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[Hyperion Feedback Thread] K162 Signatures Appearing on First Jump

First post
Author
Anize Oramara
The Arch Dashing Dashers
#161 - 2014-08-08 09:38:01 UTC
unimatrix0030 wrote:
This change is good it restores balance between hunter and prey.
I would rather have the situation before oddesey but i take this.
The timers for the spawn of the k162 as sugested will be quite important though.
To less they prey will be hurt to much, to high and pve will be to easy.
My best geuss is between 1-4 hours.

anything past 5 minutes wont make a difference. if you are rage rolling and hunting farmers why on earth would you wait even 1minute on the hole? you rage roll, fleet warp your entire fleet including caps on to the hole and you have Invulnerability for however long this 'timer' is set. what you are suggesting is 1 to 4 hours of Invulnerability from the guys on the other side. and once you do jump your scouts through its a moot point anyways and the guys on the other side still needs to scan down and form up / send out pings for the new sig so you are STILL safe.

looking at the suggestions it looks almost like the pvp guys are more risk averse than the farmers hahaha!

actually with a zero min timer the pvp guys already have a HUGE advantage as if they fleet warp with caps they can close the hole before the guys on the other side have even SCANNED DOWN THE SIG.

holy risk averse pvp batman. no wonder they want to implement the mass based rolling thingy. they just gave 100% safe pvp to the people that need it the least.

never knew you guys were such cowards hahaha!

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3

Samsara Nolte
Untethered
Almost Competent
#162 - 2014-08-08 11:20:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Samsara Nolte
Constans Macob wrote:
Why is this change being made? When scouting an unstable wormhole you warp to it, bookmark it while approaching and then jump. In a covert ops frig the reduced warning for the hunted parties from this change is a matter of seconds.

If the scouts are warping to the unstable wormhole, bookmarking it and then continuing to scout the current system rather than jumping through they're doing it wrong. They should bookmark the multiple unstable wormhole sigs (named differently so that nobody uses that bookmark for travel) then after scanning all sigs they should warp to the sig bookmark, remove the bookmark while in warp, upon landing bookmark the wormhole and jump through.

I don't see why this change is needed. Don't compensate for bad scouts with game mechanic changes.


I´m with this one entirely.

What bugged me since fozzie posted the timer idea was this.
We all know that k-space residents don´t jump into w-space quite often - the only thing they do is in most cases look for k-space to k-space connections - so under the current mechanic this looking waht hole it is would have triggered the K162 in w-space - disrupting the activities in said w-space system until it is verified what kind of hole it is and if not needed is closed - which was in most cases given the standard adverse behavoir towards wh´s most k-space residents have in nearly complete safety.
but if this change goes through -
i see the following scenario happen on a regularly basis.
k-space resident in a cloaked ship with a fitted cyno warps to wh´s knowing he doesn´t have to jump through because after a certain timer the K162 will be created without him having to expose himself to risk of dying in a potentially already opened connection since he is gonna be ejected outside jump distance on the w side - and it might be possible the w-residents are there waiting for him -
so the k-space guy waits - he doesn´t need to wait long (the timer it takes to trigger the K162 plus 1-2 minutes) - since w-space residentes when online are a vigilant bunch ... when nothing happens he starts searching for other holes ...
but if something happens je just has to wait till the w-space residents start to close the hole, meanwhile he´s waiting with the blob from his cyno waiting for them.

Could you please point out to me how this is a fair mecanic ... the k-space resident has at no point needed to put his self in danger but was able to disrupt the w- activities and is even forcing them to field assets pretty much on his silver, and properly prepared, plate ... where is the equalizier the advantage we w-space residents get against the k-space residents....

edit some spelling mistakes
Samsara Nolte
Untethered
Almost Competent
#163 - 2014-08-08 11:37:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Samsara Nolte
Viscis Breeze wrote:
As a smallish C5 corporation trying to grow this change is quite difficult for us to deal with. We actively dscan/probe during site operations and generally (with the current system) if a competent group rolls into us we can be tackled before exiting siege. With this change, despite being actively looking for new signatures, we are given even less response time to deal with the impending threat.

On the flip side of this, for people running sites who are not locked in siege, its all too easy to just POS back up when a new signature appears.

I would advocate a return to the old system (as I'm sure quite a few others would support) but with a slight tweak to allow for signatures appearing in the scanner:

1. New K162 signatures appear when someone warps to the wormhole (as it currently does).
2. The delay before these appear is down to the pilot:
2a. If the pilot has probes launched and is scanning, the signature is picked up on the next cycle end.
2b. If the pilot is simply using the overlay with no probes, the signature is automatically detected after about a minute.

I believe this both rewards vigilance but at the same time isn't a significant nerf or buff.


I´m on the same page -
for the vigilant lower class resident this isn´t gonna change much - since form C1-C3 most rats don´t scramble and even with the added the time a scout might have to find you - you are warped out before he´s next to you.

But for the higher class holes this changes everthing - before when someone has rolled into you they had a time frame from about 0-5 minutes given the time which remained on the siege cycles to find and tackle you which meant often they had to engage you (hero tackle) before their whole fleet was ready to go because some of them were still inside of the warp to the hole ... so you had as the attackee a slim chance of killing the hero tackle of end be on your way ... now what´s gonna happen is this - the whole enemy fleet will be sitting at null from the wh before their scouts jump through - they will again have 0-5 Minutes to find you but will jump you not with a single heavy interdictor waiting for reinforcments but with their whole fleet ....
even with this weakend proposal of the old one - the favour is put heavily on the attackers side, because they are prepared for this, their fleet is ... whereas the defender is not and can´t be ... they in most cases won´t even be able to react properly because what they lack is intel ... they only saw the hole a few moments before a fleet is on the way to them ... they can´t know what is still waiting for them ... so to be able to make an judgment either to reship regroup and figth or the withdraw they need to scan the wh ... jump a scout through and see fort hemselves ...
a activity which is in the range of the time a cap needs to warp to a hole ... so in my opinion the current state is by far better equalized - with a slight favour to the attackers they still pretty much keep their element of suprise .... because the heavy hitters weren´t already in the first wave what will happen when this cahnge goes live ... so after you have your intel you can return to actually safe somehting and not to take revenge for your, at this point, already dead friends ...

edit some spelling mistakes
Adrienn Tiwake
Aideron Robotics
#164 - 2014-08-08 14:03:25 UTC
Yeah, please don't add a timer for a fresh unscanned wormhole static. With all the other lower mass wormholes spawning it will only make things that much more difficult.
Alundil
Rolled Out
#165 - 2014-08-08 14:11:50 UTC
Anize Oramara wrote:
unimatrix0030 wrote:
This change is good it restores balance between hunter and prey.
I would rather have the situation before oddesey but i take this.
The timers for the spawn of the k162 as sugested will be quite important though.
To less they prey will be hurt to much, to high and pve will be to easy.
My best geuss is between 1-4 hours.

anything past 5 minutes wont make a difference. if you are rage rolling and hunting farmers why on earth would you wait even 1minute on the hole? you rage roll, fleet warp your entire fleet including caps on to the hole and you have Invulnerability for however long this 'timer' is set. what you are suggesting is 1 to 4 hours of Invulnerability from the guys on the other side. and once you do jump your scouts through its a moot point anyways and the guys on the other side still needs to scan down and form up / send out pings for the new sig so you are STILL safe.

looking at the suggestions it looks almost like the pvp guys are more risk averse than the farmers hahaha!

actually with a zero min timer the pvp guys already have a HUGE advantage as if they fleet warp with caps they can close the hole before the guys on the other side have even SCANNED DOWN THE SIG.

holy risk averse pvp batman. no wonder they want to implement the mass based rolling thingy. they just gave 100% safe pvp to the people that need it the least.

never knew you guys were such cowards hahaha!

I'm pretty sure you misunderstand the change as proposed as it relates to hole rolling (ie - this really doesn't relate to hole rolling). I'm equally certain that you misunderstand the change as proposed as it relates to PvP (ie - this really doesn't relate to PvP directly).
Furthermore - the PvP groups are the ones requesting that the K162 spawns at some point, regardless of whether or not someone jumps that hole. Under the current devblog proposal those K162 spawns don't ever happen if the other side isn't jumped, thereby reducing overall connections. We've been pretty vocal about ensuring that they spawn somehow. Hardly the "anti-pvp" response you're implying.

Wipe your chin, there's some drool there.

I'm right behind you

Alundil
Rolled Out
#166 - 2014-08-08 14:15:56 UTC
Adrienn Tiwake wrote:
Yeah, please don't add a timer for a fresh unscanned wormhole static. With all the other lower mass wormholes spawning it will only make things that much more difficult.

Nope - that needs to happen and thankfully the devs are looking for ways to ensure that it does. Wspace doesn't get to control what spawns where and we're losing some control over how and what we can cycle/respawn. 00 doesn't get to see a wh, say nah that's not the flavor I'm looking for (read: not a direct HS connection "cuz mah moongoo") and simply ignore it without any exposure at all.

Welcome to a new and more connected New Eden. See you soon, toodles.

I'm right behind you

Necharo Rackham
V0LTA
WE FORM V0LTA
#167 - 2014-08-08 14:39:07 UTC
CCP Lebowski wrote:
Traiori wrote:
Does the K162 spawn when you jump through the hole or can probes detect it before then?

Does the life of the wormhole now start when you jump through or, as at present, when you initiate warp to the grid it's on?
So the only change that has been made is to when the K162 signature is visible or scannable. Wormhole lifetime still begins as soon as someone initiates warp to its grid.


This is still quite bad on its own because it will mean that the effective lifetime of some connections will be far less than it would have been otherwise (think empire connections to 'deadly unknown' that is only jumped through after 8 hours of first being warped to).
Alundil
Rolled Out
#168 - 2014-08-08 14:47:12 UTC
Necharo Rackham wrote:
CCP Lebowski wrote:
Traiori wrote:
Does the K162 spawn when you jump through the hole or can probes detect it before then?

Does the life of the wormhole now start when you jump through or, as at present, when you initiate warp to the grid it's on?
So the only change that has been made is to when the K162 signature is visible or scannable. Wormhole lifetime still begins as soon as someone initiates warp to its grid.


This is still quite bad on its own because it will mean that the effective lifetime of some connections will be far less than it would have been otherwise (think empire connections to 'deadly unknown' that is only jumped through after 8 hours of first being warped to).

The devs have stated that they are looking into some way to spawn that K162 regardless of whether it's been jumped or not after some tbd span of time. So you're concern looks like it's being taken into consideration.

I'm right behind you

Anize Oramara
The Arch Dashing Dashers
#169 - 2014-08-08 15:38:55 UTC
Alundil wrote:
Anize Oramara wrote:
unimatrix0030 wrote:
This change is good it restores balance between hunter and prey.
I would rather have the situation before oddesey but i take this.
The timers for the spawn of the k162 as sugested will be quite important though.
To less they prey will be hurt to much, to high and pve will be to easy.
My best geuss is between 1-4 hours.

anything past 5 minutes wont make a difference. if you are rage rolling and hunting farmers why on earth would you wait even 1minute on the hole? you rage roll, fleet warp your entire fleet including caps on to the hole and you have Invulnerability for however long this 'timer' is set. what you are suggesting is 1 to 4 hours of Invulnerability from the guys on the other side. and once you do jump your scouts through its a moot point anyways and the guys on the other side still needs to scan down and form up / send out pings for the new sig so you are STILL safe.

looking at the suggestions it looks almost like the pvp guys are more risk averse than the farmers hahaha!

actually with a zero min timer the pvp guys already have a HUGE advantage as if they fleet warp with caps they can close the hole before the guys on the other side have even SCANNED DOWN THE SIG.

holy risk averse pvp batman. no wonder they want to implement the mass based rolling thingy. they just gave 100% safe pvp to the people that need it the least.

never knew you guys were such cowards hahaha!

I'm pretty sure you misunderstand the change as proposed as it relates to hole rolling (ie - this really doesn't relate to hole rolling). I'm equally certain that you misunderstand the change as proposed as it relates to PvP (ie - this really doesn't relate to PvP directly).
Furthermore - the PvP groups are the ones requesting that the K162 spawns at some point, regardless of whether or not someone jumps that hole. Under the current devblog proposal those K162 spawns don't ever happen if the other side isn't jumped, thereby reducing overall connections. We've been pretty vocal about ensuring that they spawn somehow. Hardly the "anti-pvp" response you're implying.

Wipe your chin, there's some drool there.

wow, I don't think you can misinterpret my post any more if you tried. congrats.

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3

Villiars
#170 - 2014-08-08 15:47:52 UTC
I promise that I'll be doing my part to open every wormhole I see.
Udonor
Doomheim
#171 - 2014-08-08 16:37:24 UTC
Sounds really good except I think signature detection should require active probes -- not just some solo miner gazing out a dirty porthole.



Udonor
Doomheim
#172 - 2014-08-08 16:41:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Udonor
But if you are trying to make WH more exciting (= more nonconsensual combat)

...how about giving sleepers more of an intrusion flavor?

Specifically a chance of swarming to patrolling open signatures

and of course a modest chance of swarming to any combat and in unpredictable numbers (nothing like when PVP battle gains an extra side)
Udonor
Doomheim
#173 - 2014-08-08 17:53:25 UTC
Villiars wrote:
I promise that I'll be doing my part to open every wormhole I see.


Well the change would be that Opening would require jumping through them.

If you are not stealth that means they may see you your ship type etc. Minor bit of intelligence.



But a bigger impact would be that as proposed WH systems could be left SAFE from gankers (BOO! HISS!) for mining and sleepers

#1 you don't open your new statics and outbound WH until business absolutely requires

#2 you have no K162 showing and all signatures are account


(ROFLMAO -- usually at least 1 guy in corp with more than 10 members that gets severe virtual claustrophobia if its not open though. They feel compelled to jump out for a couple minutes for no reason but to ensure it will open)
Udonor
Doomheim
#174 - 2014-08-08 17:54:14 UTC
Udonor wrote:
Villiars wrote:
I promise that I'll be doing my part to open every wormhole I see.


Well the change would be that Opening would require jumping through them.

If you are not stealth that means they may see you your ship type etc. Minor bit of intelligence.



But a bigger impact would be that as proposed WH systems could be left SAFE from gankers (BOO! HISS!) for mining and sleepers

#1 you don't open your new statics and outbound WH until business absolutely requires

#2 you have no K162 showing and all signatures are account


(ROFLMAO -- usually at least 1 guy in corp with more than 10 members that gets severe virtual claustrophobia if its not open though. They feel compelled to jump out for a couple minutes for no reason but to ensure it will open even under threats of death)

BoBoZoBo
MGroup9
Quantum Cafe
#175 - 2014-08-08 18:21:44 UTC  |  Edited by: BoBoZoBo
Love most of the WH changes, not to sure of this one.

It just does not make sense at it's core, and I do not think the end result will add so much to gameplay that it justifies making something so illogical.

1) Game-Play / Role-Pay / Logic Bomb
- No wormhole exists with only one opening.
- No end should be the "first" or "primary."
- If a WH adjoins two (or more) places, why is any side artificially barred from discovering the hole before the other?
- How is the magical appearance of the other side to scanners justified in a role-play sense?
- Should not all pilots in EVE be constantly aware of their surroundings, especially in the space they choose to play in. (i.e. presence / lack of other intelligence tools (local) in that space should not be a consideration.)

2) The "Problem"
The Blog mentions that the scan overlay enhanced this problem... This is incorrect.

The scan overlay created the problem. The solution is as artificial as the problem. The scan overlay was a good idea that was (is) overzealous and poorly implemented.


TL;DR - No Bueno on many levels

Primary Test Subject • SmackTalker Elite

Ang Min
CPD Adventures Pte. Ltd.
#176 - 2014-08-08 21:38:17 UTC
BoBoZoBo wrote:
Love most of the WH changes, not to sure of this one.

It just does not make sense at it's core, and I do not think the end result will add so much to gameplay that it justifies making something so illogical.

1) Game-Play / Role-Pay / Logic Bomb
- No wormhole exists with only one opening.
- No end should be the "first" or "primary."
- If a WH adjoins two (or more) places, why is any side artificially barred from discovering the hole before the other?
- How is the magical appearance of the other side to scanners justified in a role-play sense?
- Should not all pilots in EVE be constantly aware of their surroundings, especially in the space they choose to play in. (i.e. presence / lack of other intelligence tools (local) in that space should not be a consideration.)

2) The "Problem"
The Blog mentions that the scan overlay enhanced this problem. This is incorrect. the scan overlay created the problem. The solution is as artificial as the problem. The scan overlay was a good idea that was (is) overzealous and poorly implemented.


TL;DR - No Bueno on many levels


You are exactly right. Sadly, CCP seems to be ignoring you and the hundreds of customers here and in the previous thread (https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=331782) that have overwhelmingly rejected this change, and expressed their desire to simply revert back to the pre-Odyssey mechanics. They are simply going to ram this down our throats regardless...feels like Incarna all over again. :(
Alundil
Rolled Out
#177 - 2014-08-08 21:44:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Alundil
Anize Oramara wrote:
Alundil wrote:
Anize Oramara wrote:
unimatrix0030 wrote:
This change is good it restores balance between hunter and prey.
I would rather have the situation before oddesey but i take this.
The timers for the spawn of the k162 as sugested will be quite important though.
To less they prey will be hurt to much, to high and pve will be to easy.
My best geuss is between 1-4 hours.

anything past 5 minutes wont make a difference. if you are rage rolling and hunting farmers why on earth would you wait even 1minute on the hole? you rage roll, fleet warp your entire fleet including caps on to the hole and you have Invulnerability for however long this 'timer' is set. what you are suggesting is 1 to 4 hours of Invulnerability from the guys on the other side. and once you do jump your scouts through its a moot point anyways and the guys on the other side still needs to scan down and form up / send out pings for the new sig so you are STILL safe.

looking at the suggestions it looks almost like the pvp guys are more risk averse than the farmers hahaha!

actually with a zero min timer the pvp guys already have a HUGE advantage as if they fleet warp with caps they can close the hole before the guys on the other side have even SCANNED DOWN THE SIG.

holy risk averse pvp batman. no wonder they want to implement the mass based rolling thingy. they just gave 100% safe pvp to the people that need it the least.

never knew you guys were such cowards hahaha!

I'm pretty sure you misunderstand the change as proposed as it relates to hole rolling (ie - this really doesn't relate to hole rolling). I'm equally certain that you misunderstand the change as proposed as it relates to PvP (ie - this really doesn't relate to PvP directly).
Furthermore - the PvP groups are the ones requesting that the K162 spawns at some point, regardless of whether or not someone jumps that hole. Under the current devblog proposal those K162 spawns don't ever happen if the other side isn't jumped, thereby reducing overall connections. We've been pretty vocal about ensuring that they spawn somehow. Hardly the "anti-pvp" response you're implying.

Wipe your chin, there's some drool there.

wow, I don't think you can misinterpret my post any more if you tried. congrats.

No, your point was ********. No one in the right mind, and certainly not PvP corps, warps capital ships to a hole that has't been jumped and scouted.
Additionally, as I mentioned, it's the PvP corps that are requesting that the K162 holes spawn. In fact, we'd probably prefer (I know I'd prefer) the existing mechanic of you warp to it and it spawns on the other side. (If Odyssey hadn't happened and screwed with scanning and added the bear protector called the discovery scanner this woudn't even be an issue). That part is fine. We're arguing against CCP's initial bear friendly idea of never spawn a K162 unless the hole is jumped. How you mistake that for "risk averse PvPers" is beyond me. We'd rather the wh spawn just as it does now. Otherwise (and as proposed) it IS a safer thing for the bears as they don't run the risk of opening holes they don't want to open).

Good grief.

I'm right behind you

Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#178 - 2014-08-08 23:25:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Rroff
Alundil wrote:
We're arguing against CCP's initial bear friendly idea of never spawn a K162 unless the hole is jumped. How you mistake that for "risk averse PvPers" is beyond me. We'd rather the wh spawn just as it does now. Otherwise (and as proposed) it IS a safer thing for the bears as they don't run the risk of opening holes they don't want to open).

Good grief.


I don't think it was CCP's intention that k162s never opened unless jumped I believe they just either omitted to add further information on the dev blog as to the nature of those mechanics or hadn't got that far along the development of the feature yet to have a method in mind (or decided on a specific solution).
Alundil
Rolled Out
#179 - 2014-08-09 00:00:55 UTC
Rroff wrote:
Alundil wrote:
We're arguing against CCP's initial bear friendly idea of never spawn a K162 unless the hole is jumped. How you mistake that for "risk averse PvPers" is beyond me. We'd rather the wh spawn just as it does now. Otherwise (and as proposed) it IS a safer thing for the bears as they don't run the risk of opening holes they don't want to open).

Good grief.


I don't think it was CCP's intention that k162s never opened unless jumped I believe they just either omitted to add further information on the dev blog as to the nature of those mechanics or hadn't got that far along the development of the feature yet to have a method in mind (or decided on a specific solution).

Perhaps, though stating in the Dev blog that they wouldn't spawn until jumped was pretty clear. :) or so I thought.

I'm right behind you

Adrienn Tiwake
Aideron Robotics
#180 - 2014-08-09 04:49:27 UTC
Alundil wrote:
Adrienn Tiwake wrote:
Yeah, please don't add a timer for a fresh unscanned wormhole static. With all the other lower mass wormholes spawning it will only make things that much more difficult.

Nope - that needs to happen and thankfully the devs are looking for ways to ensure that it does. Wspace doesn't get to control what spawns where and we're losing some control over how and what we can cycle/respawn. 00 doesn't get to see a wh, say nah that's not the flavor I'm looking for (read: not a direct HS connection "cuz mah moongoo") and simply ignore it without any exposure at all.

Welcome to a new and more connected New Eden. See you soon, toodles.


I know much less about nullsec than wormhole space... I joined this corp like two weeks ago, prior to that I lived in wormhole space basically since I started playing eve (a couple years ago). My alliance developed tripwire, if that counts for anything. I understand wormhole life, and stand by my thoughts on the change with the idea that I will life in wormhole space once again eventually.