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Disallowing PLEX on PUBLIC contract
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Antillie Sa'Kan
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#61 - 2014-08-11 15:15:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Antillie Sa'Kan
Ynot Eyob wrote:
It has a real-world value when you can use it to pay for a service / game you enjoy and else cannot afford.

Not true.

Since PLEX cannot be (legitimately) traded for anything with RL value such as money, it has no RL value itself. The fact that the money to PLEX conversion process is a one way only transaction prevents PLEX from being money and from being valuable in RL terms. The value that is in the money stays with the money when a PLEX is bought (and goes to CCP). It does not somehow transfer to the PLEX.

If I buy a house I loose the value that was in the money I paid for it and gain the value that is in the house itself. However the house only has value because I can sell it and get money in return. This is not true for PLEX, you cannot sell it and get your money back. Thus, PLEX does not have any value.

If anything, PLEX is a coupon that you paid money for and can't return. Kind of like those coupon books that people try and sell now and then claiming that the book has "over $1000 worth of coupons". Even if that claim is true it doesn't make the coupon book worth $1000 because nobody in their right mind would pay $1000 for one.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#62 - 2014-08-11 15:28:37 UTC
If you could not spam Jita or anywhere else for that matter all day, this would not even look like it might be a problem. Can't we just fix the root issue instead of singling every BS push forward?
Antillie Sa'Kan
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#63 - 2014-08-11 16:03:34 UTC
Or better yet, just close local when in a trade hub. Problem solved.
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#64 - 2014-08-11 16:28:02 UTC
Making it where you can't scam with PLEX isn't going to stop anyone from losing to scams.

PLEX scam

Step 1: Three hour old player wants a Charon so he buys PLEX with RL money.

Step 2: Player sees contract in Jita local offering to buy his PLEX. He thinks it says 750 million ISK but actually says 750 thousand ISK

Step 3: Player is in tears because he can't afford his new ship with 750 thousand ISK

Step 4: Player rages in local because he wasted a PLEX.



Non PLEX scam

Step 1: Three hour old player wants a Charon so he buys PLEX with RL money.

Step 2: Player sells PLEX on market for 750 million.

Step 3: Player sees a cool contract offering him a Charon for 750 million. He thinks wow that's so cheap but doesn't actually read the contract where it states he's getting Carbon

Step 3: Player is in tears because he realized he was scammed and is the proud owner of one unit of Carbon.

Step 4: Player rages in local because he wasted a PLEX.
Antillie Sa'Kan
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#65 - 2014-08-11 16:31:05 UTC
IIshira wrote:
Making it where you can't scam with PLEX isn't going to stop anyone from losing to scams.

PLEX scam

Step 1: Three hour old player wants a Charon so he buys PLEX with RL money.

Step 2: Player sees contract in Jita local offering to buy his PLEX. He thinks it says 750 million ISK but actually says 750 thousand ISK

Step 3: Player is in tears because he can't afford his new ship with 750 thousand ISK

Step 4: Player rages in local because he wasted a PLEX.



Non PLEX scam

Step 1: Three hour old player wants a Charon so he buys PLEX with RL money.

Step 2: Player sells PLEX on market for 750 million.

Step 3: Player sees a cool contract offering him a Charon for 750 million. He thinks wow that's so cheap but doesn't actually read the contract where it states he's getting Carbon

Step 3: Player is in tears because he realized he was scammed and is the proud owner of one unit of Carbon.

Step 4: Player rages in local because he wasted a PLEX.

This.

You can't patch stupid.
Ynot Eyob
Nisroc Angels
The Obsidian Front - Reborn
#66 - 2014-08-11 18:32:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Ynot Eyob
Antillie Sa'Kan wrote:
Ynot Eyob wrote:
It has a real-world value when you can use it to pay for a service / game you enjoy and else cannot afford.

Not true.

Since PLEX cannot be (legitimately) traded for anything with RL value such as money, it has no RL value itself. The fact that the money to PLEX conversion process is a one way only transaction prevents PLEX from being money and from being valuable in RL terms. The value that is in the money stays with the money when a PLEX is bought (and goes to CCP). It does not somehow transfer to the PLEX.

If I buy a house I loose the value that was in the money I paid for it and gain the value that is in the house itself. However the house only has value because I can sell it and get money in return. This is not true for PLEX, you cannot sell it and get your money back. Thus, PLEX does not have any value.

If anything, PLEX is a coupon that you paid money for and can't return. Kind of like those coupon books that people try and sell now and then claiming that the book has "over $1000 worth of coupons". Even if that claim is true it doesn't make the coupon book worth $1000 because nobody in their right mind would pay $1000 for one.


Real-World Value as in human value not Money. Real-world value as if you can play with your friends or not the day after

Nisroc - Angel of Freedom Nisroc is known as "The Great Eagle".
Ynot Eyob
Nisroc Angels
The Obsidian Front - Reborn
#67 - 2014-08-11 18:33:55 UTC
IIshira wrote:
Making it where you can't scam with PLEX isn't going to stop anyone from losing to scams.

PLEX scam

Step 1: Three hour old player wants a Charon so he buys PLEX with RL money.

Step 2: Player sees contract in Jita local offering to buy his PLEX. He thinks it says 750 million ISK but actually says 750 thousand ISK

Step 3: Player is in tears because he can't afford his new ship with 750 thousand ISK

Step 4: Player rages in local because he wasted a PLEX.



Non PLEX scam

Step 1: Three hour old player wants a Charon so he buys PLEX with RL money.

Step 2: Player sells PLEX on market for 750 million.

Step 3: Player sees a cool contract offering him a Charon for 750 million. He thinks wow that's so cheap but doesn't actually read the contract where it states he's getting Carbon

Step 3: Player is in tears because he realized he was scammed and is the proud owner of one unit of Carbon.

Step 4: Player rages in local because he wasted a PLEX.


I have no issues with scam like this, as the day after he can log into the game, and carry on playing, here is the differents

Nisroc - Angel of Freedom Nisroc is known as "The Great Eagle".
Ynot Eyob
Nisroc Angels
The Obsidian Front - Reborn
#68 - 2014-08-11 18:38:54 UTC
Niko Lorenzio wrote:
Think of the scammers as the wolves of EVE. Like the wolves they keep the game healthy and interesting.
Those who fall for scams like this AND rage quit over it, don't belong in New Eden in the first place. They're sick animals which fall behind and get eaten by wolves, leaving the rest of the herd healthier and stronger.


I agree on every word here, and why im not pointing out scams over all, but a scam which can have RL influince if you can actually log in the next day and prepare a revenge for your lose or not.

Nisroc - Angel of Freedom Nisroc is known as "The Great Eagle".
Owen Levanth
Sagittarius Unlimited Exploration
#69 - 2014-08-11 20:21:18 UTC
I should point out if I had students stupid enough to fall for a PLEX-scam, I would seriously consider expelling them from my university.

Personally, I think the OP tries to manipulate us using emotions: "Oh those poor students, if we won't stop scamming them, they may commit suicide! Or worse, they may stop playing!"

Sorry, but with scams so obvious and stupid and involving digital in-game items, the only emotion I can feel is pity.

OP, did you consider it may be better for those poor students to stop playing Eve and to concentrate on their studies instead? If what you say is true, they don't seem to be very smart and could need all the learning they can do.
Antillie Sa'Kan
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#70 - 2014-08-11 20:21:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Antillie Sa'Kan
Ynot Eyob wrote:
Real-World Value as in human value not Money. Real-world value as if you can play with your friends or not the day after

I'm sorry but no. Value is the ability to exchange something for something else. In modern society we use money as a go between to normalize the value of all goods and services. If you cannot exchange something for money it is by definition not valuable in an economic sense. PLEX is at best a coupon. And like all coupons it is not inherently worth anything on its own.

If you do something stupid and can't hang out with your friends the next day its no different than if you drank too much the night before and don't feel like hanging out the next day. You have nobody to blame but yourself.

And as I said before, if $15 is a lot of money to you then you have larger issues in your life than playing an MMO with your friends.

Its really no different than needing to eat out for lunch because you because you slept in and didn't have time to pack a lunch before work or suddenly needing to buy gas (or a bus ticket) to get across town to run an unexpected errand. These sort of things don't happen very often but they do happen. And if your budget is so tight that something so minor can throw it into total disarray then you probably shouldn't be playing an MMO that requires a certain level of financial commitment. Even if that commitment is simply a willingness to spend $15 once in a while if you happen to do something stupid.
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#71 - 2014-08-11 21:39:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Alvatore DiMarco
Ynot Eyob wrote:
Niko Lorenzio wrote:
Think of the scammers as the wolves of EVE. Like the wolves they keep the game healthy and interesting.
Those who fall for scams like this AND rage quit over it, don't belong in New Eden in the first place. They're sick animals which fall behind and get eaten by wolves, leaving the rest of the herd healthier and stronger.


I agree on every word here, and why im not pointing out scams over all, but a scam which can have RL influince if you can actually log in the next day and prepare a revenge for your lose or not.


Being able to log in or not is in no way a "real-world influence". If you think it is, you may need to step back and re-evaluate your definitions of "fantasy" and "reality" as well as your ability to distinguish between the two.

Additionally, if you are so completely strapped for cash - both IRL and ingame - that a single PLEX purchase drains your entire wallet and leaves you with nothing, resulting in a suspended account because you also cannot pay the subscription fee with actual money, perhaps you have more important things you should be doing with your time than playing EVE. It's harsh and unpopular to say, but it's also true.

EDIT: I just noticed that Antillie Sa'Kan and I both ended our post basically the same way. I guarantee neither of us is a forum alt of the other.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#72 - 2014-08-11 21:43:25 UTC
Ynot Eyob wrote:

I agree on every word here, and why im not pointing out scams over all, but a scam which can have RL influince if you can actually log in the next day and prepare a revenge for your lose or not.


Nothing about that is anything but their own fault.

It would make zero difference if they had gotten scammed out of money they intended to use to buy a plex, or a plex itself.

The fact that PLEX can be sold via public contract has absolutely nothing to do with any of this.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Pelorios
Absolute Order XVI
Absolute Honor
#73 - 2014-08-12 07:58:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Pelorios
All this is fine. People that can, may spend $60/month buying a plex/week. Its not a lot of RL money for some. There is plenty you can do in this game when you can spend close to a billion isk every week.


The problem is certain design faults or omissions related to game mechanics. Online gaming is nothing new anymore. Certain design concepts and basic UI functionality is starting to become standard. And how you buy and treat digital items, whether its to buy vanity stuff or turn it into game currency should also a basic standard design and functionality.

Because it works. Its been tried a million times and this is what works for 6 bil people on this planet.

For example, you wouldn't choose to assign ALT-Click to get a context-menu on an item, cause everyone uses the RMB, and (almost) all mice have 2 buttons.

Same with how you present a contract.

First off, to have to scroll down to see what you pay or what you get is bad design. You want this sh**t side-by-side.

I am looking at one right now it has the phrase 'You Will Get' twice and 'You Will Pay' once. Wtf is that?

And finaly these are colored...'you will get' is green and 'you will pay' red. Green and red are used for profit and loss. What thsi shj**t is alluding to is that 'what you get' is always profit or something and vice-versa for what you pay. You just won the ret***d design award of the week!

Get your ignorant design skills and go reinvent the wheel somewhere else..

Failing that ...again (*sigh*)... I agree with OP

PS: in case some people didn't catch the last point, profit and loss applies to whole transactions not their parts.
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#74 - 2014-08-12 17:06:46 UTC  |  Edited by: IIshira
Pelorios wrote:
All this is fine. People that can, may spend $60/month buying a plex/week. Its not a lot of RL money for some. There is plenty you can do in this game when you can spend close to a billion isk every week.


The problem is certain design faults or omissions related to game mechanics. Online gaming is nothing new anymore. Certain design concepts and basic UI functionality is starting to become standard. And how you buy and treat digital items, whether its to buy vanity stuff or turn it into game currency should also a basic standard design and functionality.

Because it works. Its been tried a million times and this is what works for 6 bil people on this planet.

For example, you wouldn't choose to assign ALT-Click to get a context-menu on an item, cause everyone uses the RMB, and (almost) all mice have 2 buttons.

Same with how you present a contract.

First off, to have to scroll down to see what you pay or what you get is bad design. You want this sh**t side-by-side.

I am looking at one right now it has the phrase 'You Will Get' twice and 'You Will Pay' once. Wtf is that?

And finaly these are colored...'you will get' is green and 'you will pay' red. Green and red are used for profit and loss. What thsi shj**t is alluding to is that 'what you get' is always profit or something and vice-versa for what you pay. You just won the ret***d design award of the week!

Get your ignorant design skills and go reinvent the wheel somewhere else..

Failing that ...again (*sigh*)... I agree with OP

PS: in case some people didn't catch the last point, profit and loss applies to whole transactions not their parts.


Scroll down to see what you pay? Are you playing Eve on a tablet? I only have a 17" monitor and there is no scrolling in a PLEX contract.


I still don't see how you get confused with "You Will Get" and "You Will Pay"

Lets break this down

"You": This is the person who's reading the contract. In your case "You" would be "Pelorios"

"Will": This means something is about to happen. In the case of Eve contracts that is one of two things "get" or "pay"

"Get": This means "to gain possession of". If it says you will get one PLEX that means one will be in your hanger

"Pay": This means to give. If it says you will pay one PLEX that means you will have to give them one PLEX


They have dumbed down contracts to the kindergarten reading level. I'll admit the design isn't pretty but it's very clear as to what the result of the contract will be.


If you are having trouble understanding them perhaps it's because English isn't your first language. If you hit ESC on your keyboard look under the "Language" tab. There is only a few choices but this might help if one of those is your native language.

If English is your native language perhaps consider taking some English reading comprehension classes. You might even be able to find something online for free.
w3ak3stl1nk
Hedion University
#75 - 2014-08-24 01:49:07 UTC
Maybe it needs more pictures or charts drawn in crayons?

Is that my two cents or yours?
Ynot Eyob
Nisroc Angels
The Obsidian Front - Reborn
#76 - 2014-08-24 11:10:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Ynot Eyob
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-7aKGaGONOGk/U7m1EDTULDI/AAAAAAAABRs/wHcvWtbOdbE/s1600/Retribution+to+Kronos.png

This is my only concern, all im saying is scam like this just help the graph drop

You can read Nozy's full blog here, which involved the graph abov.

http://nosygamer.blogspot.dk/2014/07/graphing-eve-online-history-from.html

Nisroc - Angel of Freedom Nisroc is known as "The Great Eagle".
Minty Aroma
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#77 - 2014-08-24 11:27:15 UTC
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
Ynot Eyob wrote:

Im full of *** stars, because i came up with a suggestion which over time have shown me people, mainly students, are forced to stop playing, because they might not have been so bright as it seems everyone is, and hooked on a scam, which the day after will close their account due unpaid subs.


I personal see PLEX as real money, and the reson came this year at FAN fest where you could use PLEX to more or less buy hotel, beers ect. beside pay to play the game.


Nobody cares if a student has to stop playing EVE because they were in too much of a rush to read the blasted contract. Nobody cares if a disabled veteran has to stop playing EVE because they let themselves be scammed in Jita. It's the same thing everyone has to deal with. We all learned about scams and how to spot them - these people you want our hearts to bleed for are equally capable of understanding and learning about scams as we are.

There's no reason for special treatment just because some people are unwilling to use that gelatinous thing inside their skull.

Moving on, it doesn't matter what you see PLEX as. It is not real money. You paid your real money for a digital item. The real money is gone. It's no longer part of the equation.

Oh, but you can buy stuff with it, so it must be real money, right? Wrong. CCP is allowing you to use a digital item to pay for real-world goods and services. It's a voucher. A coupon. Do coupons have real-world value? No. At least here, they're worth 1/100th of 100th of a dollar. Effectively nothing.

You're not actually paying for anything with that PLEX. You're giving that digital item to CCP who is then issuing you credit for those goods and services. All the real money is paid by CCP. Buying beer? CCP pays for the beer. Buying tickets? CCP pays for the tickets. Paying for a hotel? CCP pays the hotel. You give them a PLEX and in exchange they issue funds on your behalf to the vendor whose goods and/or services you're consuming.

PLEX is not real money. It's even legally defined as not being real money. The real money exits the equation when you exchange it for the digital item called PLEX which has no real-world value.

For godsakes, you're a human aren't you? Use your higher brain functions. This is all so easy to understand if you stop and actually think.



People do care though. If your corpmates / playbuddies have to stop playing because of a scenario like this, then obviously you'll care. Don't you think this thread would not exist if people didn't care? Maybe you should stop and actually think.
Talrath
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#78 - 2014-08-24 11:38:36 UTC
Natural selection.
admiral root
Red Galaxy
#79 - 2014-08-24 17:07:22 UTC
Talrath wrote:
Natural selection.


Was a terrible game so I didn't bother buying the sequel.

No, your rights end in optimal+2*falloff
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#80 - 2014-08-24 21:13:09 UTC
No.

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