50 - 2014-08-15 19:36:52 UTC
Komi Toran wrote:
Amy Utama wrote:
[quote=James Baboli]remember you are comparing a Cruiser sized mining ship to a very large Capital sized mining ship

So what? Does that mean its mining lasers can't track small 'roids or something?

No. Just no. As long as you think capital = MOAR MINING, no.

It can't dock. So, this is for alts only. This is only for those people with 20 mining accounts. No.

The concept is just bad.

The base concept isn't bad. A bigger, more skill intensive barge. Now, load it down with "features" like a jump drive, massive tank, freighter sized capacity, a piecemeal seige module, and several special case bits of coding, and it becomes a monstrosity. Gimme a straight up, upsized t1 capital barge based off the orca to mine with, that generates competative isk/hr as being okay at l4s but costs a motherload, and needs orca skills + mining skills, and you have my interest.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp

Komi Toran
Perkone
Caldari State
#51 - 2014-08-15 20:12:32 UTC
James Baboli wrote:
Gimme a straight up, upsized t1 capital barge based off the orca to mine with, that generates competative isk/hr as being okay at l4s but costs a motherload, and needs orca skills + mining skills, and you have my interest.

Cost is not a limiter. This should have been made obvious with the proliferation of Titans. The only thing that matters is how much can a character generate with this ship. If it's more than a hulk, it's a non-starter, even if it costs 10 or 100 times more.
Llyona
Lazerhawks
L A Z E R H A W K S
#52 - 2014-08-15 20:53:19 UTC
Komi Toran wrote:
James Baboli wrote:
Gimme a straight up, upsized t1 capital barge based off the orca to mine with, that generates competative isk/hr as being okay at l4s but costs a motherload, and needs orca skills + mining skills, and you have my interest.

Cost is not a limiter.

It is when you take into consideration the probability of it being blown up.

Make this beast require a siege type module with a 5 minute duration in order to out mine a regular mining barge and you have yourself an equation that makes this idea more reasonable.

EVE is an illness, for which there is no cure.

Christopher Mabata
Northern Accounts and Systems
#53 - 2014-08-15 21:29:31 UTC
No this is pointless

You already have fleets of Exhumers and barges boosted by rorquals, you dont need something that obsoletes all of them in a second. Or mines out entire belts in minutes by itself

Can you even give us a good reason why there should be such a thing in the game? With particular detail to balancing, cost, use of other smaller ships compared to this, and such?

♣ Small Gang PVP, Large Fleet PVP, Black Ops, Incursions, Trade, and Industry ♣ 70% Lethal / 30% Super-Snuggly / 110% No idea what im doing ♣

This Message Brought to you by a sweet and sour bittervet

Arronicus
State War Academy
Caldari State
#54 - 2014-08-15 21:39:28 UTC
Amy Utama wrote:
Capital Mining Barge - Seabiscuit


Capital Mining Barge Traits

Mining Barge Bonuses (Per Skill Level)
5% Reduction to Strip Miner Duration
4% Bonus to Ship Mining Amount

Exhumers Bonuses (Per Skill Level)
4% Bonus to Shield Resistances
3% Reduction to Strip Miner Duration



I don't think you understand how Eve works. Capital ships do not get the affects of tech 2 sub-capital ship skills. Just as jump freighters do not benefit from Transport Ships, and dreadnaughts do not benefit from Marauders, it doesn't make any sense whatsoever that your capital mining barge would benefit from Exhumers.

Now, while a multitude of reasons have been pointed out of why this is such a bad thing that would be of an overall negative change to Eve, including the fact that ore prices would drop respective to the increased yield of this ship, that this would completely obsolete any other ore miners, and in general just be far too much of a gap between the traditional role of mining ships (protect me while I mine ore);
noone seems to be paying proper attention to the name.

For your suggestion, 'Seabiscuit' would be far more apt.
Komi Toran
Perkone
Caldari State
#55 - 2014-08-15 21:48:54 UTC
Llyona wrote:
It is when you take into consideration the probability of it being blown up.

This is binary: Either the ship will recover its cost over its lifetime, and so will replace exhumers, or it will not, and so will not be used. In the first, cost is not a limiter. In the second, you have wasted development time on a pointless ship.
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#56 - 2014-08-15 22:01:01 UTC
Komi Toran wrote:
Llyona wrote:
It is when you take into consideration the probability of it being blown up.

This is binary: Either the ship will recover its cost over its lifetime, and so will replace exhumers, or it will not, and so will not be used. In the first, cost is not a limiter. In the second, you have wasted development time on a pointless ship.

This is non-binary, because you have infant mortality (I went AFK in a null belt and it died to an officer spawn while I was AFK), and you have people beating the odds (Ninja-mining in a hostile staging system). I have heard of both happening.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp

Komi Toran
Perkone
Caldari State
#57 - 2014-08-15 22:05:02 UTC
James Baboli wrote:
This is non-binary, because you have infant mortality...

Because exhumers never have to contend with popping before they've paid for themselves, let alone the cost differential between them and a barge.

It's binary.
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#58 - 2014-08-15 22:13:44 UTC
Komi Toran wrote:
James Baboli wrote:
This is non-binary, because you have infant mortality...

Because exhumers never have to contend with popping before they've paid for themselves, let alone the cost differential between them and a barge.

It's binary.

Its a curve, with a range of average lifecycle vs. ROI varying by space, player habits, tank relative to rats etc. Generally, this sort of thing would have to cost like the dickens or be extrodinarily fragile compared to null/low rats, or be forced to seige to mine at all in order to get similar sorts of investment choice with t1/t2/large being a function of how good your intel net is, how good you are at listening to it, how good your tank skills are and so on.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp

Antillie Sa'Kan
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#59 - 2014-08-15 22:45:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Antillie Sa'Kan
Amy Utama wrote:
Komi Toran wrote:
Basically obsoletes barges and exhumers. And everything else that's wrong with it. Not supported.


If by that you are mean it wont take someone a dozen or more accounts and a 200 man corp, to build stuff then these ships have bin obsolete for a very very long time

What ever made you think that it shouldn't take a large group effort to build something big or worthwhile?

I fail to see any reason why we need a "bigger Hulk". The Hulk already fills this role. There is no point in making another mining ship higher than it.

If you want to propose a new mining ship, propose an ice mining version of the Prospect.
James Nikolas Tesla
Tesla Holdings
#60 - 2014-08-16 01:07:28 UTC
Amy Utama wrote:
[center]
Capital Strip Miner:
Capacity: 40 m3 (1 capital crystal)
Activation Cost: 600 Gj
Optimal Range: 30 km
Activation Time / Duration: 180 s *includes boosts and implants*
Mining Amount: 9,000 m3 {3,000 m3 per min} - Includes Bonus from Crystal *includes boosts and implants*
Required Mining Crystal Size: Large (40 m3 each)
Requires Industrial Reactor: 1 - Per Capital Strip miner
*Cannot Mine Ice*
*When Activated Links with 1 non activated Industrial Reactor and activates the Reactor*

No, just no. All they need to do is fix the Rorqual.

CODE is just a bunch of pirates; smart, organized pirates. It doesn't help to rage at them because that is exactly what they want. Dust yourself off and get back on your feet, you don't even have to talk to them.