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Dreadnaught vs Supercarrier
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Lyrka Bloodberry
Spybeaver
#21 - 2011-11-22 16:08:50 UTC
Casius Omega wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
Of course the 20 SC pilots would never bring 130 of their friends in a well balanced fleet of sub caps to balance things out numerically, and give themselves a huge advantage.



This is off-topic


Ummm, no, it is not. That is exactly what I wanted to say (and what you commented with "correct")

If 20 Players could take on 150 on their own when the sum of costs on both sides is the same it is NOT a well balanced situation, as the 20 have the opportunity to bring 130 friends, which the other side has not.

Spybeaver
Casius Omega
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#22 - 2011-11-22 16:16:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Casius Omega
Why where supercaps nerfed?

Because people blobed with them.

This patch is doing nothing to stop that if anything its promoting it.

You think supercap blobs are going to go away? Nope
You think supercap blobs dont have blues they can batphone for subcaps?
Nalha Saldana
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#23 - 2011-11-22 16:20:12 UTC
Casius Omega wrote:
Why where supercaps nerfed?

Because people blobed with them.

This patch is doing nothing to stop that if anything its promoting it.

You think supercap blobs are going to go away? Nope
You think supercap blobs dont have blues they can batphone for subcaps? Yep


This patch brings the one thing to supers we need: Death

With less EHP and no logoff mechanic they will die a lot more instead of massing up into the undying blob.
FlameGlow
Perkone
Caldari State
#24 - 2011-11-22 16:21:50 UTC
Casius Omega wrote:
Why where supercaps nerfed?

Because people blobed with them.

This patch is doing nothing to stop that if anything its promoting it.

You think supercap blobs are going to go away? Nope
You think supercap blobs dont have blues they can batphone for subcaps? Yep


The idea is to allow killing said supercaps, and yet supercaps being killable by dreads is what you're complaining about?
I read it as "I got some supercaps, but not many. Nerf everyone else but me"
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#25 - 2011-11-22 16:29:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Andski
FlameGlow wrote:
Casius Omega wrote:
Why where supercaps nerfed?

Because people blobed with them.

This patch is doing nothing to stop that if anything its promoting it.

You think supercap blobs are going to go away? Nope
You think supercap blobs dont have blues they can batphone for subcaps? Yep


The idea is to allow killing said supercaps, and yet supercaps being killable by dreads is what you're complaining about?
I read it as "I got some supercaps, but not many. Nerf everyone else but me"


It's also a highly unlikely hypothetical situation (nobody can drop 150 dreads at a moment's notice, full stop) and unaccompanied dreads are a terrible counter to supercapital blobs and a terrible idea in general.

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Fronkfurter McSheebleton
Horse Feathers
CAStabouts
#26 - 2011-11-22 16:37:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Fronkfurter McSheebleton
Is the OP really trying to bring in cost effectiveness as an argument here?

What would win, a Jaguar, or 100 rifters?

A Daredevil, or four hundred incursi?

A Vindicator, or twenty dominixes? (domini?)

thhief ghabmoef
Casius Omega
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#27 - 2011-11-22 16:37:58 UTC
Andski wrote:
FlameGlow wrote:
Casius Omega wrote:
Why where supercaps nerfed?

Because people blobed with them.

This patch is doing nothing to stop that if anything its promoting it.

You think supercap blobs are going to go away? Nope
You think supercap blobs dont have blues they can batphone for subcaps? Yep


The idea is to allow killing said supercaps, and yet supercaps being killable by dreads is what you're complaining about?
I read it as "I got some supercaps, but not many. Nerf everyone else but me"


It's also a highly unlikely hypothetical situation (nobody can drop 150 dreads at a moment's notice, full stop) and unaccompanied dreads are a terrible counter to supercapital blobs and a terrible idea in general.




Basically this patch hurt the smaller alliances or alliances with a few to dozen supercaps. Its not going to do anything to big sc alliances like PL/Raiden. /WN ect..
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#28 - 2011-11-22 16:41:28 UTC
Casius Omega wrote:
Andski wrote:
FlameGlow wrote:
Casius Omega wrote:
Why where supercaps nerfed?

Because people blobed with them.

This patch is doing nothing to stop that if anything its promoting it.

You think supercap blobs are going to go away? Nope
You think supercap blobs dont have blues they can batphone for subcaps? Yep


The idea is to allow killing said supercaps, and yet supercaps being killable by dreads is what you're complaining about?
I read it as "I got some supercaps, but not many. Nerf everyone else but me"


It's also a highly unlikely hypothetical situation (nobody can drop 150 dreads at a moment's notice, full stop) and unaccompanied dreads are a terrible counter to supercapital blobs and a terrible idea in general.




Basically this patch hurt the smaller alliances or alliances with a few to dozen supercaps. Its not going to do anything to big sc alliances like PL/Raiden. /WN ect..


Right, so the nerf should be undone, leaving us back at square one with infallible supercapital blobs?

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Daedalus Arcova
The Scope
#29 - 2011-11-22 16:58:42 UTC
Casius Omega wrote:
Why where supercaps nerfed?

Because people blobed with them.


Wrong.

They were nerfed because they were practically indestructible solopwnmobiles that could successfully engage both capital and subcapital targets with no need for proper support.

'Supercapital blobs' are a thing of the past, as of this expansion. You can't just roll in to a battle with a ton of SCs and no subcap support and expect to get anything other than faceraped.

Hopefully, the same will soon apply to Abaddon blobs, Drake blobs, Maelstrom blobs, Hurricane blobs and every other boring-as-**** fleet 'composition' that is basically just as many of one OP ship type as the FC can cajole into a fleet, with a smattering of logistics and tacklers. The destroyer buff goes a small way to mixing things up a bit, but I remain to be convinced that CCP's combined-arms vision of the EVE fleet is ever actually going to become a reality.
Aamrr
#30 - 2011-11-22 18:05:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Aamrr
The problem with the "mixed fleet composition" you're talking about is a lack of redundancy. If you're bringing a mixed composition then there's going to be fewer ships of a given type -- and if your fleet depends on them, then the enemy has fewer ships to chew through before you're defeated. And if there's two ships that can accomplish a given role, one will probably end up being better suited...so why mix in the inferior one?

There's strength in uniformity.

Edit: Perhaps the most obvious exception is in avoiding singular damage type fleets. Abaddons are great ships, but they deal almost exclusively EM damage. Letting your opponent fit dedicated hardeners to counter you isn't a very good scenario. You could include ships like Tempests to address this problem, but it's very difficult to tank a Tempest (or similar) to the standards you'd expect in an Abaddon fleet. So here we are.
Lyrka Bloodberry
Spybeaver
#31 - 2011-11-22 20:01:26 UTC
Casius Omega wrote:
Andski wrote:
FlameGlow wrote:
Casius Omega wrote:
Why where supercaps nerfed?

Because people blobed with them.

This patch is doing nothing to stop that if anything its promoting it.

You think supercap blobs are going to go away? Nope
You think supercap blobs dont have blues they can batphone for subcaps? Yep


The idea is to allow killing said supercaps, and yet supercaps being killable by dreads is what you're complaining about?
I read it as "I got some supercaps, but not many. Nerf everyone else but me"


It's also a highly unlikely hypothetical situation (nobody can drop 150 dreads at a moment's notice, full stop) and unaccompanied dreads are a terrible counter to supercapital blobs and a terrible idea in general.




Basically this patch hurt the smaller alliances or alliances with a few to dozen supercaps. Its not going to do anything to big sc alliances like PL/Raiden. /WN ect..


God... he isn't even discussing. Just throwing in pseudo-facts.
Discussion is over for me...

Spybeaver
Baden Luskan
Freeworlds Collective
#32 - 2011-11-22 21:22:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Baden Luskan
As far as I know, supercarriers are still immune ot all electronic warefare. Dreadnaughts are not. That means the supercarriers can leave any time they want (the exception being an infinate point or a bubble locking them down).

Also, supercarriers are alot more useful. Kinda hard to move stuff on long trips around in a dreadnaught. A supercarrier can move a small fleet of ships in itself.

Dreadnaughts do one thing, and one thing well: they put ALOT of DPS on one target that is big and not moving very fast. If you ask it to do much else, it is going to fail.
Cambarus
The Baros Syndicate
#33 - 2011-11-22 21:39:24 UTC
Baden Luskan wrote:
As far as I know, supercarriers are still immune ot all electronic warefare. Dreadnaughts are not. That means the supercarriers can leave any time they want (the exception being an infinate point or a bubble locking them down).

Also, supercarriers are alot more useful. Kinda hard to move stuff on long trips around in a dreadnaught. A supercarrier can move a small fleet of ships in itself.

Dreadnaughts do one thing, and one thing well: they put ALOT of DPS on one target that is big and not moving very fast. If you ask it to do much else, it is going to fail.

To be fair, a well fit dread can track a BS without any issues. I've been having a blast with my moros on sisi these last few weeks.
Dark Pangolin
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#34 - 2011-11-22 21:45:30 UTC
I look forward to flying the new dreads. I have nothing more to add tot his thread other than to note that the intent of the SC "nerf" was to make them kill-able.

I am a low sec pilot primarily and I can tell you from experience that the standard maneuver for a long time from those taht have SCs is drop 1-2 SCs on a gang of 20-25 people...

so 3-5 subcaps and 1-2 SCs vs 20-25 Sub Caps. If you can mange to kill the 3-5 sub-caps and then get a HIC to point the SC...the SC pilot logs off, secure in the knowledge that unless you also have SCs on standby he will ::poof:: and be magically safe long before you can eat through his ehp...


No more logging off to save your life means you may actually have to think twice before dropping your 1-2 SCs on 15 guys and be 99% sure that in a worst case scenario...you just log out.
Julia Connor
P R O M E T H E U S
From Anoikis
#35 - 2011-11-22 22:35:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Julia Connor
Lyrka Bloodberry wrote:
You need 150 Pilots to fly 150 Dreads...
I found it rather stupid if 20 Players were able to take on 150 on their own, if both sides spent almost the same amount of ISK on their ships.


Quoting for errr... Isk determines performance pretty much and some will say it doesn't but it actually does. Although, the increase in performance isn't directly proportional to the increase in cost, It's the main reason you upgrade from T1 to T2 or from T2 to faction. You just don't upgrade cause you can. Where you are getting it wrong is by classifying performance as effectiveness but I doubt 20 supers can tank 150 dreads especially after winter expansion comes live.
Supercarriers will no longer be as effective as dreads and I won't be shocked if the main primaries in large capital fights shifts to dreads now that they deal OMGWTFBBQ dps especially the moros( it needs to be nerfed).
Morale of the story, dreads will still die at the beginning of these kind of battles and even faster than ever before.
Captain Alcatraz
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#36 - 2011-11-23 02:52:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Captain Alcatraz
A pirate cruiser costs 200mil, a T1 cruiser costs 10mil. For the price of 1 faction cruiser you can buy 20 T1 cruisers.

Who would win 1 faction cruiser or 20 T1 cruiser? I think we all know

Thorax does MORE DPS than a Cynabal

- Casius 'HerpDerp' Omega
grazer gin
Raving Rednecks
#37 - 2011-11-23 03:07:27 UTC
WINGE WINGE WINGE

WHINE WHINE WHINE

CRY CRY CRY

So here are my tears how about ccp just remove supers entirely then you got nothing to worry about
Elistea
BLUE Regiment.
#38 - 2011-11-23 09:22:45 UTC
Fail topic.

Dreads always should have had more DPS than SCs.

I would actualy invite small boost to dread's HP.


WTB good old dread battles...
Tore Smith
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#39 - 2011-11-23 10:16:07 UTC
Lyrka Bloodberry wrote:
You need 150 Pilots to fly 150 Dreads...
I found it rather stupid if 20 Players were able to take on 150 on their own, if both sides spent almost the same amount of ISK on their ships.


signed
Mfume Apocal
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#40 - 2011-11-23 11:49:42 UTC
Casius Omega wrote:

Basically this patch hurt the smaller alliances or alliances with a few to dozen supercaps.


No, it will not.
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