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Wormhole town hall 16th August 22.00 UTC

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Author
unimatrix0030
Mass Collapse
It Must Be Jelly Cause Jam Don't Shake
#121 - 2014-08-17 11:50:26 UTC
i think fozzie said that the amount of ore minned has been stable.
He didn't say anything about the number of people.

No local in null sec would fix everything!

epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#122 - 2014-08-17 12:05:12 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
unimatrix0030 wrote:
i think fozzie said that the amount of ore minned has been stable.
He didn't say anything about the number of people.


Yes the mining answer was really quite a surprising answer.
It does not seem to match in any way, peoples experience.

I wonder if CCPs metrics include information that none of us have access to so that we are only seeing a small part of the picture.

I really do not know, but whatever the state of a hole we jump into, one almost never sees a miner these days, as for a full mining fleet. More likely to see a herd of unicorns being ridden by sleepers.

It cannot be C1 systems, as it is impractical to close the statics, cannot be C2 or C3 realistically. So where are all these miners?

Anyone any idea?

Because someone must have discovered the answer and is replacing all the other miners that stopped once it became suicidal to mine.

Of course it is also quite possible that CCP never looked beyond the gross metrics and there is a giant bot mining farming operation, in A C4-C4, that is bugged into never getting incoming connections. And that is producing 99% of the ore mined in wormhole space

And they never realised that people have basically just given up mining.

Who Knows?

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#123 - 2014-08-17 12:06:49 UTC
unimatrix0030 wrote:
Strange i remember to hear c1-c4 corps speak up and also don't like it... .


Funny, I remember them saying they didn't care because the MWDing battleships they roll with will still be in jump range anyway.

I guess peple hear what they want to hear.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#124 - 2014-08-17 12:15:34 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Paikis wrote:
unimatrix0030 wrote:
Strange i remember to hear c1-c4 corps speak up and also don't like it... .


Funny, I remember them saying they didn't care because the MWDing battleships they roll with will still be in jump range anyway.

I guess peple hear what they want to hear.


I remember chortles of derision from most of the listeners after that and twenty people trying to object over each other, but that was outside of the moderated section.Big smile
Orcas! You mo*on, Do you expect us to spend all our fking time rolling fking holes you **** was one of the more memorable replies.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

Glasgow Dunlop
The Dark Space Initiative
Scary Wormhole People
#125 - 2014-08-17 12:40:16 UTC
Your going to find a few folk still rolling, but the longer time it takes then more folk will go do something else, so when we do have some fun stuff, its going to be for a lot less of us that are still logged on.

@glasgowdunlop #tweetfleet

TDSIN Director : Join 'TDSIN pub' for more info, Join today!

Glasgow EVE Meets Organiser

HerrBert
T H E R A P Y
#126 - 2014-08-17 12:49:18 UTC  |  Edited by: HerrBert
Warning Bertpost ... Highly incoherant:


I gave it 30 minutes of listening because...it had the sense of Fozzie going for damage control and well I dont want to repeat what Winthorp said and i hate to admit when that sexy guy has a well spoken point. But just to clarify some "stuff"....

First of CCP Fozzie is wierd in PR / Community Management and the Townhall put that forth, as they have an "Idea" for Wormhole but are "not really open" with that, which as a development strategy kinda goes towards the J.J. Abrahms school of "Mystery Boxing", then again how do you put the mystery back into the box after Project Atlas scienced the **** out of wormholes.

Now here comes the problem with Mystery Boxing. CCP did it once on a mildly provokativ scale where they put up a timer and said something special is gonna happen and of course everybody couldnt wait to see 3 Art Rocks on an Island in the Atlantic being revealed. INCREDIBRU... aaanywaaay point here is, if you oversell a "mystery" you have to compensate for the backlash. So my appeal to Fozzie as always .. DONT **** THIS UP!

2 weeks ago we saw CCP taking another "PR-Gamble" called the Anthony Wiener. No CCP Fozzie didnt tweet out pictures of his pocket rocket, but some "controversial" material was found by some "anomynous source" with unconfirmed official statements, that led to #WhenIam40ofTheHole... best thing ever (because the community was ACTIVE). Due to the lack of response about the "actual" mechanics about this feature "the mob grew" to mediocre proportions and led to the "Dramahall Meeting" of yesterday.

So baseline CCP is "okay with Community Management". Or are they?
When I think of Scandal and CCP .. i think of T20, Monocle Gate or CCP Goonswarm (a conspiracy theory regarding changes favoring the GSF, its fun if you are into that kinda stuff), the wormhole thingy ranks more inbetween the mayor overhall of faction warfare and incursion isk changes.

And this brings me to the problem of this entire discussion. Its motherfucking neckbeards and I will keep this as simple as possible. IF YOU WANT TO CHANGE WORMHOLES YOU HAVE TO BE ******* ACTIVE ABOUT IT!

Rather simple fact. Now what is the problem?

YOU! YOU HAVE 1 CSM. HA. 4 Types of Space with maybe 6 in total communities having the power to put forth csms and you GUYS PUT UP 1. Thats a ******* disgrace and i feel bad for corbexx. This gets amplified by the fact that the Wormhole CSM are completly lacking any form "of fellowship" which could support them constantly against CCP. The Wormhole space community gets only active if "status quo" is already about to change (remember scanning changes in odysee)...

Which brings me to the last and more dramatic part... 1 Townhall for Wormholes bringing forth a maximum of 300 attendence... I ve got shot at by more people in Wormhole space...

TLDR
If you really want to have "power about the state of wormholes and be an active part in their development" you need to get better organized and really help your csm(s). Its your choice if you want to do nothing about and claim CCP shouldnt do anything or be active and able to change things towards your prefrence

Now **** off and think about ways to break the new mechanics...and old mechanics and REPORT that ****, well first abuse it and then report it.

My prediction:
3 Weeks after Hyperion everything will be back to humpygrumpy bittervetness ... or WORMHOLE SPACE WILL SEE THE BIGGEST DRAIN EVER (hahahahaaha too funny because .. where do you wanna go? only option would be winning at eve)



Also i would really like for the next townhall to be combined with a wormhole-mechanic-based mass-event on sisi ... if you can assemble 300 people you can test some stuff for the next Bobmess should that ever happen.


I even throw you a bone boys. Remember the Class 6 Wormhole of U N K N O W N that went mental on its static and dialed more numbers then E.T. Home? That thing was kinda brilliant. I m not saying it was "legit" but freaks like that are what puts wormholes always into the interests of eve players. As in Wormhole space is the only space truely #LackingIntellegence and in essence the CORE of BOB needs to be embraced in all its randomness beyond the RNG-RageRolling BULLSHIT!

Community-Challenge: Make Jack Miton sing a Duett with me. http://www.youtube.com/user/HerrBertism Jibbychiggawooooow - CSM 9 Corbexx

epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#127 - 2014-08-17 15:59:24 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Thanks for that interesting post Mr BertShocked

You do raise some interesting posts.
I will comment on a couple and add a couple more.

Firstly Thank you to Corbexx, he is doing a truly amazing Job, and I thank him for that. I agree that it would be a great help both to him and to us that if there was a second CSM to assist in his efforts.

You mention that we should all get together en mass and well do stuff.
Unfortunately, one of the features that is present in wormhole players, is we do not actually like that, we actually value our independence, and whilst we can play well with others, we do like smaller gatherings.

Now regarding the mass spawn mechanic, its actual physical effects and the switch from complex but predefined mechanics that can be discovered with great effort, to enable living in a space that was previously thought impossible, to the less expensive in time and effort method, where luck or chance determines how the application presents, and the result thereof.

We simply do not seem to be able to effect change with discussion, reasoned argument, or any other rational process, and do not have the numbers or coordination to totally disrupt the game to force the management of CCP to actually realise that they are their own worst enemy by following this route.

So when reasoned argument fails, then argument is of no value.

I will not extrapolate from there to pontificate as to what the effects will be for CCP, but if one decides to totally change the formula that has allowed wormhole space to thrive, and for EVE to survive for the time it has, then I really hope the MBAs have saved their wages and cashed in their share options if they have them.

As for the employees and customers, well sorry, just collateral damage.

But who knows, maybe players will relish the excitement of blowing up when they have no opportunity to control their fate?

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

Seraph Essael
Anomalous Existence
Spatial Instability
#128 - 2014-08-17 17:00:30 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
It cannot be C1 systems, as it is impractical to close the statics, cannot be C2 or C3 realistically. So where are all these miners?

Anyone any idea?

You would be suprised how many miners you can find mining in open C1 holes. Everytime I'm in a C1 pretty much it's either empty or has miners in it...

But you are correct in never seeing massive mining fleets.

Quoted from Doc Fury: "Concerned citizens: Doc seldom plays EVE on the weekends during spring and summer, so you will always be on your own for a couple days a week. Doc spends that time collecting kittens for the on-going sacrifices, engaging in reckless outdoor activities, and speaking in the 3rd person."

AssassinationsdoneWrong
Deep Core Mining Inc.
#129 - 2014-08-17 18:58:01 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
unimatrix0030 wrote:
i think fozzie said that the amount of ore minned has been stable.
He didn't say anything about the number of people.


Yes the mining answer was really quite a surprising answer.
It does not seem to match in any way, peoples experience.

I wonder if CCPs metrics include information that none of us have access to so that we are only seeing a small part of the picture.

I really do not know, but whatever the state of a hole we jump into, one almost never sees a miner these days, as for a full mining fleet. More likely to see a herd of unicorns being ridden by sleepers.

It cannot be C1 systems, as it is impractical to close the statics, cannot be C2 or C3 realistically. So where are all these miners?

Anyone any idea?

Because someone must have discovered the answer and is replacing all the other miners that stopped once it became suicidal to mine.

Of course it is also quite possible that CCP never looked beyond the gross metrics and there is a giant bot mining farming operation, in A C4-C4, that is bugged into never getting incoming connections. And that is producing 99% of the ore mined in wormhole space

And they never realised that people have basically just given up mining.

Who Knows?


Try looking up the WH classes instead of down.
It's where the best ore sites and thus the multiboxing miners are.

The Nexus 7's

What we fall short of in numbers we more than make up for in stupidity

Adarnof
Super Secret Spaceship Syndicate
#130 - 2014-08-17 20:23:27 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
unimatrix0030 wrote:
i think fozzie said that the amount of ore minned has been stable.
He didn't say anything about the number of people.


Yes the mining answer was really quite a surprising answer.
It does not seem to match in any way, peoples experience.


People seem to forget that at the same time ore sites became anomalies, we got instant free warning of a new incoming. Which made things incredibly safer for the active miner.

This is the same kind of confused conclusion we'll see post-Hyperion. When you throw a pile of changes in the blender and suddenly compare before/after metrics, you have absolutely no idea what the true causes were. I'm glad mining didn't suffer, but someone saying "they didn't decrease because of becoming anomalies" is an outright lie. So while I appreciated that example from Fozzie at the townhall, it emphasizes just how poorly CCP analyzes their own data.
Aquila Sagitta
Blue-Fire
Great Blue Balls of Fire
#131 - 2014-08-17 23:47:21 UTC
Is there a recording of this somewhere??
Kennesaw Breach
Z3R0 Return Mining Inc.
Illusion of Solitude
#132 - 2014-08-18 01:50:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Kennesaw Breach
A statement and a question that I couldn't get in through all the other people participating:

Statement: I don't think the mass/distance changes are good, but they're not as bad as the ragers seem to think. The changes will make both defensive and aggressive rolling less appealing due to the increased risk with what was already a risky activity. It will further emphasize the need for good scouting, and it will make it even harder to catch those scouts, since the distance from the hole appears to be outside of decloak range at all times now. All that said, IT IS NOT THE END OF ROLLING HOLES. It's a bad change, but it's not game-wrecking (like permanent holes, stargates in holes, local in holes, ice mining in holes or no more POSes in holes would be). So I'll keep playing and see what comes of it.

Question: The rorqual is, at this point, useless. It used to be the only viable method of making mining profitable in holes, since hauling uncompressed ore out was time inefficient and refining in the hole was return-inefficient, but now we can compress instantly with a pos module. The clone vats don't work in wormholes (and arguably aren't reliable anywhere else in kspace). The boosting is okay, I guess, but that's a lot of fuel to burn and a LOT of skillpoints to invest, not to mention the time and isk it takes to build the freaking thing in the hole to use it. So my question is: Is there a plan to make rorquals actually worth having and flying again? Or should we just self destruct the thing and buy an archon with the insurance?
O'nira
Perkone
Caldari State
#133 - 2014-08-18 02:31:41 UTC  |  Edited by: O'nira
Kennesaw Breach wrote:
A statement and a question that I couldn't get in through all the other people participating:

Statement: I don't think the mass/distance changes are good, but they're not as bad as the ragers seem to think. The changes will make both defensive and aggressive rolling less appealing due to the increased risk with what was already a risky activity. It will further emphasize the need for good scouting, and it will make it even harder to catch those scouts, since the distance from the hole appears to be outside of decloak range at all times now. All that said, IT IS NOT THE END OF ROLLING HOLES. It's a bad change, but it's not game-wrecking (like permanent holes, stargates in holes, local in holes, ice mining in holes or no more POSes in holes would be). So I'll keep playing and see what comes of it.

Question: The rorqual is, at this point, useless. It used to be the only viable method of making mining profitable in holes, since hauling uncompressed ore out was time inefficient and refining in the hole was return-inefficient, but now we can compress instantly with a pos module. The clone vats don't work in wormholes (and arguably aren't reliable anywhere else in kspace). The boosting is okay, I guess, but that's a lot of fuel to burn and a LOT of skillpoints to invest, not to mention the time and isk it takes to build the freaking thing in the hole to use it. So my question is: Is there a plan to make rorquals actually worth having and flying again? Or should we just self destruct the thing and buy an archon with the insurance?



Corp A rolls into Corp B, Corp B has another static that they will play with and just keep a scout in Corp A wh and a cloaky bubbler /a cloaky interceptor on their side. Corp A has to either be able to take Corp B in a fight or log off, Corp B is much smaller so they log off, people in corp B get bored of not doing **** after a few times off rolling into a bigger Corp and logging off because they can't do **** about it so they decide to do something else and either leave the game or the corp and join a bigger corp.

Of course ragerolling also got nerfed so big corps are gonna have a "harder" time finding content for their big numbers, maybe this will counterbalance the need to have a big corp and they will grow smaller again but lets be honest smaller corps also need to roll a lot so its not really gonna do ****, that's ignoring the fact that ragerolling is just gonna take 2 more people(rapier+ceptor) to roll with and 1-2min(cap warping to safe made by ceptor while being webbed by loki) more per hole.

and it also seems like they have no real reason for this change other than to change **** up and see what happens wich is just so freaking dumb, the reason because w-space is stagnating is so freaking ridiculous as well, maybe try doing something similar to nullsec then(the space where everyone agrees is stagnating and not the space that i don't think anyone says is stagnating)

i'm gonna keep playing to and hope its not as bad as i am expecting it to be but i think it will be.
StudleyManiac
Z3R0 Return Mining Inc.
Illusion of Solitude
#134 - 2014-08-18 03:22:12 UTC
The thing that gets me is the developers blogs are represented as this is a change we are gonna make; lets discuss.
But it is really this is what we are going to do and if you don't like it here is your bag of dicks.

Look at loot spew... almost the same amount of negative feedback but implemented and later thanks be to Bob reversed.

CCP only looks upon us as a community of players instead of a community of paying customers.

epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#135 - 2014-08-18 09:58:19 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
StudleyManiac wrote:
The thing that gets me is the developers blogs are represented as this is a change we are gonna make; lets discuss.
But it is really this is what we are going to do and if you don't like it here is your bag of dicks.

Look at loot spew... almost the same amount of negative feedback but implemented and later thanks be to Bob reversed.

CCP only looks upon us as a community of players instead of a community of paying customers.



Hi Studley!Big smile

At least you could choose to do the loot spew, wait, not if you did exploration.
So the same as this really, you have to put up with this if you want to live in wormhole space.

It will probably end up the same way then, pity it is not so easy to rebuild your life in wormhole space after leaving.

Will there be anyone left to give a damn by that time? Seems they wish to destroy any ability for the players to suspend disbelief that is needed to play a game, so maybe they are just ensuring that anyone who leaves, grows up to the point, they will never play any other game.

Thats a win isn't it?

Funny, I thought CCP was a business, and not an educational authority.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#136 - 2014-08-18 10:01:16 UTC
AssassinationsdoneWrong wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
unimatrix0030 wrote:
i think fozzie said that the amount of ore minned has been stable.
He didn't say anything about the number of people.


Yes the mining answer was really quite a surprising answer.
It does not seem to match in any way, peoples experience.

I wonder if CCPs metrics include information that none of us have access to so that we are only seeing a small part of the picture.

I really do not know, but whatever the state of a hole we jump into, one almost never sees a miner these days, as for a full mining fleet. More likely to see a herd of unicorns being ridden by sleepers.

It cannot be C1 systems, as it is impractical to close the statics, cannot be C2 or C3 realistically. So where are all these miners?

Anyone any idea?

Because someone must have discovered the answer and is replacing all the other miners that stopped once it became suicidal to mine.

Of course it is also quite possible that CCP never looked beyond the gross metrics and there is a giant bot mining farming operation, in A C4-C4, that is bugged into never getting incoming connections. And that is producing 99% of the ore mined in wormhole space

And they never realised that people have basically just given up mining.

Who Knows?


Try looking up the WH classes instead of down.
It's where the best ore sites and thus the multiboxing miners are.


Thanks for that, very interesting, and good job.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#137 - 2014-08-18 10:07:07 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Kennesaw Breach wrote:
A statement and a question that I couldn't get in through all the other people participating:

Statement: I don't think the mass/distance changes are good, but they're not as bad as the ragers seem to think. The changes will make both defensive and aggressive rolling less appealing due to the increased risk with what was already a risky activity. It will further emphasize the need for good scouting, and it will make it even harder to catch those scouts, since the distance from the hole appears to be outside of decloak range at all times now. All that said, IT IS NOT THE END OF ROLLING HOLES. It's a bad change, but it's not game-wrecking (like permanent holes, stargates in holes, local in holes, ice mining in holes or no more POSes in holes would be). So I'll keep playing and see what comes of it.

Question: The rorqual is, at this point, useless. It used to be the only viable method of making mining profitable in holes, since hauling uncompressed ore out was time inefficient and refining in the hole was return-inefficient, but now we can compress instantly with a pos module. The clone vats don't work in wormholes (and arguably aren't reliable anywhere else in kspace). The boosting is okay, I guess, but that's a lot of fuel to burn and a LOT of skillpoints to invest, not to mention the time and isk it takes to build the freaking thing in the hole to use it. So my question is: Is there a plan to make rorquals actually worth having and flying again? Or should we just self destruct the thing and buy an archon with the insurance?


Just wait for the change, and jump it through a wormhole a couple of times.
It is after all just a matter of luck as to whether it lands safely or in the middle of a pile of crap.
Nothing you can do to change that, just roll the dice.

But may as well self destruct it, it may not be any more or less fun, but it will be less frustrating.
Just don't do either with the archon.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

Bronya Boga
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#138 - 2014-08-18 13:15:42 UTC
Aquila Sagitta wrote:
Is there a recording of this somewhere??


Check dtp site
Meytal
Doomheim
#139 - 2014-08-18 19:02:02 UTC
Speaking of mining, in our home C2 we will occasionally have people mining in bait Procurers, hoping to catch stupid people. It has resulted in multiple kills. We have others who claim to be baiting, though a Retriever or Covetor isn't exactly good bait *cough* (Those instances resulted in multiple losses)

Before Odyssey, this generally did not happen, and our mining sites generally disappeared after a few days with nary a mining vessel in sight.

I would hypothesize that some of the slack from real mining ops has been taken up by bait mining ops. And there is also the point that was raised about making things safer than before with instant and free intel.