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[Hyperion] Incursion changes on Sisi now

First post First post First post
Author
Sniper Smith
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#41 - 2014-08-11 21:46:33 UTC
I like people saying VG Min Logi is 3..

Two Logi is the standard for most VG groups, 1 is more than able to do it (with it being repped by Logi drones from the other ships)..

And that's before we even talk about Marauders.


Scout sites will likely be the same, or even T1 BS's with active reps + logi drones.. should more than keep them up in a 5 man gang..
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#42 - 2014-08-11 21:48:01 UTC
Sniper Smith wrote:
I like people saying VG Min Logi is 3..

Two Logi is the standard for most VG groups, 1 is more than able to do it (with it being repped by Logi drones from the other ships)..

And that's before we even talk about Marauders.


Scout sites will likely be the same, or even T1 BS's with active reps + logi drones.. should more than keep them up in a 5 man gang..

more than just two logi in the cap chain, yes? as in, cap transfers on the battleships? which is smart, and not an isolated two-logi scenario like you make it sound.
Goldiiee
Bureau of Astronomical Anomalies
#43 - 2014-08-11 21:52:24 UTC
Rain6637 wrote:
Sniper Smith wrote:
I like people saying VG Min Logi is 3..

Two Logi is the standard for most VG groups, 1 is more than able to do it (with it being repped by Logi drones from the other ships)..

And that's before we even talk about Marauders.


Scout sites will likely be the same, or even T1 BS's with active reps + logi drones.. should more than keep them up in a 5 man gang..

more than just two logi in the cap chain, yes? as in, cap transfers on the battleships? which is smart, and not an isolated two-logi scenario like you make it sound.

I know where your coming from, but I haven't seen more than two Logi in a VG fleet in two years, any more than that and your killing your DPS curve and dragging dead weight.

Thatt Guy; I am loading SiSi as well, will try to meet up with anyone there and run a few to check within the hour, plus travel time.

Things that keep me up at night;  Why do we use a voice communication device to send telegraphs? Moore's Law should state, Once you have paid off the last PC upgrade you will need another.

Ramzious
Faction Modules and Munitions
#44 - 2014-08-11 21:59:44 UTC
Anyone referring to 3 logi minimum and cap chain for logi must be remembering the pre "big-nerf" fleets of yore. I have run VG incursions off and on for the last year and anything over two scimitars in a shield fleet is laughed at these days. As a test, some groups run with two logi but make one sit inactive while the other takes care of the entire fleet. I have not run a scout site in ages, may have to try one again. 3 decently tanked (buffer) BC or BS and two logi (simply for the high ecm I see complained about) should be enough for a Scout site.
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#45 - 2014-08-11 22:01:06 UTC
ok, I'll go with it. you only need 2 logi for vanguards, and the 10 ship payout curve is a little more excessive than I claimed earlier?
Thatt Guy
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#46 - 2014-08-11 22:07:04 UTC
Holy crap I forgot how pretty Eve is with full graphics and sound!

OK...
Payout: 3.5 mil + 50 Concord LP
First impression, more LP.
Vanguards pay out 2k LP per site, at least scale it up to 500.

Forming fleet to try sites now, will report back.

Haters gonna hate, Trolls gonna troll.

Safdrof Uta
VELOCIRAPTORS EATING GRILLED CHEESE SANDWICH
New Eden Syndicate
#47 - 2014-08-11 22:10:48 UTC
I regret to inform you that I currently have no numbers, will rectify this and report back when I can.
Niko Lorenzio
United Eve Directorate
#48 - 2014-08-11 22:12:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Niko Lorenzio
Niko Lorenzio wrote:
I used to sometimes take a couple of brand new players into scout site, just for the experience. We could run scout sites with 2-3 day old newbies before with 1 experienced logi frig pilot. Will this still be possible?


Lol.. I just tried it on SiSi. Guess not.

I think it would've been better if you added gate restricted to frig-destroyer/cruiser-battlecruiser in scout/vanguard sites. Lowered their difficulty and allowed them to be done in t1 hulls for a decent income that's at least comparable to level 3-4 missions.
Nerfing vanguards is not a good idea though, so please add another tier between scout a vanguard. Scout being doable in T1 frigs and the next one in T1 cruisers.
Also, increased payout for all lowsec sites would be nice.

The CSM XI Election are now open until March 25th, 2016. Consider Niko Lorenzio for CSM XI.

CSM matters, your voice matters, your vote matters!

Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#49 - 2014-08-11 22:15:07 UTC
Thatt Guy wrote:
Holy crap I forgot how pretty Eve is with full graphics and sound!

OK...
Payout: 3.5 mil + 50 Concord LP
First impression, more LP.
Vanguards pay out 2k LP per site, at least scale it up to 500.

Forming fleet to try sites now, will report back.

scout sites payout WHAT? lol awesome
Sniper Smith
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#50 - 2014-08-11 22:21:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Sniper Smith
Rain6637 wrote:
ok, I'll go with it. you only need 2 logi for vanguards, and the 10 ship payout curve is a little more excessive than I claimed earlier?

Most VG groups also run one heavy, 11. The loss in payout is more than made up by the increase in site efficiency from the extra DPS.
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#51 - 2014-08-11 22:41:54 UTC
let's not confuse difficult with competitive. you're throwing 11 at them because you're trying to blitz them faster than the other guys.
Sniper Smith
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#52 - 2014-08-11 22:49:46 UTC
Rain6637 wrote:
let's not confuse difficult with competitive. you're throwing 11 at them because you're trying to blitz them faster than the other guys.

Never said they were hard, just said that's how they are done :p

I personally stick to HQ's.. I don't like all the small stuff in VG sites :p
scorchlikeshiswhiskey
Totally Abstract
O X I D E
#53 - 2014-08-11 22:59:59 UTC
I am definitely a fan of fixing the NCN wall as well as giving people a reason to run Scout sites. 3.5M payout sounds pretty good, although I am a little concerned that only paying out 50 LP will just give people a reason to run other sites instead.
HQ Sites pay out 10000 LP per site, Assaults pay out 5000 LP per site, Vanguards pay out 2000 LP per site, and then Scouts pay out a measly 50 LP? Half of the appeal in Incursions is the LP pay out, so by not addressing the meager 50 LP you have only addressed half of the reason they aren't run. I foresee newbies running Scout sites, then they jump into an Incursion community chat and are ridiculed for not knowing that the LP sucks and they effectively make way more than just the ISK increase from running VG's. Then the newbies tell other newbies that Scouts still suck and we're back at the current VG/HQ min/max meta, the only real difference will be that when one or the other of the HQ groups gets their panties twisted up and pops a mom in a tantrum then the next will spawn quicker so they get compete for more attention by popping that one too.
Saul Hyperion
Palmetto Galactic
#54 - 2014-08-11 23:10:51 UTC
Been messing around with the nullsec ones. The jamming is way too much. When you can only bring five people, a single jam can be devastating.
Plaid Rabbit
Enlightened Industries
Goonswarm Federation
#55 - 2014-08-11 23:28:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Plaid Rabbit
Kithran wrote:
Mara Tessidar wrote:
Remove incursions from highsec or make them less profitable than being in nullsec/lowsec/wormhole space.


Considering how much territory the CFC controls they already are. You can run null sec incursions in safety and make more than high sec.

There is one person I know of who has simply been running missions in npc null - a few weeks and he now has 20 billion and 12 plex.

Next strawman please.


I'm the leader of the CFC's Incursion sig, and my alt is a FC in the hisec incursion community, so I can speak on both sides of this subject with plenty of experience.

You're wrong on this, I go run hisec incursions to make isk, they are much more profitable.

Hisec groups are able to (mostly) safely able to field 160B isk fleets to push crazy site times. I can safely field a 4B isk ship, and have near-0% chance of getting blown up. Ask for statistics from one of the hisec incursion groups if you disagree that the risk is somewhere near 0, even including ganks (including things like boosters, logis and blingy incursion hulls).

In hisec, I lead a 100+B isk fleet, after being in the hisec group I'm in for few months. Most the pilots know what they are doing, and with the risk level where it is, it's not unsafe to turn the fleet over to a member that's been around. How many organizations would turn a fleet worth the same as an 80 man capital fleet to someone they've known for less then a year? We also get shut down for about an hour a few times a day as roaming fleets come through dek right now, and Deklin is the safest area for us to run in. We have scouts, and we know things are coming up, so we can dock up and get safe, but it still stops our isk/hr. In hisec, pvp isn't usually a problem.

Also, we're very unpredictable about if we can run incursions or not. We go for 4+ week spans of not able to run incursions because they are all in hostile space. Then about 1/3 the time past that it spawns somewhere where we need clear it to fix our JB network, and also so that our line member don't die to gate. (like the current incursion in S-B1E4)

We've had about 9 workable incursions since May 17th, and that includes 3 incursions that we did that were more "experimental", in much more hostile areas, and we're trying to learn how to get passable site times with cheaper ships.

I can choose to run incursions in hisec, and get ~15 minute HQ sites, or ~5 minute VG sites. If I can't do HQs in 22.5 minutes, or 7.5 min VG sites, it's more profitable to run in hisec. And in hisec, I have no questions about bringing a 5B isk into the fleet. How the shiney groups get their site times down is by bringing a bunch of isk ongrid, and blapping everything.

Pushing site times down is all about bringing a ton of bling in fleet, and being at zero influence. Out in nullsec, it takes 24-48 hours to get the incursion to 0 influence. In hisec, you tend to be at 0 influence within 6-12 hours.

Nullsec incursions need a huge buff. Please have some facts before trying to act intelligent. And also please stay on-topic. NPC Mission running has nothing to do with nullsec incursions. Your statement goes to prove that are other activities in nullsec that are more profitable then incursion running. Also, we've goon-rushed MOA enough that the price of those BPCs has tanked, so the profit of those have tanked out.
Plaid Rabbit
Enlightened Industries
Goonswarm Federation
#56 - 2014-08-11 23:31:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Plaid Rabbit
Rain6637 wrote:
let's not confuse difficult with competitive. you're throwing 11 at them because you're trying to blitz them faster than the other guys.


They run with 11 ongrid for more isk/hr. You're going from 8 dps to 9 DPS, a 12% dps increase, and also pops targets before they burn into range and start orbiting. This shaves a good bit off your site time, for a cost of 10% of your payout. They run 12 ongrid to win contests.

Edit: Sorry for drifting offtopic. Can Nullsec incursions get some love? If you don't believe me that they aren't well balanced, check out how many of them get completed. you can farm the data from http://evemaps.dotlan.net/incursions if you don't believe me that they aren't completed often.
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#57 - 2014-08-11 23:32:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Rain6637
and that figure doesn't include warfare link boosters (which I didn't have, back when I tested Vanguards in triple logi and triple RR BS).

that solution to the missing intermediate difficulty site betwen scout and VG might be the payout curves themselves. payout curve of 7 / 7 for scout and vanguard, don't you think? it should be noted that I have such a composition with 2 CS mindlinked warfare boosters, and 10 combat ships that can handle any subcap comp... I found vanguards are too "micromanage" compared to other PVE (Cap Escalations) but if i wanted someplace to go without risking several caps and subcap support compositions, I might be enticed by vanguards (and possibly scouts even, w-how!) if the payout curve was 7 and 7... just -something- to make the PVE enjoyable without a group of green, blue, and purple faction ships contesting the site.

it wasn't the stress of handling small ships with various names --tank and bail if necessary--it was bling groups coming in and ruining my fun. I hardly had time to yell battle commands to myself before it was over

I'd be nerfing myself here. but honest assessment anyway, because i'm real like that.
WeaponsSt
#58 - 2014-08-12 00:39:44 UTC  |  Edited by: WeaponsSt
After playing around on sisi:

1. Marauders can tank scout sites no problem
2. Mara's have insane jams (drones completely jammed out throughout the site), but don't shoot.
3. More LP; 500 - 700 should be good.

I fully realize these sites are not balanced for one marauder to take on (nor should they be) but something has to be wrong with Maras.


Edit: I just realized that the system penalties are why Maras are difficult to kill.... The jams, however, should be looked at.
Fortorn Lonshanks
Adeptus Incursio
#59 - 2014-08-12 00:39:59 UTC
Plaid Rabbit wrote:
Kithran wrote:
Mara Tessidar wrote:
Remove incursions from highsec or make them less profitable than being in nullsec/lowsec/wormhole space.


Considering how much territory the CFC controls they already are. You can run null sec incursions in safety and make more than high sec.

There is one person I know of who has simply been running missions in npc null - a few weeks and he now has 20 billion and 12 plex.

Next strawman please.


I'm the leader of the CFC's Incursion sig, and my alt is a FC in the hisec incursion community, so I can speak on both sides of this subject with plenty of experience.

You're wrong on this, I go run hisec incursions to make isk, they are much more profitable.

Hisec groups are able to (mostly) safely able to field 160B isk fleets to push crazy site times. I can safely field a 4B isk ship, and have near-0% chance of getting blown up. Ask for statistics from one of the hisec incursion groups if you disagree that the risk is somewhere near 0, even including ganks (including things like boosters, logis and blingy incursion hulls).

In hisec, I lead a 100+B isk fleet, after being in the hisec group I'm in for few months. Most the pilots know what they are doing, and with the risk level where it is, it's not unsafe to turn the fleet over to a member that's been around. How many organizations would turn a fleet worth the same as an 80 man capital fleet to someone they've known for less then a year? We also get shut down for about an hour a few times a day as roaming fleets come through dek right now, and Deklin is the safest area for us to run in. We have scouts, and we know things are coming up, so we can dock up and get safe, but it still stops our isk/hr. In hisec, pvp isn't usually a problem.

Also, we're very unpredictable about if we can run incursions or not. We go for 4+ week spans of not able to run incursions because they are all in hostile space. Then about 1/3 the time past that it spawns somewhere where we need clear it to fix our JB network, and also so that our line member don't die to gate. (like the current incursion in S-B1E4)

We've had about 9 workable incursions since May 17th, and that includes 3 incursions that we did that were more "experimental", in much more hostile areas, and we're trying to learn how to get passable site times with cheaper ships.

I can choose to run incursions in hisec, and get ~15 minute HQ sites, or ~5 minute VG sites. If I can't do HQs in 22.5 minutes, or 7.5 min VG sites, it's more profitable to run in hisec. And in hisec, I have no questions about bringing a 5B isk into the fleet. How the shiney groups get their site times down is by bringing a bunch of isk ongrid, and blapping everything.

Pushing site times down is all about bringing a ton of bling in fleet, and being at zero influence. Out in nullsec, it takes 24-48 hours to get the incursion to 0 influence. In hisec, you tend to be at 0 influence within 6-12 hours.

Nullsec incursions need a huge buff. Please have some facts before trying to act intelligent. And also please stay on-topic. NPC Mission running has nothing to do with nullsec incursions. Your statement goes to prove that are other activities in nullsec that are more profitable then incursion running. Also, we've goon-rushed MOA enough that the price of those BPCs has tanked, so the profit of those have tanked out.



If you are speaking about the profitability of null/low incursions, you could have a point there HOWEVER High sec does not have 10/10 DED sites or the hardest most profitable scan sites/anoms so null sec still beats high sec for isk/hr generation as a whole.

In my previous post I pointed out that the overall isk faucet of null sec is far greater than high sec overall. I also pointed out that given the maximum number of incursions active at any one time, the average site times, number of sites, and max number of pilots per system type the overall number of pilots is FAR less than all of null sec by wide and far margins. When the null sec faucet gets nerfed then i could accept a high sec incursion isk nerf.
Sniper Smith
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#60 - 2014-08-12 00:47:47 UTC
WeaponsSt wrote:
After playing around on sisi:

1. Marauders can tank scout sites no problem
2. Mara's have insane jams (drones completely jammed out throughout the site), but don't shoot.
3. More LP; 500 - 700 should be good.

I fully realize these sites are not balanced for one marauder to take on (nor should they be) but something has to be wrong with Maras.


Edit: I just realized that the system penalties are why Maras are difficult to kill.... The jams, however, should be looked at.

Mara's don't Jam.
Arnons Jam, Mara's are "Boosters" that increase shield resist in all Sansha ships while they are alive.